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tonyrey
Guest
I guessed that, Sarah, but I want to join in. :bighanky:
Now that doesn’t surprise me in the slightest. Birds of a feather flock together - even charming birds…
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inocente
Guest
You don’t think it’s obsessive of you to trawl through my posts and quote one that’s 18 months old?
Please don’t stalk me, it’s icky.
Same answer as 18 months ago, the Spirit.
I’ve made a case direct from scripture that Kolbe didn’t have the greatest love of all, and so can’t be used as evidence to batter non-Christians, and that Christian love precludes the thought that any group is better, or even capable of being better, than everyone else.
If you want to argue that then fine, but please don’t stalk me, it’s icky.
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PRmerger
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PRmerger
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I just happen to have a phenomenal memory, inocente.
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PRmerger
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Because I’m looking for evidence for this Phantom Atheistic Kolbe. It’s exactly the OPPOSITE of being “provisional acceptance”, so your question is a bit confusing.
When someone provides some evidence for him, then I’ll consider it. (And use the same criteria that’s proffered by atheists: must be eyewitnesses. Must provide first hand writings of the atheist’s beliefs. etc etc etc)
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inocente
Guest
Wow, you remember every post number from 18 months ago!I just happen to have a phenomenal memory, inocente.
So that’s the reason you’ve no room to keep any scripture in your head.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
You make a good point. If you were never oppressed with the “fire and brimstone” and the law of sin and death, you do not need be freed from it.I’m sure that’s true for some of those that had a faith, but in my case, and in the case of the majority of people I know, there’s no sense of being delivered from anything, and there never was any faith or belief in a Deity of any kind to begin with.
Sarah x
However I believe religions are designed to be antidotes not only to the religions themselves, but to the society at large. I think it is very difficult for anyone – atheists included – to grow up in civilized society and not be turned into a confused, anxiety-ridden mess. But I never thought religion would help me until the second half of it delivered me from the first half, like you said.
Alan
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samiam1611
Guest
But we (atheists on CAF) entertain the idea that God exists in order to partake in discussions all the time even though we don’t see [compelling] evidence for His existence so even though you have not been given [compelling] evidence that PAK exists I would think you could answer the question.
I’ve never believed in God, not even as a child, so it does not come naturally or easily to me, and sometimes I don’t even know what I’m entertaining the possibility of. [Creator God is not that hard but once Catholics start adding in all these anthromorphic characteristics yet deny He is anthromorphic I am lost.] I’ve written over 700 posts by doing this though so surely you can write 1, explaining what agape is.
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tonyrey
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I like the definition that it is “an intentional response to promote well-being when responding to that which has generated ill-being” (Thomas Jay Oord) but I think it is unconditional, i.e. an unselfish response to promote well-being regardless of what others have done.
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atheistgirl
Guest
Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t quite get your sense of humor
I think of you as a very sincere, but quite a serious kinda person, some one that would find some one like me, a bit, well, irritating I suppose, at times, because I can be a little bit flippant :hug1:
I will learn to recognize and love your dry sense of humor
That’s an interesting observation and one I never really wondered about until stumbling across this forum. Religious people have their faith based meetings, and no doubt apart from the spiritual side, derive a lot of pleasure, comfort, strength, and stuff like that from the simple act of gathering with like minded people for a period of time.
Atheists on the whole don’t do this. Sure, there’s atheist boards, and the odd convention here and there, but I’ve never been to anything like that and would never go to something like that because from what I can gather, their ‘‘atheism’’ is the central issue, and I don’t really get that.
My atheism is simply a position on a single question. It is not a ruling or deciding factor in any other area of my life, from home, to business, to community, to politics.
I can’t think of anything worse that getting together with 2000 people and grumbling about the religious people of this world (maybe that’s not what they do but it’s what I think they do)!
I simply don’t care for it.
So I guess my experience of atheists and atheism is we don’t flock together. We may be together for other reasons - charitable, work related, business ventures, family, community issues - but what brings us together, if our paths do cross, is those issues, not atheism.
There are many great charities that are run by secular and humanist organizations, but again, they work with people of faith also, so the binding force is the work they do, not their atheism, even though they are humanist in nature.
In fact, thinking about it, I couldn’t ever belong to a ‘flock’ or group whose sole existance was motivated by their position on a single question. What in the world would be the point? How would their meetings be structured?
Opening remarks by the CEO
‘‘Good morning Ladies and Gentlemen, as of now, we still do not have sufficient verifiable evidence to believe that there is, in fact, a Deity’’.
Silence from the room.
Closing remarks by the CEO
‘‘So Ladies and Gentlemen, that concludes today’s business. Coffee is served out back and Sarah has brough a lovely home made white chocolate hazelnut torte for us to enjoy. See you all next month’’
No thanks.
I’ve got work to do
Sarah x
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
For the most part I agree with you. Though I decided to see what such a group would be like and decided to go to a meeting out of curiosity. I ruled out some groups because I read their meeting agenda on the web. I’ve just got no interest in griping. But I found one group with a meeting that interested me. And by meeting, I mean a bowling get together. I’ve also interacted with the members in a private facebook group.
Surprisingly there were very little talk of religion. When it does come up it’s because it is related to some other life issue (ex: a lady was upset that her 5th grade daughter’s best friend of six years was being removed from the school system after the other girls mother found out they were non-believers). There are also others that ask for advice on how to handle something at work that might expose their non-belief and make them subject to other problems. There’s been a few members that are interested in finding a mate and have found that by not having a religion potentials find them unacceptable.
I think it would be fair to say they are looking for an environment where they can socialize without experiencing penalties for not being religious. I’ve mentioned this before, but here in the"bible belt" simply not being religious is taken as a provocation. Much of the talk seems to be pretty “normal” ; last episode of some TV show, a recent sports game, something that happened in the news…
I think in what I mentioned above the commonality would be “socializing.” There’s actually a few people in the group that still have some association with religion but joined the group because of some other divisive issue with their family/community.
Oh man, I was going to start a club for people that answered “no” to the question of “do you play soccer?” I guess that means I couldn’t interest you in joining. It was going to be great! we were going to get together and have great conversation about not playing soccer! Not playing soccer is one of the best sports out there!
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atheistgirl
Guest
I really like that definition too.
It would cover all those brave men and women from secularist and humanitarian organizations like MSF who gave their lives trying to provide aid and comfort to others, regardless of religion, race or politics.
They don’t distinguish between who’s right or wrong, take sides, or make judgements, they simply unconditionally provide where the need is, regardless of anything else, and in the full and certain knowledge they may sacrifice their lives in doing so.
Women like Hélène de Beir who was murdered by the Taliban for doing nothing more than living out this Agape for all her fellow humans in setting up a clinic everyone would benefit from.
Sarah x
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atheistgirl
Guest
Hey you’re kidding me!!!
I was captain of our Not Playing Soccer team in school!
When I left school and moved, I couldn’t find a club that talked about Not Playing Soccer.
I thought about starting my own, but then I met a guy who didn’t collect stamps, and boy, did he ever turn my world upside down
I’ve been a non stamp collector ever since.
Sarah x
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tonyrey
Guest
I agree. That is truly unselfish love following the example of Jesus who wasn’t afraid of the risks or count the cost. “No greater love…”
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tonyrey
Guest
I don’t know whether it’s due to my half-Irish genes, my poverty as a child, my philosophical background or my cynicism about Western society after living in Africa for fifteen years. Probably all four plus other factors.Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t quite get your sense of humor
:hug1:
I will learn to recognize and love your dry sense of humor
Flippancy (in moderation) is a virtue. Philosophy should be fun and not deathly serious all the time. I love it because it encompasses everything.
You’re right. There’s no point unless you belong to a small group of individuals who are more interested in the subject than anything else. They’re not charismatic evangelists but philosophers who have a common interest. When others start becoming fanatical it’s time to go home!
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atheistgirl
Guest
How would a muslim doctor or nurse, or atheist doctor or nurse, who, through their intentional and deliberate response to promote well-being when responding to that which has generated ill-being, unconditionally, i.e. an unselfish response to promote well-being regardless of what others have done, are murdered, be following the example of someone they either don’t believe died, or don’t believe ever existed, and in neither case was a Deity
That claim in their case could be seen as an attempt to undermine their sheer bravery, courage, and willingness to die for their fellow man in their attempt to improve their welbeing through empathy with their human suffering.
It seems to be critically important to some Christians, that only Christians can show Agape. It seems to be a central plank of their theology.
And it’s simply not true.
Sarah x
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tonyrey
Guest
Everyone who accepts the principle that the noblest thing we can do is to risk our life, suffer torture and be killed because we are helping others has faith in the example and teaching of Jesus whether or not we profess to be Christians. What we claim to believe or disbelieve is insignificant compared to the way we live.How would a muslim doctor or nurse, or atheist doctor or nurse, who, through their intentional and deliberate response to promote well-being when responding to that which has generated ill-being, unconditionally, i.e. an unselfish response to promote well-being regardless of what others have done, are murdered, be following the example of someone they either don’t believe died, or don’t believe ever existed, and in neither case was a Deity
That claim in their case could be seen as an attempt to undermine their sheer bravery, courage, and willingness to die for their fellow man in their attempt to improve their welbeing through empathy with their human suffering.
It seems to be critically important to some Christians, that only Christians can show Agape. It seems to be a central plank of their theology.
And it’s simply not true.
Many Christians are far less Christian than non-Christians!
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atheistgirl
Guest
Right.
In exactly the same way as anyone who donates money to the poor has faith in the example and teaching of my youngest daughter, who gave all the money she had saved from her lose change jar to a homeless guy she passed on the way home from school, to buy food with.
Even though they never met her, don’t know anything about her, and many don’t even know she exists or might not even believe she exists.
Agreed.
Until some Christians try to make quite outlandish claims that only a Christian can act out of Agape for their fellow man.
No definition of the word that I’ve seen has the word Christian in it, nor is it implied it is only applicable to Christians. As I said I particularly like Oord’s. Lewis says it’s ‘‘the love that brings forth caring regardless of the circumstance’’, which prety much sums up MSF and others.
Sarah x
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PRmerger
Guest
I especially remember posts that are absurd, inocente.
But I do have a special ability to remember what I read.
And my memory for numbers used to be phenomenal. Sadly, with each baby that I’ve borne some of those brain cells have deteriorated and for some reason I cannot remember phone numbers now.
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PRmerger
Guest
Yes, you do. And I would, too, entertain the idea that the PAK exists, if the discussion were about, say, whether the PAK would give his life for a Catholic.
But you don’t concede God exists in a discussion that’s specifically asking for evidence for God’s existence do you?
Similarly, I’m not going to concede the PAK exists in a discussion that specifically asking for evidence for this PAK.
What are you talking about Sam? What question do you want me to answer?
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