Is Catholicsm and Islam compatible?

[De_Maria]

No. He did not. He claimed to be a prophet of the same God that Abraham worshiped.

We are not disputing that he made claims. We are disputing that the religion he established worships the God of Abraham.

Let’s look at his claims.

Prophet means “speaks the word of God”.
Do you believe that Mohammed really spoke the word of the God of Abraham?
Do you believe that Mohammed is really a prophet of the God of Abraham?
Do you believe that Mohammed really saw an angel which was sent by the God of Abraham?

I’m assuming you answered “no” to all those. But you still believe he worshipped the God of Abraham and taught others to do so? There’s a disconnect there.

We have one President of the United States.

Democrats say one thing about him.

Republicans say something different about him.

That does not mean that we have 2 Presidents of the United States. Instead, it means that different people say different things about him.

Not a good analogy.

Let’s say that Joe is tall and slim. But Bob is short and fat.
Joe steals Bob’s identity, moves to another country and goes around saying he’s Bob.

All the people that know Bob, say, “Bob is short and fat.”
All the people the know faux Bob, say, “Bob is tall and slim.”

That is what has happened here. Mohammed was not sent by God. He claimed that he was. But the God that he claims sent him is totally different than the God that we know by that name.

And, we know that Mohammed lied about every other point in his purported revelation. So, no. There’s no evidence that they worship the same God. There’s only evidence that they CLAIM to do so. And that’s a whole 'nother topic.

 

[Reuben_J]

You misunderstand me, Fr. I only said he introduced a new god, in essence. His claim is false. I think that is the argument here.

If his claim is false, then essentially he is introducing a new god, albeit saying it is the God of Abraham.

For illustration, I tried to bring up other religions that make similar claim, or I may add, Joe Muhammad in 2017 makes the same claim that he is the descendent of maybe Isau, and proceeds to list his religious doctrines which among other things, saying that Christians were tricked by God. Jesus actually did not die on the cross, God saved him from death as he would save all his prophets. He continues to say that the Bible, though was God’s revelation, did not stand the test of time, corrupted and contains errors and lie. Thus Joe Muhammad now now is going to correct all the mistakes with his new religion.

According to your logic, Joe Muhammad does not introduce a new god but worship the God of Abraham and therefore worship the same God, the one God, as was his dog five years ago is still that same dog today, does not matter whether it is hungry or not, it is the same dog. Only we know it is that same dog, unless if it had died and he adopted a new one. Surely before taking it as the same dog, we can ascertain the simple fact that this is the same old dog. Did we do that with Muhammad? Certainly no.

You argument simply hangs on Muhammad’s claim. I said it is more of a politically correct stance, seeing there is no inclusion of trying to even going through the credibility of that claim.

 

[Reuben_J]

Just to be clear, while saying the argument is weak, I am also referring to what St. Paul said that whoever preaches a different Gospel is a false prophet.

Muhammad is preaching Christ NOT crucified. Not only he contradicted the Gospel but his teaching nullifies what Jesus had done on the cross and which really matters.

The person who wants to give a message that deny the crucifixion CANNOT be the God whom we worship.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

So the question then arises, “Is the old forum the same as the new forum?”

Well, you all aren’t speaking colloquially here. There have been two different platforms for the same forum. It’s still the same forum…Catholic Answers Forum. But what people say about it is different. How people use it is different. The rules are different. But it’s still Catholic Answers Forum.

 

[HarryStotle]

The Church has articulated that both the Jews and the Muslims worship with us the God of Abraham. Period. The laity are to assent – and that is it. No discussion. No argument. End of topic.

The “articulation” you speak of isn’t at the level of infallible dogma and likely creates other issues.

There are two places where it might be claimed that the Church has “articulated” its position on Islam and God.

One is in Lumen Gentium…

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

The word adore for what the “Moslems” do with regard to “the one, merciful God” is a rather peculiar choice of words. So Moslems “acknowledge” the Creator, recognize the "one, merciful God as mankind’s judge. What isn’t said here is telling, since nothing is mentioned about the Qur’an, Mohammed or Islam as a religious system, only to “Moslems,” rather loosely stated.

The other is in Nostra Aetate.

1. The Church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has also spoken to men. They strive to submit themselves without reserve to the bidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they worship Jesus as a prophet, his virgin Mother they also honor, and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the day of judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead. For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer, alms-deeds and fasting.
   …The sacred Council now pleads with all to forget the past, and urges that a sincere effort be made to achieve mutual understanding; for the benefit of all men, let them together preserve and promote peace, …

Here, there is a more substantial treatment of the question. What is puzzling, however, is that the claim is made that “they worship Jesus as a prophet.” Worship, according to Islam is due only to Allah, so to worship any human being would be considered blasphemous. This puts into question the supposedly authoritative claim that Muslims “worship God,” since the word “worship” in this statement doesn’t appear to mean the more specific latria, or worship due to God alone, but rather seems to be implying dulia as in honour or veneration due to servants of God. The statement seems to be hedging what it appears to be claiming about worship by using the word rather loosely.

The intent of the Declaration appears to be finding mutual ground by not allowing differences to stand in the way. The urging “… that a sincere effort be made to achieve mutual understanding…” would appear to set the tone for the statement as a whole.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

If you were a theologian, you would not only know that you are wrong…you would know the extent to which you are wrong.

 

[HarryStotle]

Okay. It is still “Catholic Answers Forum,” but is it the SAME forum? There are many ways that it is different, so it cannot obviously be the same in all respects. At what point does it become different enough to no longer be the same? That question can reasonably be entertained.

Likewise, it might be said that Muslims and Christians both worship God, but is it the same God they both worship? That question is a legitimate question, regardless of whether some claim there shall be no discussion, no argument, and that we are conclusively at the end of the story.

This is the crucial question: No one is doubting that both religions worship God. Is it the SAME God, however?

At what point does the divergence of conceptions lead us to conclude “two Gods?” Never?

 

[De_Maria]

It is because (as I tried to explain to you earlier) that there is a historic continuity between the God of Abraham and the God of the New Testament and the God who would later be mentioned in the Koran.

No, there isn’t. There is merely the claim of such and the details of that claim are riddled with error.

 

[HarryStotle]

If you were a theologian, you would not only know that you are wrong…you would know the extent to which you are wrong.

Sounds like a “No True

Spoiler

Scotsman

Theologian” Fallacy.

 

[FrDavid96]

…
You argument simply hangs on Muhammad’s claim. I said it is more of a politically correct stance, seeing there is no inclusion of trying to even going through the credibility of that claim.

No. You’re still just twisting my words to make it seem as if I’m saying something different, something you can then easily dispute. Instead, read through what I’ve written.

My position does not “hang on Muhammad’s claim”. It is a simple statement of fact that Mohammed did not invent a new God. It is not a position so much as it is a simple observation of a fact—there is a difference. He invented new things to say about the same God that the Jews and Christians worshipped—i.e. the God of Abraham.

I’ve already repeatedly said that whether or not there is a direct blood line between Ishmael and Mohammed is irrelevant. Yet that doesn’t stop people from trying to disprove it. Which only proves the absence of any critical thinking.

Whether you like it or not, whether it is convenient for you or not, the fact is that the God of which Mohammed spoke is the same God of Abraham. He did not invent a new God. When Mohammed said “God” he meant the God of Abraham; not any other.

Islam itself vehemently insists that their God is not a different God than the One of the Jews and Christians.

And apparently you haven’t read the numerous times that I’ve made the distinction between the 2 questions:

1. What God do they worship?
2. What do they say about that God?

You are still conflating those 2 different questions. You are attempting to answer question 1 by actually answering question 2. That is simply logical error.

 

[FrDavid96]

Just to be clear, while saying the argument is weak, I am also referring to what St. Paul said that whoever preaches a different Gospel is a false prophet.

Muhammad is preaching Christ NOT crucified. Not only he contradicted the Gospel but his teaching nullifies what Jesus had done on the cross and which really matters.

The person who wants to give a message that deny the crucifixion CANNOT be the God whom we worship.

According to your logic, Mohammed isn’t even talking about the same Jesus Christ as we are. Since he says different things about Christ, then he must necessarily be talking about a different person altogether.

You can’t have it both ways.

 

[FrDavid96]

The “articulation” you speak of isn’t at the level of infallible dogma and likely creates other issues.

There are two places where it might be claimed that the Church has “articulated” its position on Islam and God.
…

Which proves nothing more than your own ignorance of the subject.

A while back, I suggested that members here to to the Vatican website and actually read what the Church has to say about this matter.

You obviously have not done that, since you claim that there are only 2 examples.

 

[FrDavid96]

Ultimately, it’s never helpful to play the card of, for example, “You’re not a theologian, and so you’re too uneducated/ignorant to be involved in a discussion and should just be silent and listen to smarter, more educated people tell you the way things are.” That approach has never been lastingly effective in either catechesis or rhetorical persuasion. It smacks of clericalism (which Pope Francis has roundly condemned, and rightly so); it smacks of intellectual arrogance.

No.

There are times when we need to accept the simple fact that some people actually do know what they are talking about and some people do not know what they are talking about.

Courts admit “expert witnesses.” These are people who are, yes, experts in their field. Courts accept the fact that some people simply understand a given topic because of their education and their actual professional practice of a given field.

Courts do not admit as expert witnesses people who say “I feel that this is how a thing might be” or “last night I read a wiki article on this…”

Universities hire experts in their fields to teach classes. They don’t hire people who have no actual knowledge of a given discipline and say “just do some google searches each night and teach the class the next day.”

No, it’s not clericalism to admit the simple fact that some people actually understand theology and some people do not.

More to the point, the real expert here is the Catholic Church. The Church knows and affirms and teaches that Islam and Christianity worship the same God of Abraham.

I will take the “expert testimony” of the Catholic Church over someone’s “I feel…” statements on the internet any day of the week.

As far as the Church is concerned, there is no doubt on this subject. It is not a thing considered open to debate. It is a known fact. It’s really that simple.

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben_J:

Just to be clear, while saying the argument is weak, I am also referring to what St. Paul said that whoever preaches a different Gospel is a false prophet.

Muhammad is preaching Christ NOT crucified. Not only he contradicted the Gospel but his teaching nullifies what Jesus had done on the cross and which really matters.

The person who wants to give a message that deny the crucifixion CANNOT be the God whom we worship.

According to your logic, Mohammed isn’t even talking about the same Jesus Christ as we are. Since he says different things about Christ, then he must necessarily be talking about a different person altogether.

You can’t have it both ways.

The trend in debating Islam now as more Christians begin to dig deeper into Islam, is that Islamic Jesus whom they call Isa, is different from the Christian Jesus Christ.

I am following this and see how far it goes. Like I said, I want to see Islam/Muhammad connection with the God of Abraham and also Jesus Christ. So far there is no evidence to say there is. There is no scriptural nor historical reference, only purported revelations given to Muhammad. Christians cannot believe that these revelations, on which Islam stands, to be from God. It only serves Satan interest to tell the people that Jesus did not die on the cross to save them from their sin, not God since Jesus said that this truth (crucifixion) must reach to the whole world (paraphrased).

 

[HarryStotle]

A while back, I suggested that members here to to the Vatican website and actually read what the Church has to say about this matter.

You obviously have not done that, since you claim that there are only 2 examples.

I didn’t say there were “only” two places. These were the most representative that I could find. They are, however, the only two references to Islam or Moslems from the canons, doctrines or decrees of the Church stemming from Vatican II. Prior to that, any declarations would not have been as, shall we say, “open” to Islam. Anything since would likely follow the tone set by Vatican II.

Please provide at least two other official decrees or documents that are official statements of the position of the Church on the matter and that better support your claims. I’ve offered an acceptable starting place with two of the most representative examples of the Church’s current perspective. If you don’t agree that they are representative, please cite counter examples.

I have not found a great deal of material on the Vatican website on this subject. It isn’t clear to me that letters from the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue as gestures of kindness are necessarily reflective of authoritative Church teaching since they would attempt to minimize differences and enhance potential points of agreement. The language used would be cautious and muted. The writers of those messages would not be stressing the finer points of dogma, especially since it wouldn’t be good lead material if you were attempting to open up dialogue.

On a side note, you may want to study those letters to learn what NOT to say when you attempt to dialogue with others who see things differently from your point of view. I mean imagine the state of inter-religious dialogue if the Pontifical Council had used language such as you did here to open interfaith dialogue…

Is Catholicsm and Islam compatible? - #152 by FrDavid96
I cannot believe the absolutely infantile attempts at arguments I read from people here.

Truly, the level of logic and the level of common sense thinking displayed by people posting things here is below the reasoning of a kindergartener.

The average 5 year old knows the difference between a person (on the one hand) and what someone says about a person (on the other hand).

Are there any 4 year olds out there who can try to explain this very simple fact to certain people posting here?

Please…if you are out there, try to explain it to them.

Or the classic…

It’s really childish that you cannot see how there is a complete lack of any logic or sense to what you are claiming.

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid96:

More to the point, the real expert here is the Catholic Church. The Church knows and affirms and teaches that Islam and Christianity worship the same God of Abraham.

Not to be picayune on this point, but none of the documents I’ve seen specifically say “Islam” worships the same God of Abraham. They all say “Moslems” or “Muslims,” and seem to hesitate saying anything about what Islam or Mohammed say or teach. It may be that many Moslem (or Muslim) believers as individuals present slightly different views of God than those promulgated in the Qur’an or Hadiths.

And, as I pointed out earlier, the word “worship” used in those documents seems to imply reverence as in dulia, since the claim is made in at least one of those documents that Muslims “worship” Jesus as a prophet. So nothing is stated about “worship” of God as in the technical term latria which is worship reserved for God alone.

I find it interesting that you never seem to address my points specifically, but keep punting back to the Church or theologians. As a theologian, I would expect your role to be one of educator of the supposedly ignorant ones, of which I happily accept as descriptive of my state of knowledge. What was it the Samaritan woman said, that even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table?

Your “points” as you call them are all based on a false-premise.

The false premise is (as I keep trying to tell you) that you confuse 2 different issues or questions.

You confuse the question of What God? with the question of what is said about God?

Until you understand what those questions actually mean, there is no point in trying to go further.

Since you insist on confusing the two questions, nothing you say or ask has any merit.

 

[HarryStotle]

The false premise is (as I keep trying to tell you) that you confuse 2 different issues or questions.

You confuse the question of What God? with the question of what is said about God?

Until you understand what those questions actually mean, there is no point in trying to go further.

Since you insist on confusing the two questions, nothing you say or ask has any merit.

I suppose, then, that you will help matters out by explaining my confusion.

Let’s simplify the situation…

The crucial question is whether the God of islam is the same God as the God of Christianity.

You say that I confuse the question of, What God? with the question of, What is said about God?

Explain to me how the What God? question is to be answered vis a vis Islam without first answering the question of What Islam says about God?

In order to know anything about the God of Islam, it seems absolutely necessary to ask what is said about God by Islam.

Ergo, the What God? question depends ENTIRELY upon the What is said about God by Islam? question.

I don’t see how you can answer the first question without first answering the second, unless you want to unilaterally impose upon Islam the answer to the What God? question by completely circumventing what Islam has to say about its God.

In that case, you can insist that the question of What God? has nothing to do with the question of What is said about God? by Islam.

According to you, then, what Islam has to say about God is completely irrelevant to the question of what God Islam believes in. Peculiar position you have put yourself in, no? You are completely removing the believer (Islam) from what is believed by that believer (Islam) by imposing upon that believer (Islam) your concept of God from the get-go.

Yes, I can see why you suppose I am the one engaging a false premise. Your presupposition is rock-solid and immune to critique even by Islamic believers themselves. They must necessarily believe in the same God as Christians because you have arranged the whole thing that way from the start.

That would be why you are absolutely certain about the God of Islam because you have unilaterally imposed your conception of God upon Islam. Ergo, what Islam has to say about the God of its belief system has nothing to do with what the God is that Islam actually believes in, since you are supplying their God to them a priori and holus-bolus with no need to wait for any (name removed by moderator)ut from Islam, itself.

Way to do other people’s thinking for them! That way you can’t possibly be wrong, since they necessarily have to agree with you.

 

[Benadam]

K so, I m thinking the Church teaches that anyone who comes to believe in one God creator of all and believes it is the God of Abraham in fact is believing in the God of Abraham. Even if they say God is the sun. The question for me is, a monotheistic belief system must express implicitly or explicitly that it is not the God of Abraham they believe in for them to not be believing in the God of Abraham? Or is it still the same entity believed?

 

[Benadam]

My question above may be off topic sorry about that if so.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I think the question can be resolved in a straight forward manner.

At the bottom of every page of this forum, one reads:

DISCLAIMER: The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. For official apologetics resources please visit www.catholic.com.

On this matter, Catholic Answers has spoken, in a piece titled: Do Muslims Worship the Same God Catholics Do? , the apologist, Tim Staples [absolutely correctly, I will note as both an ordained cleric and as a theologian who holds the mandatum] clearly states:

Thus, we Catholics have to be careful to distinguish between the fact that Muslims believe in the one true God “living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,” and the fact that they get it wrong—profoundly wrong—when it comes to both who God has revealed himself to be in the New Testament, and what he has taught his people.

Do Muslims Worship the Same God Catholics Do? | Catholic Answers Magazine

Thus the lay people on this thread who are trying to offer all sorts of erroneous thoughts at variance to hierarchy of the Church and her clergy therefore must yield their “opinions,” to an “official apologetic resource” published on the Catholic Answers website according to the Forum’s own precise disclaimer

I will point out that the ordained clergy on this thread have, in fact, articulated precisely what Catholic Answers says.

Have I read the disclaimer correctly, @camoderator? That Tim Staples statement is to be accepted as definitive from the perspective of Catholic Answers and binding upon this forum? If so, the question is answered in a way no one can object, given the authority of Catholic Answers apologists which reaches across the various Catholic Answers websites.

Thank you.