Is Christ Really Equal To The Father?

[JerryZ]

I don’t know.

That’s because despite years of reading and study, I really don’t understand the Trinity.

And you are NOT alone, if anyone this side of Heaven says they fully understand the Trinity most likely are self deceived or lying.
That is why it is called a mystery.
Don’t be afraid of it, embrace it, what little understanding we can grasp, is enough if it allows us to assent that: GOD is 1. The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are 3 separate persons but One true GOD.

…

 

[Tomdstone]

Jesus Christ our Savior was both fully human, and fully divine, at the same time. He was, is, and always will be, God.

Then why did He say:
“The Father is greater than I” in John 14:28?"
Mark 13:32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

 

[808Catholic]

I don’t know.

That’s because despite years of reading and study, I really don’t understand the Trinity.

A calculator does not know why it calculates; it does so because it’s been programmed to calculate when the user punches in numbers. We’re like that calculator. We don’t understand everything God puts into us; we’re asked to accept it on faith. But, unlike the calculator, we have a choice and, again unlike the calculator, we can think beyond simple programming so we can reason mysteries even though we can’t hope to achieve full understanding. Trust in God.

 

[808Catholic]

Because the word was God, but when the word became human it lost all power and privileges and turned into a fully human being. So Jesus was as human below God because he voluntary lost all divine privileges.

As you found yourself, there are parts in the bible that say Jesus is equal to God and parts that says he was below. But instead of seeing a contradiction, it is both true. Jesus the Lord who turned into a slave=human, he was as slave below God but as Lord he is equal.

@Andre
I respectfully disagree with you. Jesus is the Word of God; He is begotten by the Father and has the same divine nature as the Father and Spirit though He is not the Father or the Spirit. Remember how God spoke the world into creation? “Let there be light…”? There is power in God’s Word that creates and the same power that the Father has is in Jesus.

Jesus never stopped being God as John tells us in the opening verse of his version of the Gospel. “In the beginning was the Word…and the Word was God.” Jesus has always been with the Father. When Jesus Incarnated (meaning God become Man), He became the perfect Man while being God at the same time. 2 natures in one Person.

While the Trinity remains a mystery, we can think in terms of God the Father being the Creator, Jesus being God’s Son is the Savior, and the Holy Spirit as the Love that proceeds from the Father and the Son. The 3 persons were revealed in different roles but are not defined by the roles or described as individuals. The Father creates everything and keeps everything in order and in existence. Christ Jesus brings salvation to mankind. The Holy Spirit dwells in us and the world to ensure God’s plan continues in everyone and everything to this day and into the future (until the end of time.)

Hope this helps.

 

[meltzerboy]

Seems very similar to what another Rabbi once said.

And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40)

-Tim-

That is because Jesus was raised in the Hillel school of Judaism. Note, however, that Jesus puts Hillel’s dictum in the affirmative. That is, instead of saying “What is hateful to thyself, do not do to thy fellow man,” Jesus states “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” This shows that Jesus truly understood the Torah, which places even more emphasis on positive deeds toward others than refraining from negative deeds.

 

[TimothyH]

That is because Jesus was raised in the Hillel school of Judaism. Note, however, that Jesus puts Hillel’s dictum in the affirmative. That is, instead of saying “What is hateful to thyself, do not do to thy fellow man,” Jesus states “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” This shows that Jesus truly understood the Torah, which places even more emphasis on positive deeds toward others than refraining from negative deeds.

Too many of my brethren need to hear your words. I sometimes need to hear these words.

You have have added much depth to these discussions and have earned my respect. The word mensch comes to mind.

-Tim-

 

[meltzerboy]

Too many of my brethren need to hear your words. I sometimes need to hear these words.

You have have added much depth to these discussions and have earned my respect. The word mensch comes to mind.

-Tim-

I appreciate your kind words, Tim.

 

[Tomdstone]

The parables can be difficult to understand. Christ constructed them that way.

What was the purpose in making them difficult to understand? Why wouldn’t it be better to have clearcut and easy to understand teachings?

 

[meltzerboy]

What was the purpose in making them difficult to understand? Why wouldn’t it be better to have clearcut and easy to understand teachings?

I’m not sure. But why is good literature, music, art, philosophy, science difficult to understand and open to diverse interpretations? Why is work hard instead of easy, and why is maintaining a good marriage and a good friendship (hard) work for many people? Why is learning to play a musical instrument, singing, and dancing, or mastering a sport difficult, requiring years of practice? Why are medicine and the law so complicated? It seems to me most of the good things in life are not easy.

 

[Tomdstone]

I’m not sure. But why is good literature, music, art, philosophy, science difficult to understand and open to diverse interpretations? Why is work hard instead of easy, and why is maintaining a good marriage (hard) work for some? Why is learning to play a musical instrument, singing, and dancing, or mastering a sport difficult, requiring years of practice? Why are medicine and the law so complicated? It seems to me most of the good things in life are not easy.

But the question here is the eternal salvation of the individual. Why not give clearcut and easy to understand teachings to help the poor soul who is trying desperately to avoid the eternal damnation of hell instead of making things so complicated for her?

 

[meltzerboy]

But the question here is the eternal salvation of the individual. Why not give clearcut and easy to understand teachings to help the poor soul who is trying desperately to avoid the eternal damnation of hell instead of making things so complicated for her?

That may depend on the specific religion. In Judaism, eternal damnation is not so much a concern because we do not really believe in it. While there are certainly laws to be practiced, it is more designed by G-d for the individual’s betterment and happiness in their earthly life than with an eye to their future state in the afterlife. Further, these Torah commandments, if we are to believe Moses himself, are not so difficult to follow; and, according to Hillel and Jesus (who were mentioned earlier), hinge ultimately on two basic commandments: loving G-d and helping one’s fellow man. And, finally, G-d rewards our attempts and effort as much as our success. For the Catholic response to your question, I defer to my fellow CAFers.

 

[Tomdstone]

That may depend on the specific religion. In Judaism, eternal damnation is not so much a concern because we do not really believe in it. While there are certainly laws to be practiced, it is more designed by G-d for the individual’s betterment and happiness in their earthly life than with an eye to their future state in the afterlife. Further, these Torah commandments, if we are to believe Moses himself, are not so difficult to follow; and, according to Hillel and Jesus (who were mentioned earlier), hinge ultimately on two basic commandments: loving G-d and helping one’s fellow man. And, finally, G-d rewards our attempts and effort as much as our success. For the Catholic response to your question, I defer to my fellow CAFers.

I was thinking of the Roman Catholic situation. AFAIK, a Jew cannot believe in Jesus as the Messiah. At least that is what a rabbi (Reformed) said. It was at a Jewish service where people in the Congregation were relating some issues that had come up with their relatives who were Catholics. Anyway, Jesus mentions hell, or eternal fire in Matthew 25:41.

 

[ccmcmg]

Then why did He say:
“The Father is greater than I” in John 14:28?"
Mark 13:32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

Perhaps the Catechism and its references can help you out. Jesus Christ was fully man, and fully God.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm#IV

or

catholic.com/tracts/the-divinity-of-christ

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/incaa3.htm

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Here is an answer, from this site, to your question:

catholic.com/quickquestions/what-did-jesus-mean-in-saying-that-the-father-was-greater-than-he

Edit: I’m sorry, you didn’t ask a question, you were providing an answer. I’m sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree with your answer. Even though Jesus was, and still retains, full humanity, he is also fully divine. He was fully divine during his Incarnation here on earth. That is the meaning of “hypostatic union,” full humanity joined to full divinity.

I only reply since under “Religion” you say you are Roman Catholic AND a associate professor of Theology.

What I said:

"Jesus Christ the person is a hypostatic union of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, and a fully human nature–> Body and Soul.

Therefore in His Divinity, Jesus Christ is Equal to the Father, but in His humanity, He is the Son of the Father, and not his equal.

That is why Jesus, during his mission on earth, would say things like “The Father is Greater than I.”

Please explain why you disagree. I have only restated ancient Catholic teaching. I don’t see how you (or any good Catholic) could find fault with that statement.

Your link was irrelevant.

When I said “during his mission on earth” I was NOT suggesting that Jesus was not a Hypostatic Union while on earth. There is no reason for you to infer that from my comment.

 

[ChosenOne7]

Hey this is a interesting topic one that can go on forever… It’s also interesting to note that many people I speak to seem to believe in the trinity but yet they confess they do not understand it, as seen by some of the comments made on this thread too, this puts the question in my mind that how does one believe in something one can’t explain or understand? that’s called having blind faith… I know many who asked their church leaders to explain the trinity who replied by its a mystery… But if the trinity is a basis for our salvation then there’s no way it can be a mystery. But then again on the other hand many do confess to totally understand the trinity… So I have a question I want them to help me understand…
John 3:16 says - “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
Please explain what the term “only begotten Son” means?

Anything that is “begotten”, is something that at one time did not exist and then was brought into existence. Am I right when I say that? If you agree to that then Jesus can’t be considered equal to God… There’s also no scripture in the Bible that shows Jesus existed from eternity, so where does that belief come from?

 

[porthos11]

These verses are just the ones I have found so far.

Possible Jesus=God Verses:
Romans 8:9-11- Constant interchangeability of Spirit of God and Spirit of Christ
Romans 9:5- One translation of a few equates Jesus with God, although a different translation that doesn’t infer such a thing is more likely.
Romans 10:9
Romans 11:36- This verse is applied to God, whereas earlier one of these qualities was applied to Jesus.
Romans 14:9
Romans 15:16 and 19- Gospel of God and Gospel of Christ is used interchangeably

Correct, because Jesus is God.

Possible Jesus is NOT God Verses:
Romans 4:24- Believe in the one (God) who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. Clear distinction.
Romans 5:15- Jesus called a man and distinguished from God
Romans 5:19- Jesus is a man
Romans 8:11- “He who rose Christ Jesus from the dead.” Jesus did not raise himself; rather, God raised Jesus from the dead, and thus they must be different, because Jesus did not raise himself.
Romans 8:34- Jesus sits at God’s right side, and pleads our case for us. And he was raised (as if by someone else); he did not raise himself.
Romans 15:6- “so that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Probably the most important one here. According to this verse, God is the Father AND THE GOD of Jesus Christ. There is ONE God, and that same God is the God of Jesus and also the Father of Jesus. They are distinct, and Jesus is not God (as God is also his God).

And here’s where we’re missing an important point in the Trinity:

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God
But they are not three Gods but one God.

BUT:
The Father is not the Son
The Son is not the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is not the Father

because they are distinct Persons. This is how Jesus can pray to the Father and that he can be identified distinctly from the Father.

Romans 15:15-16- Paul is given grace from God to minister about Jesus Christ to the Gentiles- seems to be some differentiation between God and Jesus.
Acts 2:22 International Version (NIV) 22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. A MAN accredited BY GOD to you by miracles, wonder and signs, which GOD DID AMONG YOU THROUGH HIM, as you yourselves know.
“The Father is greater than I” in John 14:28?"
Mark 13:32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

This article provides some further arguments, as does this.

Because Jesus is also Man, as as Man, he can learn and grow through his experimental knowledge. Since his human soul possessed the Beatific Vision, he knows everything through by virtue of his being a divine Person. As Man, he also knows everything through the infused knowledge of his soul, united as it was with a divine Person. And as Man, he has experimental knowledge which is finite and grows and develops like we do. This is where Jesus does not know of the end times because this has not been revealed to his experimental knowledge. But his Beatific and infused knowledges would definitely have that information.

So two key points need to be kept in mind:

Jesus is God, but is not the Father. Therefore there is a distinction.
Jesus is also Man, and as Man, he can subject himself to human limitation. This is why he can be suffer, die and claim ignorance and inferiority in certain matters.

 

[808Catholic]

Hey this is a interesting topic one that can go on forever… It’s also interesting to note that many people I speak to seem to believe in the trinity but yet they confess they do not understand it, as seen by some of the comments made on this thread too, this puts the question in my mind that how does one believe in something one can’t explain or understand? that’s called having blind faith… I know many who asked their church leaders to explain the trinity who replied by its a mystery… But if the trinity is a basis for our salvation then there’s no way it can be a mystery. But then again on the other hand many do confess to totally understand the trinity… So I have a question I want them to help me understand…
John 3:16 says - “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
Please explain what the term “only begotten Son” means?

Anything that is “begotten”, is something that at one time did not exist and then was brought into existence. Am I right when I say that? If you agree to that then Jesus can’t be considered equal to God… There’s also no scripture in the Bible that shows Jesus existed from eternity, so where does that belief come from?

I believe in love but can’t explain love.
I believe in justice but can’t explain justice.
If someone should tell me they can explain God, I believe that person to be in error, misunderstanding, or simply a liar.

Your definition of begotten is confused with created. Jesus is the Word and the Word was with God the Father from the beginning. Jesus is God.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Hey this is a interesting topic one that can go on forever… It’s also interesting to note that many people I speak to seem to believe in the trinity but yet they confess they do not understand it, as seen by some of the comments made on this thread too, this puts the question in my mind that how does one believe in something one can’t explain or understand? that’s called having blind faith… I know many who asked their church leaders to explain the trinity who replied by its a mystery… But if the trinity is a basis for our salvation then there’s no way it can be a mystery. But then again on the other hand many do confess to totally understand the trinity… So I have a question I want them to help me understand…
John 3:16 says - “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
Please explain what the term “only begotten Son” means?

Anything that is “begotten”, is something that at one time did not exist and then was brought into existence. Am I right when I say that? If you agree to that then Jesus can’t be considered equal to God… There’s also no scripture in the Bible that shows Jesus existed from eternity, so where does that belief come from?

There are plenty of things that you would find as part of your faith, things that you and Catholics and others may even agree on, that are still mysterious and not fully understood. But that does not mean we cannot know anything about them or that they contradict reason. Saying that the Trinity is a mystery of mysterious does not mean it is against reason or cannot be understood. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the ‘mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God’” (234). In this sense, any aspect of God’s nature is a mystery, since it deals with His inner life and being.

The words person and nature describe two different things. Person denotes who someone is, while nature denotes what one is. So if we ask “Who is God?”, the answer is “God is Three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit”. If we ask “What is God?” the answer is “God is One - a Single Divine Nature”. If we put these two truths together we find that God is Three Divine Persons who share one Divine Nature.

Here’s an example to help you understand: Let’s say there are three men - John, James and Joe. Each one thinks, loves and decides for himself, yet they are joined in such a way that they all share the same soul. John can think with James’ intellect, because it is also his own; James can love with Joe’s will, because it is his will as well.

The Persons of the Trinity are not exactly like human persons. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not three separate “consciousnesses” in God, each with His own intellect and will. Rather they are three distinct subjects of consciousness who share one Intellect and one Will. The distinction between the Three Persons is in their relation toward one another: the Father is the “Begettor”, the Son is the “Begotten One”, and the Holy Spirit is the “Spiration”. This is how the Three are differentiated from one another.

home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/trinity.html

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I only reply since under “Religion” you say you are Roman Catholic AND a associate professor of Theology.

What I said:

Please explain why you disagree. I have only restated ancient Catholic teaching. I don’t see how you (or any good Catholic) could find fault with that statement.

Your link was irrelevant.

When I said “during his mission on earth” I was NOT suggesting that Jesus was not a Hypostatic Union while on earth. There is no reason for you to infer that from my comment.

Thank you, I see now. I don’t really agree with what the link says myself. It has to do with whether the Father is greater than the Son, but the person who answered didn’t really explain why Jesus made that statement. I don’t think the link was irrelevant, but it was certainly inconclusive.

The problem was my confusion of your post with another post, there is nothing wrong with your post. Apologies to you.

 

[ChosenOne7]

If someone should tell me they can explain God, I believe that person to be in error, misunderstanding, or simply a liar.

Your definition of begotten is confused with created. Jesus is the Word and the Word was with God the Father from the beginning. Jesus is God.

The Bible explains God would you say the Bible is in error or simply lying? Probably not… Maybe you just misunderstanding the scriptures or maybe I am… But that’s why we discussing this so to understand why our beliefs differ…

You saying Jesus wasn’t created… But if I show you a verse in the Bible that shows he was would you believe? Or would you ignore that verse because you know it doesn’t agree with your beliefs…
John 17:3 says - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
Another Bible says - “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.”
Getting to know God isn’t a mystery… If we can get to know God and Jesus it would mean everlasting life for us