Is Christ Really Equal To The Father?

[JMM1957]

I’ve read the book of Revelation completely through many times, I can’t give you an exact number. And yes, there are different speakers, that’s why I asked the question in the first place. Also, please don’t forget to comment on my post #175 a little while back.

 

[ChosenOne7]

I’ve read the book of Revelation completely through many times, I can’t give you an exact number. And yes, there are different speakers, that’s why I asked the question in the first place. Also, please don’t forget to comment on my post #175 a little while back.

Awesome stuff… Then you will agree with me that when Revelation speaks of the one sitting on the throne it’s speaking about God right? It will be good just to read over chapters 4 and 5 of Revelations just to see that Jesus is before the one sitting on the throne and that the one sitting is always God. Once we got that we can easily answer some of the verses you gave

 

[JMM1957]

Understood, proceed.

 

[ChosenOne7]

Understood, proceed.

Okay so now that we agree that the one seated on the throne is God and not Jesus, one of the scriptures you mentioned is Revelation 21:6, but if you read verse 5 it says that “He who was seated on the throne said” and then continues into verse 6 which says “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.”
Based on that we can conclude that the verses is speaking about God being the alpha and the omega… In short that is how I understand it

 

[JMM1957]

The name of the book, Revelation, is an appropriate name in many ways. Not only does it deal with the end times and how salvation history finally plays out, but it also reveals to us the fullness of who Jesus is. We believe that in Rev.1:8 it refers to God (the Father), and in Rev. 22:12-13 it is Christ applying the words to himself, Alpha and Omega. Jesus is actually doing the speaking from verses 12-16. He also is speaking in Rev. 22:7 when He says “behold I am coming soon”. And again in Rev.22:20 Jesus says “yes, I am coming soon”.

 

[Tomdstone]

ChoseOne7,

Where, I ask, do you get this kind of information that you are putting out here? Either you are deliberately trying to insult Catholics just for the fun of it, or you are truly ignorant of the facts. I will assume that it is the latter. Is this the type of education they give you at the kingdom hall? Its almost ludicrous that I, or anyone needs to set you straight on the complete error of your thinking when it comes to preaching the Gospel. Throughout all of Christianity from the time of the Apostles till now, the Catholic Church has done more to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ than anyone, period. Even non-Catholic Christians would agree with this if they are being honest. We don’t have to go door to door as you do, nothing stops us from doing it though. That just happens to be the way your organization chooses to do it. The Catholic Church spreads the Gospel in many, many other ways than going door to door, and they have done it since the earliest centuries of the Church. We have done it through hospitals, schools, universities, missions, orphanages, monasteries, etc. Preaching the Gospel is at the heart of what we do, but we also have to take care of peoples needs that go beyond just the Gospel, this is something Jesus always emphasized (Matt. 25-35).

Friend, do not be misled that your organization is doing more preaching of the Gospel in this world than anyone else. If you need more information about what the Catholic Church has done and is doing in the world to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you can simply “google” it. I don’t have the time to go into detail concerning this subject on the forum. I hope we can get back to the original topic that was being discussed.

Perhaps he meant that JWs go door to door, whereas Catholics do not. Just this last month, there were two times when JWs came to my door preaching with their Bible and other materials, but I did not see any Roman Catholics come in the last 100 months.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

The name of the book, Revelation, is an appropriate name in many ways. Not only does it deal with the end times and how salvation history finally plays out, but it also reveals to us the fullness of who Jesus is. We believe that in Rev.1:8 it refers to God (the Father), and in Rev. 22:12-13 it is Christ applying the words to himself, Alpha and Omega. Jesus is actually doing the speaking from verses 12-16. He also is speaking in Rev. 22:7 when He says “behold I am coming soon”. And again in Rev.22:20 Jesus says “yes, I am coming soon”.

And what exactly constitutes “soon” to God, who lives in timelessness? “Three days” was the first century Jewish way of expressing “a short while.” What did “soon” mean in the first century?

 

[JMM1957]

Perhaps he meant that JWs go door to door, whereas Catholics do not. Just this last month, there were two times when JWs came to my door preaching with their Bible and other materials, but I did not see any Roman Catholics come in the last 100 months.

Yes I know what he meant. ChosenOne7 knows full well that Catholics don’t go door to door, and that is pretty much why he said what he did. The JW’s and their predecessors, The International Bible Students didn’t come on the scene until the 1870’s if I am correct, so they have only been doing what they are doing for less than 150 years. The Catholic Church has been around by that name since the early second century. We have been preaching the Gospel for nearly 2000 years. I am quite confident that in the early centuries when there wasn’t any way to get around except walk, that preaching was done in a way similar to what the JW’s do today, by going home to home, city to city, country to country, but doing it all by walking, or maybe by camels or horseback, or boats.

That was one of the things that showed me they following Jesus example. Jw’ 's are preaching in over 230 lands around the world even going to the most remotest parts of the earth to reach people, We reach people of any language too, people where books and things don’t even come out in their language. I wish other religions would put that much effort in searching for people

You need to take the blinders off friend, because the Catholic Church has been doing just what you said above, and more, for 2000 years. Granted, things went much slower back when the only way you could get around is walk, but as the world modernized, the Church exploded throughout the world. There are over a billion Catholics currently alive in the world, not to mention all the Catholics who have died since the first century. I would say we have been very successful at preaching the Gospel, regardless of whether or not you agree with our viewpoints on things.

And what exactly constitutes “soon” to God, who lives in timelessness? “Three days” was the first century Jewish way of expressing “a short while.” What did “soon” mean in the first century?

It obviously meant something different than today. I really don’t think you can define it, because it seems to have had meanings opposite of each other in some cases. When Jesus said “I am coming soon” He said it that way so that we would always be prepared for His final coming. Matthew 24:42-44 goes right along with this idea I believe, and there are other parables with a similar message.

 

[JerryZ]

JMM1957:

It obviously meant something different than today. I really don’t think you can define it, because it seems to have had meanings opposite of each other in some cases. When Jesus said “I am coming soon” He said it that way so that we would always be prepared for His final coming. Matthew 24:42-44 goes right along with this idea I believe, and there are other parables with a similar message.

Not to mention that HE comes to us physically everyday at mass. flesh, blood, soul and divinity and HE feeds us with the true manna from Heaven, giving us grace.
Compared to what the Israeli people did when they offered daily sacrifice today were mass is said almost continually practically in every country of the Earth.
Totally fulfilling the Old Testament prophecy, that there would be a time when perpetual sacrifice would be offered to GOD from one end to the other of the Earth.
And the law would be written in the hearts of GOD’s people (Infused grace).

…

 

[JMM1957]

Not to mention that HE comes to us physically everyday at mass. flesh, blood, soul and divinity and HE feeds us with the true manna from Heaven, giving us grace.
Compared to what the Israeli people did when they offered daily sacrifice today were mass is said almost continually practically in every country of the Earth.
Totally fulfilling the Old Testament prophecy, that there would be a time when perpetual sacrifice would be offered to GOD from one end to the other of the Earth.
And the law would be written in the hearts of GOD’s people (Infused grace).

…

ChosenOne7,

Don’t mean to get way ahead of you, but I wanted to post things as I think about them so I wouldn’t forget.

Worship due to God alone:

Ex. 34:14
Luke 4:8
Rev. 22:9

Worship of Jesus:

Matt. 2:11
Matt.14:33
Matt.28:9
Matt. 28:16-17
John 20:28

These are but a small sampling of verses backing up both sides that I quickly put together, there are many more but this should keep you occupied for a little bit.

In all the cases where Jesus is being offered worship, He never scolds anyone not to do it. I will also say, because you will probably bring it up, that in some cases the word used is “worship” and sometimes it says “homage”. Both words are interchangeable and mean the same thing, look it up if you don’t believe me.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

JMM1957:

It obviously meant something different than today. I really don’t think you can define it, because it seems to have had meanings opposite of each other in some cases. When Jesus said “I am coming soon” He said it that way so that we would always be prepared for His final coming. Matthew 24:42-44 goes right along with this idea I believe, and there are other parables with a similar message.

Thank you. I agree with you.

 

[Sirach2]

O Chosen One,
The Lord foretells to you, that one day you will be a Catholic. I know it seems incredible, but you will see the fulfillment of this prophecy, I know not when, but on that day, you will rejoice with exceeding great love and thanksgiving. I will continue to pray for you with much love as I anticipate the great blessing this will be for you.

 

[JMM1957]

O Chosen One,
The Lord foretells to you, that one day you will be a Catholic. I know it seems incredible, but you will see the fulfillment of this prophecy, I know not when, but on that day, you will rejoice with exceeding great love and thanksgiving. I will continue to pray for you with much love as I anticipate the great blessing this will be for you.

I pray also that ChosenOne7 will come to a knowledge of the Truth and join us in the Catholic Church one day. I feel that because ChosenOne7 is here spending time on a Catholic forum tells me there is an interest in understanding our Church, its history, and our beliefs more deeply. I personally will be here for you, to help with any questions you have about our Church, the Church established by Jesus the Christ, in Matthew 16:13-19.

Pray, pray, pray for understanding with an open heart and Jesus will come to you and reveal Himself to you, He promised it and He will do it.

 

[Sirach2]

I pray also that ChosenOne7 will come to a knowledge of the Truth and join us in the Catholic Church one day. I feel that because ChosenOne7 is here spending time on a Catholic forum tells me there is an interest in understanding our Church, its history, and our beliefs more deeply.** I personally will be here for you, to help with any questions you have about our Church**, the Church established by Jesus the Christ, in Matthew 16:13-19.

Pray, pray, pray for understanding with an open heart and Jesus will come to you and reveal Himself to you, He promised it and He will do it.

Me, too, JMM