Is Christian faith necessary for Selfless Love?

[DeepBlueSea]

Technically, Kolbe didn’t die for God either.

That was a bold statement. Didn’t his compassion for others stem from his faith in Christ? So he essentially died not so much for defending his Christian faith but he died for living out his Christian faith?

As regards Kolbe’s behaviour in Auschwitz, one thing he had in common with several other prisoners was Christianity. Yet the others were not all giving up their lives for the sake of others. Therefore it must have been something particular about Kolbe himself, about how his experiences had affected him, that led to his actions. Claiming all the credit for Christian faith is erroneous.

This could be attributed to the fact that he was a priest. It is his priestly duty to look after his flock and minister to them. Wouldn’t his faith in Christ embolden him to carry out his priestly duty even at the expense of his life?

 

[PRmerger]

I’ve never had direct evidence that every human being has a respiratory system, either.

This provides a nice segue for me to limn exactly what my objection is to atheism, as posited by atheists on this forum.

Either, they deny the existence of the Phantom Atheistic Kolbe, using the same paradigm they use to deny God’s existence: there is no evidence for his existence.

OR

They propose the possibility of the PAK, but then they also MUST, if they’re being logical, proclaim the possibility of the existence of God.

They can’t have it both ways.

I will continue to challenge and prod those atheists who continue to be illogical in their reasoning, until their reason screams,

“I must be consistent! Either I acknowledge that there is no PAK, and I can remain atheist OR I cling to the fact that there **may be **a PAK out there, and then I insert doubt into my atheistic denial and consider that there **may be **a God out there”

[SIGN1]It’s what logic dictates.[/SIGN1]

 

[atheistgirl]

That was a bold statement. Didn’t his compassion for others stem from his faith in Christ? So he essentially died not so much for defending his Christian faith but he died for living out his Christian faith?

He’s supposed to have had a vision when he was a young boy, of Mary, who offered him the choice of being a martyr, which he chose.

Perhaps this was playing on his mind, that now was the right time to step up, to make a vision he had years earlier, come true?

Knowing at the age of 12 that at some point in the future, you would be a martyr, and therefor by definition have your place in heave assured and guaranteed, must be quite a comfort, in fact an indescribable comfort, and not something just about every other Christian enjoys.

Wouldn’t his faith in Christ embolden him to carry out his priestly duty even at the expense of his life?

There were 167 other Catholic priests in Auschwitz, none of whom offered their lives in the place of others, so I don’t think it has anything to do with priestly duty.

The accounts I’ve read of his words to the commandant, include ‘‘I am old’’ (he was only in his 40s) and ‘‘I am alone’’ ‘‘I have no one and he has a family’’.

The words are interesting, and combined with his starvation and beatings, and his medical condition, may indicate someone who, frankly, has had enough of life, or may have felt he was about to die soon anyhow, and remembering a vision of being a martyr, decided now was as good a time as any to end it all, and let some good come from it.

His place in heaven, was, after all, assured from a long time earlier.

However, no one actually knows the state of his mind at the time. The Church has declared him a saint, which I don’t dispute or have a problem with as that is for the Church.

But if the argument is entertained no one can know the mind of the atheist when they offered and risked their lives for others, it seems to me no one can know the exact state of his mind either.

He may, in fact, have lost all faith, and all will to live, looking at the horror around him, and not knowing how much longer he could live out a starvation existence, decided to end it all in despair, knowing the end would come soon, but horrifically, in that bunker.

We know that those that have decided to end their lives, carry on as normal right up to the moment they pull the rope or trigger. So it could be with him carrying on being a priest. But he knew his sufferings would be over much quicker than if he stayed above ground.

To clarify, I know what the Church declaration means, and I am not desputing it as that is the Churches business and for Her to decided.

I am simply pointing out that for me, personally, I have some questions around this man and his actions that are enough to raize suspicions for me

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

Technically, Kolbe didn’t die for God either.

As regards Kolbe’s behaviour in Auschwitz, one thing he had in common with several other prisoners was Christianity. Yet the others were not all giving up their lives for the sake of others. Therefore it must have been something particular about Kolbe himself, about how his experiences had affected him, that led to his actions. Claiming all the credit for Christian faith is erroneous.

•                             This could be attributed to the fact that he was a priest. It is  his priestly duty to look after his flock and minister to them. Wouldn't  his faith in Christ embolden him to carry out his priestly duty even at  the expense of his life?

Like Archbishop Romero in San Salvador and Father Jerzy Popieluszko in Poland, to name but two of the many priests and nuns who have served God by living and dying for the poor. I knew the Trappist monks in Algeria who were murdered even though they had a dispensary for the poor.

Materialism is not a source of inspiration but frustration and desolation. How could it be otherwise in a valueless, purposeless and meaningless universe?

 

[PRmerger]

There were 167 other Catholic priests in Auschwitz, none of whom offered their lives in the place of others, so I don’t think it has anything to do with priestly duty.

Right.

It wasn’t because he was a* priest* that he gave his life out of love for another in such a selfless way. It was because he was a Christian.

 

[atheistgirl]

Like Archbishop Romero in San Salvador and Father Jerzy Popieluszko in Poland, to name but two of the priests and nuns who have served God by living and dying for the poor…

No different to those brillantly clever and wonderful secular humanists who, instead of running multimillion $ industries, devote their time and energy to the poor, improving health services, economics and agriculture, at the sure and certain risk to their own lives, many of whom have been killed, serving out of empathy for their fellow man and wanting to leave a better world for all.

Materialism is not a source of inspiration but frustration and desolation. How could it be otherwise in a valueless, purposeless and meaningless universe?

Not for me, my family, and all my friends and associates

Please take a moment when you submit a reply to make sure you’ve quoted properly. This makes responing to your posts easier as we don’t have to correct your errors to make sure we’re highlighting the correct post we’re responding to

Sarah x

 

[packermann]

This is in response to an issue arising in another thread - the claim that Christian faith is necessary for acts of selflessness such as that of Maximilian Kolbe, who willingly gave up his life to Nazi cruelty in Auschwitz so that another man could go on living.

I don’t intend this thread to turn into a heated (and potentially abusive) debate over the relative merits of faith or lack of faith; so I would initially try to focus the discussion upon the kinds of motivations that lead us to sacrifice ourselves, in whatever fashion - from the merely inconvenient to the genuinely difficult or even prohibitively hard - for the benefit of others.

In short, is it necessary to believe in Christ in order to act in a truly altruistic manner? If so, what is it, exactly, that Christianity adds to the mix to motivate selflessness? Not least among the relevant considerations are the question of whether love, in any form, can actually be a selfless experience; and is it truly selfless to act in a manner that one believes will be rewarded in an eternal afterlife? Does an act of goodness, charity, or the rendering of significant assistance to others lose its value if one gains benefit from that action, even if the benefit is simply feeling good about oneself?

You seem to contradict yourself here.

First, you question whether it is necessary to believe in Christ in order to do an act of selfless love. Second, you question whether any selfless love is possible. So how can it be possible that one who does not believe in Christ can do a selfless act when no one can do a selfless act?

Also, in your example of St Maximillian Kolbe, I doubt that he did it in order to go to heaven. I am sure he was pretty confident of his own salvation whether he did it or not. So did he do it to feel about himself. I doubt it. He was in the concentration camp for quite sometime already. For him to feel good about anything in that place is itself a miracle. St John of the Cross talked about the Dark Night of the Soul. The Catholic teaching is that there is no guarrantee that doing a selfless act will make one feel good at all, much less in a Nazi concentration camp!

 

[tonyrey]

No different to those brillantly clever and wonderful secular humanists who, instead of running multimillion $ industries, devote their time and energy to the poor, improving health services, economics and agriculture, at the sure and certain risk to their own lives, many of whom have been killed, serving out of empathy for their fellow man and wanting to leave a better world for all.

They are living in a post-Christian society which would otherwise be still at the level of the Greeks and Romans…

Materialism is not a source of inspiration but frustration and desolation. How could it be otherwise in a valueless, purposeless and meaningless universe?

Not for me, my family, and all my friends and associates

You haven’t considered the full implications of living in a valueless, purposeless and meaningless universe. As you get older it will dawn on you…

 

[TEPO]

To act selflessly is not a trait exclusive to Christians at all. Neither is love an exclusively Christian trait.

A suicide bomber is very much selfless. Also, non-Christian families would surely love their spouses and children.

But the Christian faith teaches the proper balance between selflessness and love, and the application of it on an eternal scale.

 

[PRmerger]

The Catholic teaching is that there is no guarrantee that doing a selfless act will make one feel good at all, much less in a Nazi concentration camp!

Right.

Catholic teaching is that suffering is redemptive, not salutary for one’s emotions.

Perhaps if this were a discussion in an evangelical Christian forum the atheist could pose that argument, but not in a Catholic forum where there are Catholics who are knowledgeable about Catholicism.

 

[atheistgirl]

You haven’t considered the full implications of living in a valueless, purposeless and meaningless universe. As you get older it will dawn on you…

Good Morning Sir, Welcome to Atheistgirl Industries. You’ll find the Condescension Room six floors up, second room on your left. Please wear your visitors ID at all times for security and please return your tag to me at reception on your exist from the building. Please sign here … and here … is there anything else I may help you with

You have no idea what I have considered, thought through, and reflected on.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

Good Morning Sir, Welcome to Atheistgirl Industries. You’ll find the Condescension Room six floors up, second room on your left. Please wear your visitors ID at all times for security and please return your tag to me at reception on your exist from the building. Please sign here … and here … is there anything else I may help you with

You have no idea what I have considered, thought through, and reflected on.

Sarah x

It is evident from your statements…

 

[tonyrey]

To act selflessly is not a trait exclusive to Christians at all. Neither is love an exclusively Christian trait.

A suicide bomber is very much selfless. Also, non-Christian families would surely love their spouses and children.

But the Christian faith teaches the proper balance between selflessness and love, and the application of it on an eternal scale.

An excellent point! It distorts one’s values to regard life on earth as the sum total of our existence. “Eat, drink and be merry…”

If we believe we are just animals it doesn’t leave us much scope.

 

[atheistgirl]

It is evident from your statements…

Oh, I’m sorry, please excuse me Sir. I’ve misdirected you.

I see from your paperwork, you need the Patronizing Room.

Two floors down, third room on your right.

If I may help you with anything else, please let me know.

 

[samiam1611]

Curiously, though, atheists will believe that the PAK exists, without any direct evidence (or, let’s be honest any indirect evidence), but deny the existence of God, using the very same ideology.

Why the difference? I don’t get it.

It’s simple really.

Accepting the claim that God exists means believing in the supernatural. PAK is not supernatural. For me, that is the clincher. Reason alone will never convince this atheist that the supernatural exists. :nope:

I am not nearly as sceptical of natural events/people. If it’s physically possible, it’s possible.

 

[TEPO]

It’s simple really.

Accepting the claim that God exists means believing in the supernatural. PAK is not supernatural. For me, that is the clincher. Reason alone will never convince this atheist that the supernatural exists. :nope:

I am not nearly as sceptical of natural events/people. If it’s physically possible, it’s possible.

I couldn’t be that way… It would reduce life to something much less interesting. Just my opinion.

What is PAK, by the way?

 

[atheistgirl]

It would reduce life to something much less interesting. Just my opinion.

It’s because I believe we have this one life only, that life is so very interesting and precious. It motivates me not to waste a second of it.

Sarah x

 

[PRmerger]

It’s simple really.

Accepting the claim that God exists means believing in the supernatural.

Right.

PAK is not supernatural.

No, he is not supernatural.

But he is also, thus far, non-existent.

For me, that is the clincher. Reason alone will never convince this atheist that the supernatural exists. :nope:

I get that.

But think about it:* why* don’t you believe the supernatural doesn’t exist?

Because…

there’s no evidence (per your paradigm) for the supernatural to exist.

But what evidence do you have for the existence of the PAK?

None. That’s what you have so far.

I am not nearly as sceptical of natural events/people. If it’s physically possible, it’s possible.

Why are you so skeptical of supernatural events, sam?

 

[PRmerger]

I couldn’t be that way… It would reduce life to something much less interesting. Just my opinion.

What is PAK, by the way?

The Phantom Atheistic Kolbe.

My moniker for this elusive creation of atheists who proclaim that there exists, somewhere, an atheistic equivalent to St. Maximilian Kolbe. Someone who has given his life, out of great love for another, in the manner of Kolbe.

Now, to be sure, there are atheists who are nice people. Moral people. Even heroic and patriotic people.

But I have been asking for evidence for this PAK for a very, very long time, and thus far no atheist has been able to provide me with anyone even close to Kolbe.

However, curiously, given the atheistic paradigm for demand for evidence in every other arena of their life, the atheists are very willing to proclaim, on faith, that this PAK exists somewhere.

 

[TEPO]

The Phantom Atheistic Kolbe.

My moniker for this elusive creation of atheists who proclaim that there exists, somewhere, an atheistic equivalent to St. Maximilian Kolbe. Someone who has given his life, out of great love for another, in the manner of Kolbe.

Now, to be sure, there are atheists who are nice people. Moral people. Even heroic and patriotic people.

But I have been asking for evidence for this PAK for a very, very long time, and thus far no atheist has been able to provide me with anyone even close to Kolbe.

However, curiously, given the atheistic paradigm for demand for evidence in every other arena of their life, the atheists are very willing to proclaim, on faith, that this PAK exists somewhere.

. Hahaha…

TEPO likes.