Is Catholism "Manly"

[KathleenGee]

Alot of American parishes have priests supported by women professionals. There are a number of them married whose salary is supported by their husbands.

Many men need higher income to support their families, and they are visible as lectors, acolytes, and deacons…

 

[Bluegoat]

I think Christianity always has masculine and feminine aspects, naturally enough.

I do think that a lot of Christian groups, including Catholicism, have tended to focus on some of the more feminine aspects in recent years, and focused less on the more masculine ones. And that tends to make it hard for some men to relate, and so they don’t get involved, and the problem gets worse.

So for example I think a lot of the modern Christian music is lyrically and musically more feminine; they art has tended that way to a large degree with a lot of those rosy cheeked saints, and even a lot of the devotions are more feminine in character. I think it is telling that hymns with martial themes are far out-numbered by ones with lovey-dovey or marital themes.

I’d say we’ve actually seen a loss of masculine outlets in society at large as well. I think part of that may be that some of the masculine outlets in the past may have been things that really ought not to have been restricted to one sex, and they have rightfully become open to all - governance for example. But we haven’t really had many good replacements. We seem to generally be ignoring the needs and expressions of boys and men.

I don’t think this ends up being just a gender issue either. I’m a woman, but I hate that lovey-dovey religious stuff, and I don’t tend to relate to many of the feminine forms. So we are really losing a particular type of person as well as alienating many male members.

 

[dzheremi]

Some might say to cry is a sign of weakness and not manly.

Peace, Graubo

Indeed. But this is not a zero-sum game, wherein no one can show emotion at all. It’s just a matter of what, on balance, characterizes one tradition or another. By way of illustration, I found the following quote on the website of a Greek Orthodox church:

“The tears that come after baptism are greater than baptism itself, though it may seem rash to say so. Baptism washes off those evils that were previously within us, whereas the sins committed after baptism are washed away by tears. The baptism received by us as children we have all defiled, but we cleanse it anew with our tears. If God in His love for the human race had not given us tears, those being saved would be few indeed and hard to find." (St. John of the Ladder a.k.a. St. John Climacus, c.7th century AD)

 

[Lapey]

No. I used adoration as an example in another post. I did not mention it in the post you are replying to. My point is that a mature spirituality cannot subsist on emotions and flowery language, let alone grow by them. Furthermore, I question the point of such an approach to Christianity in the first place. I considered writing that last line as a question, but I figured it would be self-evident that this is not why we approach God, whether in prayer or through fasting, or what have you. But that leads me to ask: Why have such particular displays evolved in and come to be so central to Western Christianity? As we are not trying to woo God, why is the dominant expression of apostolic Western Christianity now seemingly in the mold of (for example) Therese of Lisieux and her caressing and yearning and whatnot? That’s sensual/emotional language, and not befitting Christian devotion. Luckily, it is also entirely unnecessary in other models of the Christian faith, hence the distinction being made between “active and challenging” Eastern/Oriental Christianity, and “passive and emotional” Western Christianity (to leave male/female dynamics out of it). To my way of thinking, it’s kind of hard to yearn and pine when you’re busy doing things.

Uncle!!!

 

[Bluegoat]

No. I used adoration as an example in another post. I did not mention it in the post you are replying to. My point is that a mature spirituality cannot subsist on emotions and flowery language, let alone grow by them. Furthermore, I question the point of such an approach to Christianity in the first place. I considered writing that last line as a question, but I figured it would be self-evident that this is not why we approach God, whether in prayer or through fasting, or what have you. But that leads me to ask: Why have such particular displays evolved in and come to be so central to Western Christianity? As we are not trying to woo God, why is the dominant expression of apostolic Western Christianity now seemingly in the mold of (for example) Therese of Lisieux and her caressing and yearning and whatnot? That’s sensual/emotional language, and not befitting Christian devotion. Luckily, it is also entirely unnecessary in other models of the Christian faith, hence the distinction being made between “active and challenging” Eastern/Oriental Christianity, and “passive and emotional” Western Christianity (to leave male/female dynamics out of it). To my way of thinking, it’s kind of hard to yearn and pine when you’re busy doing things.

I don’t really respond to that way of speaking about God either, but it seems to me it is wrong to dismiss an emotional approach, just as it would be wrong to dismiss a rational approach, or an active approach. The emotions are part of our humanity just as the intellect is.

There are some people who I think have used it inappropriately, but we have seen that with the martial approach, or the ascetic approach, or the intellectual approach as well. The Devil likes to twist natural goods into perversions.

I think splitting this into an Eastern/Western thing is essentially wrong, though the East has retained the masculine more in recent years. But it certainly has the passive emotional approach as well, and the active and intellectual are well represented in the West.

 

[Rawb]

I don’t really respond to that way of speaking about God either, but it seems to me it is wrong to dismiss an emotional approach, just as it would be wrong to dismiss a rational approach, or an active approach. The emotions are part of our humanity just as the intellect is.

There are some people who I think have used it inappropriately, but we have seen that with the martial approach, or the ascetic approach, or the intellectual approach as well. The Devil likes to twist natural goods into perversions.

I think splitting this into an Eastern/Western thing is essentially wrong, though the East has retained the masculine more in recent years. But it certainly has the passive emotional approach as well, and the active and intellectual are well represented in the West.

Oh Anglicans, always the voice of the middle way…

You make good points. I think I should’ve specified in my first post that these are, of course, generalities that are being applied to both churches. Of course one could find femininity in Orthodoxy and masculinity in the West, but I think the dichotomy to an extent holds true.

BTW I’ve been enjoying your comments on the alcohol thread. Shall we meet at a pub and go to hell in a handbasket?

It can be a masculine handbasket.

 

[Graubo3]

Indeed. But this is not a zero-sum game, wherein no one can show emotion at all. It’s just a matter of what, on balance, characterizes one tradition or another.

I understand it is not a game and never said it was. I have sons that will be men one day with God’s grace bestowed upon them and myself.
Very eloquent quote by St. John of the Ladder, thanks for its inclusion.

Peace, Graubo

 

[Bluegoat]

Oh Anglicans, always the voice of the middle way…

You make good points. I think I should’ve specified in my first post that these are, of course, generalities that are being applied to both churches. Of course one could find femininity in Orthodoxy and masculinity in the West, but I think the dichotomy to an extent holds true.

BTW I’ve been enjoying your comments on the alcohol thread. Shall we meet at a pub and go to hell in a handbasket?

It can be a masculine handbasket.

Sounds like a great plan. A pint of Guinness would do the trick for me! I am trying though to picture a masculine man carrying a hand-basket, and am failing.

 

[puzzleannie]

I have noticed several comments lately in the media and on some obviously non-Catholic websites that seem to imply that Catholism is a religion of the weak and is not “Manly”. I.

and these people themselves are virile, manly, studly, whatever they call it because . . .

 

[dzheremi]

Bluegoat, as I tried to show Grabou3, it’s not about pushing out any or all emotion, but not making emotion the primary means through which we experience or encounter God. Indeed, many of the stories of the monks involve some sort of guarding against emotionality as a means of guarding against the demons that plague them in the desert. And I must disagree that this isn’t a Western/Eastern issue, because while the East certainly has its emotional aspects (cf. the quote from St. John of the Ladder), such things have not overtaken the practice of the faith in the Eastern churches as they have in the Western churches. I would say that it is not a matter of some sort of essential character of Western Christianity (as the Western monks used to live in a manner comparable to the East, too), but the de facto reality of Western Christianity for some time now (whether it dates back to the 12-13th century, as Frederica Mathewes-Green asserts, or is more recent as you write, is another question). It could be argued quite convincingly, I think, that the de facto reality has so much overtaken the Western Church that its masculine attributes or roots are…well, tough to find. Hence the Catholic article Rawb posted is about some sort of “new” Catholic manliness, whereas the Orthodox don’t need to invent such a thing…

I should say, however, that I find your point about modern Christian music to particularly true. There is little that can be said about the contrast between this Coptic hymn or this Byzantine one and Catholic music as it often shows up in various Catholic liturgies (and if anyone thinks that such comparisons are unfair, I invite you to watch Noursat channel’s presentation of Eastern Catholic liturgies and get down with yo’ bad self to disco beats and electric keyboards that often form the backbone of the liturgy’s musical accompaniment, to be topped off by faux-opera singing… )

 

[Anthony_V]

I strongly believe that the reason not only the Church, but society as a whole is becoming rather emasculate is because of the lack of prayer. If everyone prayed for about forty-five minutes to an hour each day, I would bet a pretty penny that many of the social maladies that plague our society would disappear. Including emasculation.
When you pray, you are allowing God to transform you. That transformation will make men into REAL men, and women into REAL women.
That transformation into what God wants you to be will dictate what God wills you to do. It doesn’t always mean that God wants you to go out and be a world-renowned missionary, or the next favorite theological scholar. Sometimes, he just wants you to be an ordinary person that does extraordinary things. In order to lead, you must learn to follow.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

It takes the strongest man to get down on his knees everyday and be humbled before God; to live a life of virtue and truth in this world of ours.

“The road is narrow.” – Matthew 7:14

 

[dzheremi]

I understand it is not a game and never said it was. I have sons that will be men one day with God’s grace bestowed upon them and myself.
Very eloquent quote by St. John of the Ladder, thanks for its inclusion.

Peace, Graubo

Oh, no. I meant a zero-sum game, as in, we don’t have to be emotionless robots or crumbling heaps of…feelings. In fact, no one in any church is that extreme.

 

[Graubo3]

… as I tried to show Grabou3, it’s not about pushing out any or all emotion, but not making emotion the primary means through which we experience

Thanks dzheremi, but I understand emotions and their proper time and place of expression as well as my sons do or are learning. I fell away for a length of time and the churches that I attended were so feel good. I also understand the realities of secular feminism that plague our boys and young men and the danger of it having crept into the Church.

Peace, Graubo

 

[cecilia97]

I strongly believe that the reason not only the Church, but society as a whole is becoming rather emasculate is because of the lack of prayer. If everyone prayed for about forty-five minutes to an hour each day, I would bet a pretty penny that many of the social maladies that plague our society would disappear. Including emasculation.
When you pray, you are allowing God to transform you. **That transformation will make men into REAL men, and women into REAL women. **
That transformation into what God wants you to be will dictate what God wills you to do. It doesn’t always mean that God wants you to go out and be a world-renowned missionary, or the next favorite theological scholar. Sometimes, he just wants you to be an ordinary person that does extraordinary things. In order to lead, you must learn to follow.

Amen. As a woman, I believe our society has got the image of femininity wrong, too. “Flowery”, whatever that is, and “soft emotionality” does not appeal to all women. I give you St. Teresa of Avila, St. Lucy, and St. Joan of Arc.

A woman doesn’t need to like flowers and perfumes to be a woman, she needs to LOVE GOD. And a man doesn’t need to be uber-butch to be a man, he needs to follow God’s will for his life. Jesus wept AND ALSO endured the most brutal torture for us. I don’t recal the Gospels ever telling us that he skipped around Galilee OR spent time in a deer blind.

 

[athenasius]

wach The Passion. Doesn’t seem terably feminine…

 

[josephback]

I have noticed several comments lately in the media and on some obviously non-Catholic websites that seem to imply that Catholism is a religion of the weak and is not “Manly”. I am required to believe that the people who make these comments feel that personal strength or more likely physical strenght is a key aspect of how they judge themselves and others. I guess my question is: Is Catholism “Manly”? Any thoughts on this topic are welcome as I am currently debating this with a non-Catholic friend of mine who has this belief.

Is Catholicism manly? I’ve never really thought about it. I would say to fulfill and live up to the demands that Jesus makes on you a person has to be a “man”(even if they’re a woman:thumbsup. If modern Catholicism is feminine in its approach its because the men have dropped out. We’ve dropped the ball. It’s up to us to change that. Time to rise to the challenge:knight1:

I also was interested with the articles posted by Rawb. Even as a non-Catholic boy growing up I rejected the overly emotional and taught myself not to cry. Overall men do not like the emotional and such. It’s a natural man thing. Challenges are good

 

[Sufjon]

I have noticed several comments lately in the media and on some obviously non-Catholic websites that seem to imply that Catholism is a religion of the weak and is not “Manly”. I am required to believe that the people who make these comments feel that personal strength or more likely physical strenght is a key aspect of how they judge themselves and others. I guess my question is: Is Catholism “Manly”? Any thoughts on this topic are welcome as I am currently debating this with a non-Catholic friend of mine who has this belief.

Probably the point at which one has moved past worrying about ones manliness or ones womanliness is the point at which one can start living a fuller, more spiritual life. Why miss out on all the wonderful moments in life worrying about something that’s pretty inconsequential?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Anthony_V]

I think this speaks for itself… Yes, the Church has problems. Yes, we need to fix them.

youtube.com/watch?v=iRcRYWnqsTY&feature=channel_video_title

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I have noticed several comments lately in the media and on some obviously non-Catholic websites that seem to imply that Catholism is a religion of the weak and is not “Manly”. I am required to believe that the people who make these comments feel that personal strength or more likely physical strenght is a key aspect of how they judge themselves and others. I guess my question is: Is Catholism “Manly”? Any thoughts on this topic are welcome as I am currently debating this with a non-Catholic friend of mine who has this belief.

Some context is necessary.

The first thing you have to realize is that there are still Christian churches that teach and believe that women are fit only to be wives and mothers. Christians who preach and practice this belief (a belief that used to be quite wide spread in the West) have always (or at least for many centuries) looked down on Catholicism for allowing/encouraging women religious (e.g. nuns) to become things like teachers, principals, nurses, doctors, academics, etc.

To these Christians a church that allows women to do such things is unseemingly feminine, and a real man wouldn’t let his women (wives and daughters generally speaking) participate in such activities.

The Church should be reassured when members of the Biblical Manhood & Womanhood movement or adherents to the Quiverfull idealogy criticize them for being to soft on women and/or liberal. It means that their doing something right.

Of course I understand that this sounds odd coming from me.

But even though I think that the Church (as a church) has discriminated against women (and other groups) in the past, it can’t be (credibly) denied that the Catholic Church attitude towards and treatment of women has improved remarkably over the last century. Moreover there have always been groups (such as the Egyptions) that treat women much worse.