Is Christian faith necessary for Selfless Love?

[atheistgirl]

Life becomes a valueless, purposeless and meaningless accident.

My accidental life is a life full to the lid of value, purpose and meaning, and it’s wonderful.

Camus and Sartre were correct in their view that life is absurd.

What’s absurd is people trying to justify why my life is meaningless valueless and purposeless.

Freedom, justice and human rights become illusions.

No problem, I can still call the cops and the firehouse and get a response in minutes. I can still get the criminal put behind bars. My kids aren’t discriminated against and my youngest girl can become President. I was able to go back to school as an adult and finish my education, and I vote!

I love the illusion of my life.

For any reasonable person materialism leads inexorably to frustration and desolation at the prospect of losing everything we cherish for all eternity.

Nope. I’m a perfectly reasonable person, I understand the cycle of life, and I love it. I feel not one ounce of frustration or desolation. I won’t ‘‘lose’’ everything I cherish, because I don’t ‘‘own’’ the things I cherish most - the people in my life.

To anticipate **nothing **after death cannot be a source of inspiration and consolation unless life is regarded as a curse rather than a blessing.

Nope. The certain knowledge (to me) there is nothing more than this life, inspires me every minute of every day to make the most of this one life I have, and the people I share it with. It is the greatest source of inspiration and motivation I know, and it makes me happy to know I am inspiring others to not waste their lives either.

Selfless love is impossible for a materialist because persons don’t exist in the scientific scheme of things.

Oh dear. Any relative of Kant?

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

But of course your definition of person-hood is a bit of a straw-man in the eyes of a Christian, not to mention if universal naturalism is true then one must ask if person-hood has any objective value or meaning in the first place…

Kindly point out the post where* I defined what I *think personhood is.

I recommend reading my posts, before reponding to them.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

Life becomes a valueless, purposeless and meaningless accident.

I’m afraid it’s all in the mind. But wait a minute… You don’t believe we have a mind. Where on earth would it come from?

Camus and Sartre were correct in their view that life is absurd.

What’s absurd is people trying to justify why my life is meaningless valueless and purposeless.

They were hardly fools: both of them received the Nobel prize - and they were both atheists. So some one must be mistaken. I wonder who…

Freedom, justice and human rights become illusions.

No problem, I can still call the cops and the firehouse and get a response in minutes. I can still get the criminal put behind bars. My kids aren’t discriminated against and my youngest girl can become President. I was able to go back to school as an adult and finish my education, and I vote!

It just goes to show that materialism doesn’t correspond to real life, doesn’t it?

I love the illusion of my life.

We all know why! You feel absolutely free…

For any reasonable person materialism leads inexorably to frustration and desolation at the prospect of losing everything we cherish for all eternity.

Nope. I’m a perfectly reasonable person, I understand the cycle of life, and I love it. I feel not one ounce of frustration or desolation. I won’t ‘‘lose’’ everything I cherish, because I don’t ‘‘own’’ the things I cherish most - the people in my life.

Would you tell them you won’t be sad to leave them and you’re glad to be parted from them for all eternity? Or will you keep it a secret?

To anticipate nothing after death cannot be a source of inspiration and consolation unless life is regarded as a curse rather than a blessing.

Nope. The certain knowledge (to me) there is nothing more than this life, inspires me every minute of every day to make the most of this one life I have, and the people I share it with. It is the greatest source of inspiration and motivation I know, and it makes me happy to know I am inspiring others to not waste their lives either.

It could be regarded as a futile attempt to ignore the inevitable moment of extinction by pulling the wool over your eyes, pretending everything is hunkydory and living in a fool’s paradise…

It also seems somewhat inconsistent with the view that this life is so atrocious (rather than wonderful!) that it cannot possibly have been designed and created by a loving God…

Selfless love is impossible for a materialist because persons don’t exist in the scientific scheme of things.

Oh dear. Any relative of Kant?

The fact remains that persons don’t exist in the scientific scheme of things - which suggests that “something is rotten in the state of Denmark”…

 

[atheistgirl]

1. For any reasonable person materialism leads inexorably to frustration and desolation at the prospect of losing everything we cherish for all eternity.

As there is no guarantee we would ever see our loved ones again anyhow, because we, or they, may end up in hell, if there’s one thought guaranteed to fill someone with desolation and frustration is the thought of their loved ones buring forever and ever without end, in hell

No thanks.

Leaving new life behind, leaving the place a little bit better than when you found it, and going back to the earth at peace and content when your life is over is infinitely more reasonable to me, and totally free of any thought of desolation or frustration.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Where on earth would it come from?

Just atoms doing their thang

They were hardly fools: both of them received the Nobel prize - and they were both atheists. So some one must be mistaken. I wonder who…

I don’t much care for any appeal to their authority or what they believed or didnt believe. It’s irrelevant to me and my life.

We all know why! You feel absolutely free…

No I don’t. I’m constrained by the law and by my own moral code, and the norms of the society I live in. And I’m happy to conform as it is what’s best for me, my family, and the people I live with and around.

Would you tell them you won’t be sad to leave them and you’re glad to be parted from them for all eternity?

Yeah that’s right. I’m going to burst out laughing and dance to my death bed. Did you not understand anything I’ve written.

It could be regarded as a futile attempt to ignore the inevitable moment of extinction by pulling the wool over your eyes, pretending everything is hunkydory and living in a fool’s paradise…

Nope. It’s just life.

It also seems somewhat inconsistent with the view that this life is so atrocious (rather than wonderful!) that it cannot possibly have been designed and created by a loving God…

Correct. I don’t believe this life was designed and created by a loving God. That’s why I can deal with the good the bad and the ugly, no problem. I take it as I find it, and it makes sense.

It doesnt make sense when a loving God is introduced. But I don’t have to worry about that.

The fact remains that persons don’t exist in the scientific scheme of things - which suggests that “something is rotten in the state of Denmark”…

‘‘Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much’’

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

As there is no guarantee we would ever see our loved ones again anyhow, because we, or they, may end up in hell, if there’s one thought guaranteed to fill someone with desolation and frustration is the thought of their loved ones buring forever and ever without end, in hell. No thanks.

A primitive notion which certainly doesn’t correspond to the fact that only those who choose to live for themselves rather than others get exactly what they want: a state of self-imposed isolation with absolute power to do anything they like (within their own limited domain of course). There is plenty of evidence of that in this world, let alone the next. The lust for power is very hard to resist if we are to go by the atrocities that are committed to get it and keep it…

Leaving new life behind, leaving the place a little bit better than when you found it, and going back to the earth at peace and content when your life is over is infinitely more reasonable to me, and totally free of any thought of desolation or frustration.

Regardless of all the unrectified injustice and needless suffering of the innocent victims of those who supposedly get away with their crimes scotfree… Infinitely more unreasonable to my way of thinking - but then I’m neither a cynic, sceptic, pessimist or fatalist (or materialist who stakes everything on a brief spark in the darkness of eternity).

 

[atheistgirl]

Regardless of all the unrectified injustice and needless suffering of the innocent victims of those who supposedly get away with their crimes scotfree… Infinitely more unreasonable to my way of thinking

Whats unreasonable to my way of thinking is this person above, who inflicted injustice and needless suffering on people, and was never tried in a civil court or got prison time, can, after getting away with it for 90 years, find God in a heartbeat, repent, and enjoy eternity in heaven.

Even if they go to hell (and there seems to be as many versions of hell as people I’ve asked!) according to you, they arent being ‘‘punished’’ in any way, or restitution being made for their crimes: they’ll enjoy ‘‘a state of self-imposed isolation with absolute power to do anything they like’’!

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

Where on earth would it come from?

Irrational, purposeless particles > rational, purposeful persons???

They were hardly fools: both of them received the Nobel prize - and they were both atheists. So some one must be mistaken. I wonder who…

I don’t much care for any appeal to their authority or what they believed or didnt believe. It’s irrelevant to me and my life.

You obviously don’t care for their reasons either. It’s safer to stay in the dark!

We all know why! You feel absolutely free…

No I don’t. I’m constrained by the law and by my own moral code, and the norms of the society I live in. And I’m happy to conform as it is what’s best for me, my family, and the people I live with and around.

“my own moral code” gives the game away. Isn’t that absolutely free? After all, the law is an *** and you, your family, and the people you live with and around are all directly linked to you.

Would you tell them you won’t be sad to leave them and you’re glad to be parted from them for all eternity?

Yeah that’s right. I’m going to burst out laughing and dance to my death bed. Did you not understand anything I’ve written.

I understand perfectly and you are evading the issue - rather emotionally…

It could be regarded as a futile attempt to ignore the inevitable moment of extinction by pulling the wool over your eyes, pretending everything is hunkydory and living in a fool’s paradise…

Nope. It’s just life.

A sort of life for those who prefer not to discover what eminent atheists believe…

It also seems somewhat inconsistent with the view that this life is so atrocious (rather than wonderful!) that it cannot possibly have been designed and created by a loving God…

Correct. I don’t believe this life was designed and created by a loving God. That’s why I can deal with the good the bad and the ugly, no problem. I take it as I find it, and it makes sense.

How does the bad and the ugly fit into your wonderful life? Does the good and the beautiful outweigh the bad and the ugly?

It doesnt make sense when a loving God is introduced. But I don’t have to worry about that.

Freedom from “worry about that” is another sign of the determination to be free from a higher authority - and not to delve too deeply.

The fact remains that persons don’t exist in the scientific scheme of things - which suggests that “something is rotten in the state of Denmark”…

‘‘Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much’’

The fact remains that persons don’t exist in the scientific scheme of things - and it is illogical to pretend that they do.

 

[tonyrey]

Whats unreasonable to my way of thinking is this person above, who inflicted injustice and needless suffering on people, and was never tried in a civil court or got prison time, can, after getting away with it for 90 years, find God in a heartbeat, repent, and enjoy eternity in heaven.

That person exists only in your imagination!

Even if they go to hell (and there seems to be as many versions of hell as people I’ve asked!) according to you, they arent being ‘‘punished’’ in any way, or restitution being made for their crimes: they’ll enjoy ‘‘a state of self-imposed isolation with absolute power to do anything they like’’!

You seem to be unaware of the disadvantages of total isolation - which is hardly surprising because you have never experienced it. Neither have I but it strikes me as the epitome of hell. To love oneself more than anyone else is a form of insanity but it is culpable insanity because the egoist is fully aware of what he wants and couldn’t less about anyone else…

 

[atheistgirl]

Irrational, purposeless particles > rational, purposeful persons???

Yep.

You obviously don’t care for their reasons either. It’s safer to stay in the dark!

I live my life in the light.

“my own moral code” gives the game away. Isn’t that absolutely free? After all, the law is an *** and you, your family, and the people you live with and around are all directly linked to you.

There’s tons of info out there on the evolution of our morals. I subscribe to the theories that exclude any form of the supernatural. I’m not going to write about the E word here as it pertains to morals. It’s all there on the net for you to read, and I’m sure you’ve read it. So you know we’re not ‘‘absolutely free’’. Incidently, those who think they get their moral authority and objectivity from a Divine Source seem to be much freer than I am - I don’t steal, murder, rape, and I cant do those things. This Divine Source of morality doesnt seem to be enough to stop believers though.

I understand perfectly and you are evading the issue - rather emotionally…

Now you are just trolling and when Ive finished my reply to this post, you’re going on ignore. This is the best thing to do with those who’s post are trollish. There’s been nothing emotional what so ever in my replies to you. Clearly you have not read what I’ve said or you’re not capable of understanding it. Probably because it doesnt suit your world view, and you just cannot accept there are people like me with no need for your framework.

You have been condescending and patronizing to me as I pointed out earlier, which I let slide, and now you accuse me of evasion and being emotional

Lol - - the hysterical, irrational, emotional woman You really are old school huh?

A sort of life for those who prefer not to discover what eminent atheists believe…

Do you need everything repeated for you? I’ve answered that fully already. It’s irrelevant to me what they believe.

How does the bad and the ugly fit into your wonderful life?

It doesn’t ‘‘fit in’’ - I take it as I find it. It’s life. What I don’t do is blame a God for it, or ask a God to rectify it. Which is just as well, as there’s no evidence this Deity listens.

The fact remains that persons don’t exist in the scientific scheme of things - and it is illogical to pretend that they do.

The fact remains we’re here. And some of us ‘‘have no need of that hypothesis’’ to explain our life satisfactorily.

Now, I wish you well, but our conversations have come to an end.

Sarah x

 

[PRmerger]

if you are an atheist, then you should agree that the concept of person-hood excludes young born babies and people with severe mental impairment.

:bigyikes:

You can’t be serious, Reap.

Atheists proclaim that personhood excludes people with severe mental impairment as well as newborn babies?

 

[ReapReason]

Yep.

Incidently, those who think they get their moral authority and objectivity from a Divine Source seem to be much freer than I am - I don’t steal, murder, rape, and I cant do those things.

Sarah x

And yet you have no objectively rational reason to aspire not to steal cheat murder and rape accept for fear of what other contingent beings think of you. In the world you think you live in, the act of aspiring to the dictates of some kind of moral truth makes you either a victim of an irrational illusion or a slave of circumstances beyond your power; and any disgust or sense of guilt for any action is equally an objectively meaningless produce of physics.

So I fail to understand why you think that you truly have the moral upper hand by being an atheist and at the same time performing acts that conform to subjective cultural standards or the desires of others. True morality can only be known if there is such a thing as true morality, rather than a set rules which happen to fit the mould of social survival and appreciation.

Truly good people do good because they know that it is truly good; and they care because they know it is truly good to care despite their feelings or insercurities; as opposed to behaving in a particular manner for social and cultural benefits. They know that they ought to do good. True morality is not suppose to be the whim of some vein egotistical fantasy (hey look at me I am a good person, and I am not religious!!!) .

Such is vanity and is meaningless.

 

[ReapReason]

:bigyikes:

You can’t be serious, Reap.

Atheists proclaim that personhood excludes people with severe mental impairment as well as newborn babies?

I never said that. This is merely the rational implication of their philosophical world-veiw.

 

[tonyrey]

Irrational, purposeless particles > rational, purposeful persons???

Yep.

I live my life in the light.

!

There’s tons of info out there on the evolution of our morals. I subscribe to the theories that exclude any form of the supernatural. I’m not going to write about the E word here as it pertains to morals. It’s all there on the net for you to read, and I’m sure you’ve read it. So you know we’re not ‘‘absolutely free’’. Incidently, those who think they get their moral authority and objectivity from a Divine Source seem to be much freer than I am - I don’t steal, murder, rape, and I cant do those things. This Divine Source of morality doesnt seem to be enough to stop believers though.

A two-edged argumentum ad hominem. Atheists like Mao and Stalin weren’t exactly saints.

I understand perfectly and you are evading the issue - rather emotionally…

…
Now you are just trolling and when Ive finished my reply to this post, you’re going on ignore. This is the best thing to do with those who’s post are trollish. There’s been nothing emotional what so ever in my replies to you. Clearly you have not read what I’ve said or you’re not capable of understanding it. Probably because it doesnt suit your world view, and you just cannot accept there are people like me with no need for your framework.

You have not explained why, when or where I have failed to understand or reply.

You have been condescending and patronizing to me as I pointed out earlier, which I let slide, and now you accuse me of evasion and being emotional

Lol - - the hysterical, irrational, emotional woman You really are old school huh?
You are now exaggerating!

Yeah that’s right. I’m going to burst out laughing and dance to my death bed. Did you not understand anything I’ve written.

Such statements are hardly objective and dispassionate. You accuse me of “trolling” for no reason apart from the fact that you cannot refute my statements.

A sort of life for those who prefer not to discover what eminent atheists believe…

Do you need everything repeated for you? I’ve answered that fully already. It’s irrelevant to me what they believe.

In other words you believe only what you want to believe regardless of what others believe.

How does the bad and the ugly fit into your wonderful life?

It doesn’t ‘‘fit in’’ - I take it as I find it. It’s life. What I don’t do is blame a God for it, or ask a God to rectify it. Which is just as well, as there’s no evidence this Deity listens.

But you present it as a reason why God doesn’t exist

The fact remains we’re here. And some of us ‘‘have no need of that hypothesis’’ to explain our life satisfactorily.

You are still evading the fact that persons don’t exist in the scientific scheme of things - yet continue to believe they do.

Now, I wish you well, but our conversations have come to an end.

Thank you for your responses. You are entitled to ignore my posts but I’m entitled to point out what I consider to be false in anyone’s posts. That is the purpose of a forum.

If I have seemed antagonistic it is not towards you as person - ( I regard you as a nice person) - but towards the materialism you advocate because I’m convinced it drives many people to despair and suicide. ( I had a friend who did precisely that because she had lost her faith). They are tempted to see no point in living when they are faced with serious problems. It’s all very well when life seems wonderful but when we’re in trouble it’s a very different story.

 

[ReapReason]

!

If I have seemed antagonistic it is not towards you as person - ( I regard you as a nice person) - but towards the materialism you advocate because I’m convinced it drives many people to despair and suicide. ( I had a friend who did precisely that because she had lost her faith). They are tempted to see no point in living when they are faced with serious problems. It’s all very well when life seems wonderful but when we’re in trouble it’s a very different story.

I guess some people can afford to be atheist.

 

[atheistgirl]

So I fail to understand why you think that you truly have the moral upper hand by being an atheist

I don’t.

Truly good people do good because they know that it is truly good; and they care because they know it is truly good to care despite their feelings or insercurities;

I completely agree. We do good, because it is good. We care, because it is good to care. We know the benefits to us and society at large. No Deity required.

as opposed to behaving in a particular manner for social and cultural benefits.

Some do that for sure. Does that include believers of all faiths, that do things in the hope of an eternal reward with their God?

True morality is not suppose to be the whim of some vein egotistical fantasy

Right. Divine Command Theory is pretty dangerous for us all.

Sarah x

 

[PRmerger]

I We do good, because it is good. We care, because it is good to care. We know the benefits to us and society at large. No Deity required.

Right.

And we believe in a Deity because it’s True, not because it makes us good.

Believing in Santa Claus makes us good. But we don’t believe in him because he doesn’t exist.

 

[DeepBlueSea]

His place in heaven, was, after all, assured from a long time earlier.

However, no one actually knows the state of his mind at the time.

That’s exactly my point. No one knows the state of his mind at that time. Was he assured of his place in heaven? I wouldn’t venture to claim that he was assured of his place in heaven at that time because that would be presumptuous on my part for presuming that he was presumptuous of his place in heaven.

Having faith in Christ is not tantamount to being presumptuous of God’s will.

I don’t recall any saints who were presumptuous of God’s will.

He may, in fact, have lost all faith, and all will to live, looking at the horror around him, and not knowing how much longer he could live out a starvation existence, decided to end it all in despair, knowing the end would come soon, but horrifically, in that bunker.

I don’t think he lost all faith. On the contrary, his faith grew stronger, which explained why a midst such cruelty, he was still celebrating Mass and singing hymns with the prisoners. A man who had lost the will to live would not be celebrating Mass and singing hymns.

But he knew his sufferings would be over much quicker than if he stayed above ground.

Your insistence on knowing his mind really blows my mind. Not to mention discounting his many decades of well-documented faith in Christ.

I am simply pointing out that for me, personally, I have some questions around this man and his actions that are enough to raize suspicions for me.

I too am intrigued by his decision-making and his action, not just him, but people like Saint Paul & Saint Peter. What were going through their minds when they made the kind of decisions that are so confusing by conventional standard. Why did they go all the way for an ideal that seems so intangible by normal human standard? Did they know something that I don’t know? Did that experience something I have not experience yet?

It’s strange that you and I approach the same scenario with such different perspective and came to such different conclusion.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

When I think about it, how can any Christian love be truly selfless, except that love Jesus Himself demonstrated?

We are commanded to love each other. We believe that our eternal souls are at risk if we do not comply with these commands. That actually makes it impossible to distill truly selfless behavior. We are not making a free will decision if making the “right” decision determines our future. And if we would have made the decision, we’ll never know because we have already been threatened/bribed and we can’t undo it.

Moreover, if I say, “I risked my life for you because of my belief in God,” then what is that saying to the person I saved? It’s telling them, “it could have been anybody. Nothing special about you. I did it because I love God and God tells me this is what I need to do.”

If I say, “I risked my life for you because I believe in you and your future,” NOW I’m going to give a person a reason to be glad I saved them.

Alan

 

[atheistgirl]

A man who had lost the will to live would not be celebrating Mass and singing hymns.

No we know for people that have committed suicide (lost the will to live) that right to the moment of their death, they carried on as normal.

Your insistence on knowing his mind really blows my mind.

No I don’t claim to know his mind at all. I’m just not as convinced as some about his motivations, and have suspicions, but I recognize and acknowledge the Chuches view on this, and that the man is a Saint of the Catholic Church.

It’s strange that you and I approach the same scenario with such different perspective and came to such different conclusion.

Considering our world views, I don’t think it’s strange, but it’s interesting to me.

Sarah x