Is Christ Really Equal To The Father?

[Sirach2]

If the Beloved Disciple was among them, he would have to have been one of the Twelve, yet O’Collins does not believe him to have been one of the Twelve

I disagree with O’Collins.
John 13:23 One of them [the twelve], the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him.

Again, we find reference in John 19:26-27 with Jesus entrusting His mother to the beloved disciple from the cross…
26. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom He loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son [John].
27. Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

John 13:23 One of them [the twelve], the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him.

Again, we find reference in John 19:26-27.
26. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom He loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son. 27. Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.

Thank you. Although I really like Gerald O’Collins and respect him greatly and enjoy his writing, I, too, disagree with him.

So we can definitely conclude that the Beloved Disciple was one of the Twelve. So that rules out Lazarus. Gerald O’Collins is very, very intelligent and learned. I am just confused by his saying (in the book, Jesus: A Portrait) that he believes the Beloved Disciple not to have been John bar Zebedee or one of the Twelve, but to have been an eyewitness to all the main events of Jesus’ life. Certainly the Last Supper was one of the main events.

In one of my NT classes some years ago, I made a case for the Beloved Disciple being John bar Zebedee. I will have to look up what I wrote. My instructor believed the Beloved Disciple was anyone who loves and follows Christ. It’s a sweet and rather sentimental thought, but I think he was an actual person. As you quoted, he sat next to Jesus at the Last Supper and took Mary into his home. Add to that what my professor proposed was not a literary device in the first century, and there is an even greater case for believing the Beloved Disciple was a real person. I don’t, myself, have any doubt about that. The Beloved Disciple also ran to the empty tomb with Peter when alerted by Mary Magdalene. Although the Beloved Disciple reached the tomb first, he did not enter first, but waited on Peter to enter.

Thank you again for the quotes. Do you have any thoughts on who the Beloved Disciple might be? I still lean toward John bar Zebedee, even though Jesus did call John and James the “Sons of Thunder” (for good reason).

Edit: I see, your post indicates you, too, believe it to be John bar Zebedee. Thank you for the information. I can’t see why there is so much dispute about this.

 

[Sirach2]

Yes, I believe John is the brother of James, both of whom are sons of Zebedee and Salome, who asked Jesus’ permission for her two sons to sit on His right and His left in glory.

Lily, I believe William Barclay’s writing on the Gospel of John is very profound. The account of the Last Supper was significant. You probably know that, in their culture, the host presided at the head of a U-shaped low table at which everyone leaned to the left, leaving the right hand free to eat. John would be leaning, therefore, on Jesus’ breast at Jesus’ right. It was believed that Judas was at Jesus’ left, which in that culture was always the place of honor.

So Jesus was making a final attempt to draw Judas away from his treachery, with His loving attention in giving him this honorable position at table. It was also considered a special sign of deep friendship for the host to give a morsel to his guest. (See Ruth 2:14) That place of honor afforded Jesus the means to quietly say to Judas, “Hurry about what you propose to do.” The others would not be aware, since it is customary at a Passover meal to share afterwards with the poor outside.

Just to share with our readers how Jesus offered all possible means of bringing Judas to repent of his actions.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Yes, I believe John is the brother of James, both of whom are sons of Zebedee and Salome, who asked Jesus’ permission for her two sons to sit on His right and His left in glory.

Lily, I believe William Barclay’s writing on the Gospel of John is very profound. The account of the Last Supper was significant. You probably know that, in their culture, the host presided at the head of a U-shaped low table at which everyone leaned to the left, leaving the right hand free to eat. John would be leaning, therefore, on Jesus’ breast at Jesus’ right. It was believed that Judas was at Jesus’ left, which in that culture was always the place of honor.

So Jesus was making a final attempt to draw Judas away from his treachery, with His loving attention in giving him this honorable position at table. It was also considered a special sign of deep friendship for the host to give a morsel to his guest. (See Ruth 2:14) That place of honor afforded Jesus the means to quietly say to Judas, “Hurry about what you propose to do.” The others would not be aware, since it is customary at a Passover meal to share afterwards with the poor outside.

Just to share with our readers how Jesus offered all possible means of bringing Judas to repent of his actions.

Thank you for your post, and thank you for sharing your insight.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

If the Beloved Disciple was among them, he would have to have been one of the Twelve, yet O’Collins does not believe him to have been one of the Twelve. And, strangely, there is no, and I mean no, “Zebedee” material in the Gospel of John, which would be strange if he was the author.

I don’t think so. In fact, I think it would be strange, given the Gospel’s call to humility, if John said anything (or allowed others to write about him particularly) in the Gospel of John.

There doesn’t seem to be any doubt among the Fathers of the Church about John the Apostle being the beloved disciple. And considering that there was an unbroken chain of oral tradition emanating from St John the Apostle, to St. Polycarp and St. Ignatius of Antioch etc., I can’t imagine why there should be any doubt now. Of course today’s scholars are very secular in their orientation, and treat the Bible and Tradition like a Medical Examiner exhuming a corpse. They have little use for a live unbroken chain of oral tradition, that was so strong and unquestionable, that it was never thought necessary to put it in writing.

What’s so ironic is that in today’s Theological atmosphere, where Protestants are reviving the Fathers of the Church and their doctrines, some Catholics are at pains to re-create or continue the Reformation’s theology of doubt.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I don’t think so. In fact, I think it would be strange, given the Gospel’s call to humility, if John said anything (or allowed others to write about him particularly) in the Gospel of John.

There doesn’t seem to be any doubt among the Fathers of the Church about John the Apostle being the beloved disciple. And considering that there was an unbroken chain of oral tradition emanating from St John the Apostle, to St. Polycarp and St. Ignatius of Antioch etc., I can’t imagine why there should be any doubt now. Of course today’s scholars are very secular in their orientation, and treat the Bible and Tradition like a Medical Examiner exhuming a corpse. They have little use for a live unbroken chain of oral tradition, that was so strong and unquestionable, that it was never thought necessary to put it in writing.

What’s so ironic is that in today’s Theological atmosphere, where Protestants are reviving the Fathers of the Church and their doctrines, some Catholics are at pains to re-create or continue the Reformation’s theology of doubt.

Thank you for your insight as well. When I wrote my paper stating that John bar Zebedee was the Beloved Disciple, I, too, pointed to the fact that perhaps he did not want to write about himself in his gospel out of humility. Fr. O’Collins seems to take the opposite view. He made me wonder because of his tremendous learning and intelligence and devotion to Christ, however, in this case, I think we in this thread are correct. I believe John bar Zebedee was the Beloved Disciple.

Again, thank you for your insight.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Thank you for your insight as well. When I wrote my paper stating that John bar Zebedee was the Beloved Disciple, I, too, pointed to the fact that perhaps he did not want to write about himself in his gospel out of humility. Fr. O’Collins seems to take the opposite view. He made me wonder because of his tremendous learning and intelligence and devotion to Christ, however, in this case, I think we in this thread are correct. I believe John bar Zebedee was the Beloved Disciple.

Again, thank you for your insight.

This would be an interesting thread of its own! Maybe you could start one with Fr. O’Collins reasons for taking the opposite view (on humility.) It might need to go in the Scripture forum though.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

This would be an interesting thread of its own! Maybe you could start one with Fr. O’Collins reasons for taking the opposite view (on humility.) It might need to go in the Scripture forum though.

Thank you, Ambrose. I will start one when I find Fr. O’Collins’ quotes. Luckily, I do own the book.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

The thread is here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=13185905#post13185905

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Ignore. I put this in the wrong place. Apologies.

 

[Richca]

These verses are just the ones I have found so far.

Possible Jesus=God Verses:
Romans 8:9-11- Constant interchangeability of Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ
Romans 9:5- One translation of a few equates Jesus with God, although a different translation that doesn’t infer such a thing is more likely.
Romans 10:9
Romans 11:36- This verse is applied to God, whereas earlier one of these qualities was applied to Jesus.
Romans 14:9
Romans 15:16 and 19- Gospel of God and Gospel of Christ is used interchangeably

Possible Jesus is NOT God Verses:
Romans 4:24- Believe in the one (God) who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. Clear distinction.
Romans 5:15- Jesus called a man and distinguished from God
Romans 5:19- Jesus is a man
Romans 8:11- “He who rose Christ Jesus from the dead.” Jesus did not raise himself; rather, God raised Jesus from the dead, and thus they must be different, because Jesus did not raise himself.
Romans 8:34- Jesus sits at God’s right side, and pleads our case for us. And he was raised (as if by someone else); he did not raise himself.
Romans 15:6- “so that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Probably the most important one here. According to this verse, God is the Father AND THE GOD of Jesus Christ. There is ONE God, and that same God is the God of Jesus and also the Father of Jesus. They are distinct, and Jesus is not God (as God is also his God).
Romans 15:15-16- Paul is given grace from God to minister about Jesus Christ to the Gentiles- seems to be some differentiation between God and Jesus.
Acts 2:22 International Version (NIV) 22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. A MAN accredited BY GOD to you by miracles, wonder and signs, which GOD DID AMONG YOU THROUGH HIM, as you yourselves know.
“The Father is greater than I” in John 14:28?"
Mark 13:32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

This article provides some further arguments, as does this.

Yes, Christ is one God with the Father and Holy Spirit. This is the dogma of the Trinity: one God in three persons. "Each [of the divine persons] is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature, one God” (CCC#253).

The CCC#256 quotes St Gregory Nazianzus concerning the Trinity:
“…I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendour. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me.”

 

[808Catholic]

What do you mean by Catholicity?

Perhaps I’m using the term incorrectly but my intent is to say all things Catholic.

 

[BarryI]

Perhaps I’m using the term incorrectly but my intent is to say all things Catholic.

Once again, Jesus proclaimed "The Father is greater than I ". Therefore, to believe Jesus is God, would be to call him a liar. Jesus is not a liar.

 

[Tomdstone]

Once again, Jesus proclaimed "The Father is greater than I ". Therefore, to believe Jesus is God, would be to call him a liar. Jesus is not a liar.

How do you interpret “I and the Father are One”?

 

[808Catholic]

Once again, Jesus proclaimed "The Father is greater than I ". Therefore, to believe Jesus is God, would be to call him a liar. Kesus is not a liar.

So your opinion is that Jesus is NOT God.

 

[BarryI]

How do you interpret “I and the Father are One”?

That is really very quite simple. Because Jesus is God’s only son and has been with Him since the beginning, He is just like Hus Father . He shares all His Fathers traits and thoughts. Much like any sports or competitive teams , or congregations for that matter. Although many, they are still one. It’s that simple. Jesus shares all of God’s wisdom and love and is just like Him. Though separate, they are one.

 

[808Catholic]

That is really very quite simple. Because Jesus is God’s only son and has been with Him since the beginning, He is just like Hus Father . He shares all His Fathers traits and thoughts. Much like any sports or competitive teams , or congregations for that matter. Although many, they are still one. It’s that simple. Jesus shares all of God’s wisdom and love and is just like Him. Though separate, they are one.

May I ask how you came about this understanding.

 

[ChosenOne7]

May I ask how you came about this understanding.

As a Catholic I’m sure you understand the trinity better than me, i do agree with the explanation Barryl gave… His understanding is consistent with the scriptures. But as firm believers of the trinity how do you understand
John 10:30 which says - “I and the Father are one.”
Compared to the prayer Jesus said to his Father at
John 17:11 - “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.”
Also in John 17:21,22 Jesus prayed regarding his followers: “That they may all be one,” and he added, “that they may be one even as we are one.”

What’s your understanding of all those verses?
If John 10:30 means Jesus and God is equal and the same person, does it mean then that these Christians will also become equally Christ with Jesus, and equally God with the Father and will also be part of the trinity?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

As a Catholic I’m sure you understand the trinity better than me, i do agree with the explanation Barryl gave… His understanding is consistent with the scriptures. But as firm believers of the trinity how do you understand
John 10:30 which says - “I and the Father are one.”
Compared to the prayer Jesus said to his Father at
John 17:11 - “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.”
Also in John 17:21,22 Jesus prayed regarding his followers: “That they may all be one,” and he added, “that they may be one even as we are one.”

What’s your understanding of all those verses?
If John 10:30 means Jesus and God is equal and the same person, does it mean then that these Christians will also become equally Christ with Jesus, and equally God with the Father and will also be part of the trinity?

It’s been answered on this site: catholic.com/quickquestions/what-did-jesus-mean-in-saying-that-the-father-was-greater-than-he

You’ve isolated one of Jesus’ sayings and taken it out of context. We can only understand things - anything - in context. John 14: 7-10 says:

“If you know me, then you will also know my Father. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus replied, “Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’ Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.”

The time was growing short for Jesus’ stay on earth. He was soon to be crucified. Jesus’ humanity was less than the Father’s divinity, however, Jesus also possessed full divinity so he and the Father have always been one God. Three persons, but only one God. Equals, so to speak, because one cannot be “one” with some substance of oneself and not be equal to that substance. Your right arm is not the inferior, in substance, of your left arm. However, the arm of a chimp could be said to be inferior to a human arm. (Not really a good analogy, but it gets the point across.)

No human will ever be the equal of God, or of Christ, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Humans are not the same substance as God. God is divine, and humans are not divine. Christ was praying to his Father than all humans would be one in his Mystical Body, the Church, of which he is the head and High Priest. (Human priests act in alter Christus only.) Humans will never be God’s equal. They will never be part of the Holy Trinity. However, they can experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I do believe, though, that Christ was talking about his Church when he prayed that all might become one. The living Christ is encountered today in the Holy Eucharist, in his Church.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

As a Catholic I’m sure you understand the trinity better than me, i do agree with the explanation Barryl gave… His understanding is consistent with the scriptures. But as firm believers of the trinity how do you understand
John 10:30 which says - “I and the Father are one.”
Compared to the prayer Jesus said to his Father at
John 17:11 - “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.”
Also in John 17:21,22 Jesus prayed regarding his followers: “That they may all be one,” and he added, “that they may be one even as we are one.”

What’s your understanding of all those verses?
If John 10:30 means Jesus and God is equal and the same person, does it mean then that these Christians will also become equally Christ with Jesus, and equally God with the Father and will also be part of the trinity?

Philippians 2:5-11 explains how Jesus was the equal of the Father in divinity and how the Father was greater regarding Jesus’ humanity. As a human, Jesus was dedicated to doing the will of the Father at all times:

“Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Jesus spoke of these things when the time was drawing near for his crucifixion: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” (John 17:1-5).

By taking on human flesh, Jesus was “made lower than the angels” (Hebrews 2:9), but he did not lose his divinity. He did not stop being God, and he existed, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit, from all eternity. There was never a time when Jesus was not.