Is Catholicsm and Islam compatible?

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MonteRCMS said:
Did you all read this article?
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Enough of it to know that it’s irrelevant to what I’ve been saying here.

It doesn’t change the simple truth of the matter. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all worship the One God of Abraham.

That is a fact which we Catholics recognize or observe. It’s not a matter of anyone’s opinion. It’s really not a theological question either. It is a mere recognition of a plain fact.

You do not seem to understand something: no matter how unpleasant you might find Islam, that does not mean that they worship a different God. You insist on trying to equate those two very different issues.

You can link to anti-Moslem polemics all day long. The internet has plenty of that, I’m quite sure. It won’t change the fact that you are confusing two different things. Until you understand that, you will likewise continue to completely misunderstand everything I’ve written here.
 
This is the biggest stumbling block–the fallacy that because Muslims believe a different revelation and that there are Muslims who do bad things in God’s name, it can’t really be God who they acknowledge. It’s primary error rests in forgetting that God can be acknowledged apart from His revelation. In some ways this error comes from a zeal for God’s name–we’d rather see a non-entity’s name abused than God’s. I made some posts earlier in the thread that have mostly gone ignored (no arguments have even been offered against them) that you may find helpful in bolstering your point.

How we can say we are talking about the same God is posts 85 and 86 (it’s not just based on the fact they say they worship the same God Abraham did, but rather what the put forth regarding His essence). Also, to show this assertion is not just based on a false irenicism associated with Vatican II, I provided past assertions from authorities in the Church and asked for any authorities to the contrary (I have never seen a single one) in posts 238 and 239.
 
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FrDavid96 said:
Unfortunately, you are not.

You are not advocating any “truth” at all.

What you advocate is ignorance and hatred.

If you want to stand up for the truth, you must first learn what that truth is.

The fact that the God of Christians and Muslims is the one same God of Abraham had nothing to do with wars and blood and people getting aggravated.

Just because you don’t like Muslims (which you clearly don’t) does not give you any sort of moral high ground to take a fact and alter it for the convenience of your rhetoric.

You are more like the Muslim caricature you draw than you realize.
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You just switched from discussing philosophy to a personal attack on HarryStolle. You both were making terrific points, and I was looking forward to your rebuttal…then I got this.

I was disappointed…
 
No, that was not a personal attack.

It was an attack on what the person posted, an attack on what that person tried to use to prove the point.

It was not in any way personal.

There is a difference between attacking the person and attacking (ie arguing against) the methods that person uses.

Note the difference, please.
 
Muslims think they are superior to Christians. Anyone who is not Muslim is of the slave category to them. Quit trying to think our God is their God. They believe in some kind of God who grants suicide bombers a bunch of virgins when they die.
 
Joe1 said:
How can Muslims and Catholics believe in the same God when they claim that their God says kill all infidels (which they label Catholics as)?
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Let me try from the beginning.

Muslims and Catholics can believe in the same God even if they make contradicting claims about God because the contradiction lies in the weak mind of the human and not in the nature of God.

A color blind person might say that a red stop sign and a green leaf are the same color. A person with normal vision will say that they are different colors.

The color blind person is wrong when they say that the stop sign and the leaf are the same color, they are wrong if they say “green is the color for stop”, but they are right when they stop for stop signs but not for leaves. They are certainly right when they say “stop signs mean stop your car” and “leaves grow on trees”.

The colorblind person’s error in understanding the colors of the stop sign and the leaf does not prevent them from identifying and distinguishing between a stop sign and a leaf. They may be confused about the properties of these objects, and they might say something erroneous like “the stop sign is the color of a U.S. dollar bill”, but they are not wrong when they recognize a stop sign and press the brakes, or admire the leaves growing on an oak tree in the spring.

Muslims have many erroneous ideas about God, they make errors when describing God, and these errors may even lead them into immoral actions, but they are not wrong when they say that there is no God but the God of Abraham.

They are certainly wrong that Mohammed is His prophet, but then so is the colorblind person when they say that spring grass is the color of a stop sign.
 
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FrDavid96 said:
No, that was not a personal attack.

It was an attack on what the person posted, an attack on what that person tried to use to prove the point.

It was not in any way personal.

There is a difference between attacking the person and attacking (ie arguing against) the methods that person uses.

Note the difference, please.
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With all due respect, and I have to admit candidly that I am rapidly losing that respect, these…
Just because you don’t like Muslims (which you clearly don’t) does not give you any sort of moral high ground to take a fact and alter it for the convenience of your rhetoric.

You are more like the Muslim caricature you draw than you realize.
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Were indeed personal attacks, by any valid definition of the term.

Your comments also put into jeopardy our assurance in your capacity to distinguish truth from fiction and fact from personal opinion and your bona fides with regard to both.

Not that that assurance wasn’t already strained to the gills, because it was.

To return to your “factual” argument – since your capacity to recognize and use facts is now seriously in question. You claimed that Islam worshiping the God of Abraham is simply a matter of fact. Your argument might be put succinctly as…

The God of Abraham is, in fact, the true God who is the one God whom Christians worship.
Muslims, in fact, worship the God of Abraham.
Therefore, Muslims, in fact, worship the true God who is the one God whom Christians worship.

That is, basically, your argument which you claim is a matter of pure fact…

The problem is that you disallow other facts, which when consistently applied in the same form as you employ, those facts prove the exact opposite.

Same form as your argument:

Jesus Christ is the true God and is the one God whom Christians worship.
Muslims do not worship Jesus Christ as the one true God.
Therefore, Muslims do not worship the one true God who is the one true God whom Christians worship.

Applied consistently your “factual” argument proves both X and ~X, therefore it cannot be a definitive proof. The facts, themselves do not amount to an argument.

I have no interest in rejoining this debate, but when untruths are told and the “methods” used by that person are coercive in nature rather than merely speaking the truth, someone needs to speak up and simply clarify the facts. As you said, it is illegitimate to employ a method that will “take a fact and alter it for the convenience of your rhetoric.” Just holding you to the same standard.
 
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When the Mohammedans speak of the Gd of Abraham Issac and Jacob or the Creator they speak of the true Gd. When they pray to this Gd the true Gd hears their prayers. But this would be true even if a Hindu or Buddhist. That is where it ends.

However, Allah is not the Gd of the Jews or Christians. Allah has wives some of whom are his own daughters (al Ussa and al Manat). The whole Satanic Verses controversy is about this incident! Allah is a PHYSICAL BEING with real hands (he has two and both are on his right hand side).

Mohammed was possessed by demons. Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Abu Dawd all are clear that Mohammed was possessed by iblis (satan). Mohammed himself says that he listened to satan because satan tell him to do good. Mohammed claimed Satan became a Muslim. Part of the Qur’an were dictated while Mohammed was possessed.

We do not know which gd a Muslim at any given time hails. If he calls on the gd of the Qur’an, it is very likely that the True Gd does not hear it because the gd of the Qur’an is not metaphysically the gd of the Christians or the Jews. Even the word Allah (al-Lah) is the name of an already existent pagan god (Hubal). Even the black stone of the kabaa is the fertility fetish of the Arabs.

Mohammed’s Jibril (supposed to be Gabriel) was infact his homnosexual lover Dahya al Kalabi who is the most beautiful man among the Quarashi. When a Jew saw Dahya leave Mohammed’s house and asked Mohammed about it, Mohammed told the Jew it was Dahya! Mohammed was a bisexual. Tabari makes it clear in 751 that Momo was engaged in homosexual activity with his cousins as a passive partner.

I am not making any of this up. It is all through the ahadith, Sirat and the tafsir.
 
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Please read my article on the Black Stone of the Kabaa and let me know if Allah is the same gd of the bible…
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The Black Stone in the Light of Mythos Apologetics
 
Quaestor said:
Mohammed was possessed by demons. Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Abu Dawd all are clear that Mohammed was possessed by iblis (satan). Mohammed himself says that he listened to satan because satan tell him to do good. Mohammed claimed Satan became a Muslim. Part of the Qur’an were dictated while Mohammed was possessed.
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Can I have written proof of this please! Not trying to be disrespectful but I’m intrigued as to where this information came from
 
So that you are aware Mohammed getting possessed is actually related in many ahadith narrations. The back ground is found in paganism and a type of magic worked by witch doctors in hinduism which uses the frond of a palm tree to cast magic spells of possession. You might find these “offerings” left on the roadside in India to put a hex on someone. This same paganism and spell casting is found in the ahadith. What is not translated into English is quite telling. Mohammed used to “prettify” his bikini region for his wives which involved combing it to look pretty and appealing. The hair gathered from one of these “prettifying” groomings was used in the spell casting. Keep this in mind when reading these ahadith. Elsewhere, Satan’s religion is Islam according to the ahadith!
 
Narrated Aisha: that Allah's Messenger was affected by magic, so much that he used to think that he had done something which in fact, he did not do, and he invoked his Lord (for a remedy). Then (one day) he said, "O Aisha!) Do you know that Allah has advised me as to the problem I consulted Him about?" Aisha said, "O Allah's Messenger ! What's that?" He said, "Two men came to me and one of them sat at my head and the other at my feet, and one of them asked his companion, 'What is wrong with this man?' The latter replied, 'He is under the effect of magic.' The former asked, 'Who has worked magic on him?' The latter replied, 'Labid bin Al-A'sam.' The former asked, 'With what did he work the magic?' The latter replied, 'With a comb and the hair, which are stuck to the comb, and the skin of pollen of a date-palm tree.' The former asked, 'Where is that?' The latter replied, 'It is in Dharwan.' Dharwan was a well in the dwelling place of the (tribe of) Bani Zuraiq. Allah's Messenger went to that well and returned to Aisha, saying, ‘By Allah, the water (of the well) was as red as the infusion of Hinna, (1) and the date-palm trees look like the heads of devils.’ Aisha added, Allah's Messenger came to me and informed me about the well. I asked the Prophet, 'O Allah's Messenger , why didn't you take out the skin of pollen?' He said, 'As for me, Allah has cured me and I hated to draw the attention of the people to such evil (which they might learn and harm others with).' " Narrated Hisham's father: Aisha said, “Allah’s Messenger was bewitched, so he invoked Allah repeatedly requesting Him to cure him from that magic).” Hisham then narrated the above narration.
Sahih Bukhari 6391
 
Narrated Aisha:
Magic was worked on Allah’s Messenger so that he used to think that he had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not (Sufyan said: That is the hardest kind of magic as it has such an effect). Then one day he said, "O `Aisha do you know that Allah has instructed me concerning the matter I asked Him about? Two men came to me and one of them sat near my head and the other sat near my feet. The one near my head asked the other. What is wrong with this man?’ The latter replied the is under the effect of magic The first one asked, Who has worked magic on him?’ The other replied Labid bin Al-A’sam, a man from Bani Zuraiq who was an ally of the Jews and was a hypocrite.’ The first one asked, What material did he use)?’ The other replied, ‘A comb and the hair stuck to it.’ The first one asked, ‘Where (is that)?’ The other replied. ‘In a skin of pollen of a male date palm tree kept under a stone in the well of Dharwan’ ‘’ So the Prophet went to that well and took out those things and said “That was the well which was shown to me (in a dream) Its water looked like the infusion of Henna leaves and its date-palm trees looked like the heads of devils.” The Prophet added, "Then that thing was taken out’ I said (to the Prophet ) “Why do you not treat yourself with Nashra?” He said, “Allah has cured me; I dislike to let evil spread among my people.”
Sahih Bukhari 5765
 
Narrated Aisha: A man called Labid bin al-A'sam from the tribe of Bani Zaraiq worked magic on Allah's Messenger till Allah's Messenger started imagining that he had done a thing that he had not really done. One day or one night he was with us, he invoked Allah and invoked for a long period, and then said, "O Aisha! Do you know that Allah has instructed me concerning the matter I have asked him about? Two men came to me and one of them sat near my head and the other near my feet. One of them said to his companion, “What is the disease of this man?” The other replied, "He is under the effect of magic.’ The first one asked, ‘Who has worked the magic on him?’ The other replied, "Labid bin Al-A’sam.’ The first one asked, ‘What material did he use?’ The other replied, ‘A comb and the hairs stuck to it and the skin of pollen of a male date palm.’ The first one asked, ‘Where is that?’ The other replied, ‘(That is) in the well of Dharwan;’ " So Allah’s Messenger along with some of his companions went there and came back saying, “O `Aisha, the color of its water is like the infusion of Henna leaves. The tops of the date-palm trees near it are like the heads of the devils.” I asked. “O Allah’s Messenger ? Why did you not show it (to the people)?” He said, “Since Allah cured me, I disliked to let evil spread among the people.” Then he ordered that the well be filled up with earth.
Sahih Bukhari 5763
 
Be aware that Aisha, the principle in the isnad chain is none other than the six year old wife of Momo.
 
HarryStotle said:
The God of Abraham is, in fact, the true God who is the one God whom Christians worship.
Muslims, in fact, worship the God of Abraham.
Therefore, Muslims, in fact, worship the true God who is the one God whom Christians worship.

That is, basically, your argument which you claim is a matter of pure fact…
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No. It is not.

I have provided several reasons why the God they worship is the same. You’ve simply ignored them.

Mohammed did not invent any new God. He claimed to be a prophet of the same God worshipped by Christians and Jews. The God of Abraham.

If Mohammed says he believes in that God, then that’s the God he believes in. Plain and simple.

Whether or not you agree with what Mohammed says about the God of Abraham does not change anything. He still wrote about the same God.

If someone says he worships a god named “fluffy” then he worships a god named fluffy. That’s a fact.

If someone says he worships Julius Caesar as a god, then he worships Julius Caesar. That’s a fact.

If someone says he worships the old oak tree in the town park, then he worships the old oak tree in the town park. That’s a fact.
The problem is that you disallow other facts, which when consistently applied in the same form as you employ, those facts prove the exact opposite.
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No, I am not disallowing “facts” I am disallowing emotional rhetoric that has no bearing on the question itself, such as historic battles. It is absurd to claim that because 2 different people go to war with each other that they worship different deities. Such claims make no logical sense.
Same form as your argument:

Jesus Christ is the true God and is the one God whom Christians worship.
Muslims do not worship Jesus Christ as the one true God.
Therefore, Muslims do not worship the one true God who is the one true God whom Christians worship.
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Again, you get it wrong.

Substitute the word “Jews” for Moslems and the result is the same. There is no doubt that Christians and Jews worship the same God.
Applied consistently your “factual” argument proves both X and ~X, therefore it cannot be a definitive proof. The facts, themselves do not amount to an argument.
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They don’t need to. I am not arguing. I am not debating. A debate happens when reasonable people disagree on something. That’s not the case here.

I am presenting a fact. A fact of history and a fact of religion.

This is no more a subject of debate or argument than it would be if someone were to claim that Italy is not a peninsula in the Mediterranean Sea. Someone who claims it is not is simply in the wrong.

Facts are facts whether people choose to like them or not.
 
So when Mohammed says he worship Allah he is worshiping the pagan deity Allah RIGHT??? Allah was the PROPER NAME OF THE QUARASHI PAGAN DEITY. Have you read the Sirat Rasool Allah by ibn ishaq??? Have you read the God and Kings by Ishaq detailing the same? Do you know the pagan deity al-Lah had wives some of whom were his daughters…??? Was that the gd of Abraham?

You are right, Mohammed did not invent a new gd, he repurposed al-Lah as his gd of his new religion!

Have you read ANY of the Sunnah literature at all??? What is your actual expertise in Islam???

Allah is merely a dumb idol, into whose mouth Mohammed put words. When Momo wanted to have sex with his son’s wife, allah made it clear that he was giving her to Momo. Allah swelled up Zaid’s penis so that it would not enter his wife Zaynab bint Jahsh because Allah wanted Zaid to give Momo his wife Zaynab bint Jahsh. Is that the gd of Abraham who wants a son to divorce his wife so that his father can copulate with her???

Let me know…
 
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Actually, it says they believe they worship the God of Abraham.They are unaware that God is a trinity, therefore their perception of God is incomplete.
 
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