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Robert_Sock
Guest
It’s easy to LOVE a God who blesses us with grace, but the test comes when these graces are withdrawn! Keep praying.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
Ah, but see the words you used: “after”, “end”, “sinful”. You see, when you are at the library now, you cannot be at the mall now, but you can be later. Also, eating ends fasting; they cannot be done at the same time. Finally, marriage is damaged by the sin of adultery, and thus it damages the couple’s freedom to be married.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Here’s what Catholic priest has to say about the Dark Night, as described by St John of the Cross.
Which is exactly what John of the Cross is saying: learn to be at home in the darkness, do not run away from it, do not fight it or even try to understand it, embrace it -‘the night has eyes’. A new and different world is being born, what seem to be death pangs are in fact birth pangs, the soul in darkness is being renewed and transfigured; a new and [wonderful] beauty is born. Painful though it may be, there is in fact no other way except the way of trust and surrender, and ultimately of belief in the creative and transforming power of love. John’s invitation to accept ‘the dark ray of contemplation’ may not be easy, but there is no other way.
-Eugene McCaffrey, OCD
Which is exactly what John of the Cross is saying: learn to be at home in the darkness, do not run away from it, do not fight it or even try to understand it, embrace it -‘the night has eyes’. A new and different world is being born, what seem to be death pangs are in fact birth pangs, the soul in darkness is being renewed and transfigured; a new and [wonderful] beauty is born. Painful though it may be, there is in fact no other way except the way of trust and surrender, and ultimately of belief in the creative and transforming power of love. John’s invitation to accept ‘the dark ray of contemplation’ may not be easy, but there is no other way.
-Eugene McCaffrey, OCD
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MTarcisius
Guest
What you are now describing is a matter of physics not a matter of freedom. When fasting you have the freedom to eat.
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BobCatholic
Guest
You notice there is no joy in there. This is what life on this planet, in exile, is about.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
What, you think spirituality does not apply to real life?
You are (like many people in modern times) mistaking freedom, which is the ability to make choices, from liberty, which is having choices. They are worlds apart.
OK, let us make a mental exercise, and let us say that freedom is all about having choices, which is the thinking of the modern world. If that is so, then you have less freedom in the evening than in the morning, because you have less time to make choices. So it is with youth and aging: up to a certain point in your life, your freedom will peak then will decrease thereafter. Even just making a choice of doing something right now will decrease your freedom because you will have to give time to making that choice come true, and thus you deprive yourself of time to make other choices. Therefore, it seems that to increase your freedom you have to not make choices; yet the mere fact that you are not making a choice also deprives you of time to make choices later.
Can you not see your idea of freedom, that freedom is all about having choices, is self-defeating? No wonder the modern world is full of listlessness, depression, and vice!
And yet if you read classical texts, you will see that such a definition of freedom is foreign to our ancestors. Free will, by the definition itself, is all about making choices. It may seem that in some instances one is deprived of choices, but never will anyone be deprived of them. As BobCatholic said in another thread, you have always the choice to be bitter or to be better in any situation.
Therefore if freedom is all about making choices, then freedom is all about giving itself away, because when you make a choice you have to cut yourself off from making other conflicting choices. Thus, it is paradoxical, but nevertheless true, that the more one voluntarily gives away his freedom the more free he is.
EXACTLY it is a matter of physics! Man’s freedom is largely based on him being corporeal, that is, being bounded by space and time.
What, you think spirituality does not apply to real life?
And when you eat you lose the freedom to continue to fast now. You can restart the fast again, but not continue the fast earlier. Do you see the point?
You are (like many people in modern times) mistaking freedom, which is the ability to make choices, from liberty, which is having choices. They are worlds apart.
OK, let us make a mental exercise, and let us say that freedom is all about having choices, which is the thinking of the modern world. If that is so, then you have less freedom in the evening than in the morning, because you have less time to make choices. So it is with youth and aging: up to a certain point in your life, your freedom will peak then will decrease thereafter. Even just making a choice of doing something right now will decrease your freedom because you will have to give time to making that choice come true, and thus you deprive yourself of time to make other choices. Therefore, it seems that to increase your freedom you have to not make choices; yet the mere fact that you are not making a choice also deprives you of time to make choices later.
Can you not see your idea of freedom, that freedom is all about having choices, is self-defeating? No wonder the modern world is full of listlessness, depression, and vice!
And yet if you read classical texts, you will see that such a definition of freedom is foreign to our ancestors. Free will, by the definition itself, is all about making choices. It may seem that in some instances one is deprived of choices, but never will anyone be deprived of them. As BobCatholic said in another thread, you have always the choice to be bitter or to be better in any situation.
Therefore if freedom is all about making choices, then freedom is all about giving itself away, because when you make a choice you have to cut yourself off from making other conflicting choices. Thus, it is paradoxical, but nevertheless true, that the more one voluntarily gives away his freedom the more free he is.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
On the contrary, it is full of joy: “to be at home…embrace…a new and wonderful beauty…love…”
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TK421
Guest
There are mountains and valleys in the Christian life. When you’re walking uphill, you’ll be tired and undergoing exertions, but if that’s where the compass leads, then that is where you go. When you’re going downhill, the walking is easy and fast, but that is precisely the time when you’re most prone to trip. There are dangers to the Christian in happiness just as there are dangers to the Christian in sorrow. There are just as many spiritual dangers in times of ease as there are in times of difficulty. All of them are defeated through prayer. God will provide you with whatever you need.
This is where the theological virtue of hope comes in. If you are in a present state of pain, you can still rejoice, because of the knowledge of where you are going and what you are doing. You know, whether in sadness or in celebration, that you are on the road to Jerusalem. A soldier, far from home, pulls out a photograph of his family, and in that, he finds his strength and his comfort.
This is where the theological virtue of hope comes in. If you are in a present state of pain, you can still rejoice, because of the knowledge of where you are going and what you are doing. You know, whether in sadness or in celebration, that you are on the road to Jerusalem. A soldier, far from home, pulls out a photograph of his family, and in that, he finds his strength and his comfort.
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MTarcisius
Guest
I do not have time to formulate a response to this since you obviously do not care what I have to say.+JMJ+
EXACTLY it is a matter of physics! Man’s freedom is largely based on him being corporeal, that is, being bounded by space and time.
What, you think spirituality does not apply to real life?
And when you eat you lose the freedom to continue to fast now. You can restart the fast again, but not continue the fast earlier. Do you see the point?
You are (like many people in modern times) mistaking freedom, which is the ability to make choices, from liberty, which is having choices. They are worlds apart.
OK, let us make a mental exercise, and let us say that freedom is all about having choices, which is the thinking of the modern world. If that is so, then you have less freedom in the evening than in the morning, because you have less time to make choices. So it is with youth and aging: up to a certain point in your life, your freedom will peak then will decrease thereafter. Even just making a choice of doing something right now will decrease your freedom because you will have to give time to making that choice come true, and thus you deprive yourself of time to make other choices. Therefore, it seems that to increase your freedom you have to not make choices; yet the mere fact that you are not making a choice also deprives you of time to make choices later.
Can you not see your idea of freedom, that freedom is all about having choices, is self-defeating? No wonder the modern world is full of listlessness, depression, and vice!
And yet if you read classical texts, you will see that such a definition of freedom is foreign to our ancestors. Free will, by the definition itself, is all about making choices. It may seem that in some instances one is deprived of choices, but never will anyone be deprived of them. As BobCatholic said in another thread, you have always the choice to be bitter or to be better in any situation.
Therefore if freedom is all about making choices, then freedom is all about giving itself away, because when you make a choice you have to cut yourself off from making other conflicting choices. Thus, it is paradoxical, but nevertheless true, that the more one voluntarily gives away his freedom the more free he is.
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
sigh Your choice MTarcisius, as it is your choice to conclude that in spite of the fact that I am answering your posts point by point.
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MTarcisius
Guest
I suppose a simple response is that you are now describing a matter of time, not a matter of freedom. Freedom is defined as the ability to act, speak or think. People do not have the freedom (ability) to defy time. However when eating you have the freedom (ability) to eat or fast just not at the same time. Also when you are fasting you have the ability (freedom) to fast or eat, just not at the same time.
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MTarcisius
Guest
This statement is quite offensive and uncalled for.What, you think spirituality does not apply to real life?
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MTarcisius
Guest
I never made this mistake as you can see by the definition I provided for freedom.
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MTarcisius
Guest
Freedom is not all about having choices, so I think we are basically in agreement on this.
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MTarcisius
Guest
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
I actually am having fun answering your posts MTarcisius, so I hope we can continue this, and I do hope the moderators do not come with a» keep on topic" hammer" on us, so let me see if I can bring us back to topic.
The thing about freedom you have to consider is that you need time (and of course other resources) to make choices. Not only do you need time to determine the best choice you can do, but you need time to make your choice a reality.
Let us go back to the example of fasting and eating. We do agree that you cannot eat and fast at the same time, right? But I have to object that you do not lose the freedom to do one when you do the other and vice versa; maybe you may not lose the freedom totally, but indeed you lose degrees of it.
When you fast it becomes more difficult to maintain it because of the feeling of hunger, but indeed it is more difficult to re-attain the same level of fasting when you ended the previous fast with eating. Not only that but you need time. Therefore when you end a fast with eating you are less free to have the same level of fasting than if you just maintained the fast because of the effort and time needed to re-attain that level. But then, that is the reason why we are recommended to fast: so that we may increase out freedom by being able to strengthen it with exercise…
More telling though is the opposite. Granted, if the fasting is mild, just a few hours, you can eat anything you want to break the fast. However, what if your fasting was more severe, lasting days or even weeks? You will have to be very careful on how you break your fast, progressing from clear liquids to soft food and finally solid food. The longer your fast, the less free you are in breaking your fast.
You will see that this trend will be seen all throughout our lives: the more time you have given yourself to a choice, the less free you are to make other choices. Granted, those choices may open up new ones, but many others will be lessened or closed altogether. That is why the classics have maintained that freedom’s basic act is to give itself away.
I actually am having fun answering your posts MTarcisius, so I hope we can continue this, and I do hope the moderators do not come with a» keep on topic" hammer" on us, so let me see if I can bring us back to topic.
I have to make the case then that time is an important thing to consider when it comes to discussing freedom, as well as why I said man being corporeal is an integral part of his freedom.
The thing about freedom you have to consider is that you need time (and of course other resources) to make choices. Not only do you need time to determine the best choice you can do, but you need time to make your choice a reality.
Let us go back to the example of fasting and eating. We do agree that you cannot eat and fast at the same time, right? But I have to object that you do not lose the freedom to do one when you do the other and vice versa; maybe you may not lose the freedom totally, but indeed you lose degrees of it.
When you fast it becomes more difficult to maintain it because of the feeling of hunger, but indeed it is more difficult to re-attain the same level of fasting when you ended the previous fast with eating. Not only that but you need time. Therefore when you end a fast with eating you are less free to have the same level of fasting than if you just maintained the fast because of the effort and time needed to re-attain that level. But then, that is the reason why we are recommended to fast: so that we may increase out freedom by being able to strengthen it with exercise…
More telling though is the opposite. Granted, if the fasting is mild, just a few hours, you can eat anything you want to break the fast. However, what if your fasting was more severe, lasting days or even weeks? You will have to be very careful on how you break your fast, progressing from clear liquids to soft food and finally solid food. The longer your fast, the less free you are in breaking your fast.
You will see that this trend will be seen all throughout our lives: the more time you have given yourself to a choice, the less free you are to make other choices. Granted, those choices may open up new ones, but many others will be lessened or closed altogether. That is why the classics have maintained that freedom’s basic act is to give itself away.
I am sorry about this. I am surprised that you were offended by this, but I will refrain from making such comments from here on.
Awesome
Unfortunately I do and it’s not pretty I tell you
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TruthSeeker92
Guest
Hi,
It seems that you are experiencing what is called “spiritual desolation.” Many, many great saints have experienced the same thing you are going through. This happens sometimes and it is very important that you have a spiritual director, a priest or sister who is charitable, prudent and wise to talk to about this regularly.
I also urge you to read more about this here: ignatianspirituality.com/making-good-decisions/discernment-of-spirits/introduction-to-discernment-of-spirits
Interestingly, I have been reading Divine Mercy in My Soul, the Diary of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska and I can relate to some of the spiritual warfare St. Faustina went through. Perhaps you should pick up a copy for yourself and read it. It has helped me, it may do the same for you.
It seems that you are experiencing what is called “spiritual desolation.” Many, many great saints have experienced the same thing you are going through. This happens sometimes and it is very important that you have a spiritual director, a priest or sister who is charitable, prudent and wise to talk to about this regularly.
I also urge you to read more about this here: ignatianspirituality.com/making-good-decisions/discernment-of-spirits/introduction-to-discernment-of-spirits
Interestingly, I have been reading Divine Mercy in My Soul, the Diary of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska and I can relate to some of the spiritual warfare St. Faustina went through. Perhaps you should pick up a copy for yourself and read it. It has helped me, it may do the same for you.
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MTarcisius
Guest
We seem to be largely in agreement, however your opinion is based on your point of view.+JMJ+
I actually am having fun answering your posts MTarcisius, so I hope we can continue this, and I do hope the moderators do not come with a» keep on topic" hammer" on us, so let me see if I can bring us back to topic.
I have to make the case then that time is an important thing to consider when it comes to discussing freedom, as well as why I said man being corporeal is an integral part of his freedom.
The thing about freedom you have to consider is that you need time (and of course other resources) to make choices. Not only do you need time to determine the best choice you can do, but you need time to make your choice a reality.
Let us go back to the example of fasting and eating. We do agree that you cannot eat and fast at the same time, right? But I have to object that you do not lose the freedom to do one when you do the other and vice versa; maybe you may not lose the freedom totally, but indeed you lose degrees of it.
When you fast it becomes more difficult to maintain it because of the feeling of hunger, but indeed it is more difficult to re-attain the same level of fasting when you ended the previous fast with eating. Not only that but you need time. Therefore when you end a fast with eating you are less free to have the same level of fasting than if you just maintained the fast because of the effort and time needed to re-attain that level. But then, that is the reason why we are recommended to fast: so that we may increase out freedom by being able to strengthen it with exercise…
More telling though is the opposite. Granted, if the fasting is mild, just a few hours, you can eat anything you want to break the fast. However, what if your fasting was more severe, lasting days or even weeks? You will have to be very careful on how you break your fast, progressing from clear liquids to soft food and finally solid food. The longer your fast, the less free you are in breaking your fast.
You will see that this trend will be seen all throughout our lives: the more time you have given yourself to a choice, the less free you are to make other choices. Granted, those choices may open up new ones, but many others will be lessened or closed altogether. That is why the classics have maintained that freedom’s basic act is to give itself away.
I am sorry about this. I am surprised that you were offended by this, but I will refrain from making such comments from here on.
Awesome
Unfortunately I do and it’s not pretty I tell you
If your fast was very extreme you still have the freedom (ability) to end the fast you just have to go about it more carefully. I will concede that consume is more appropriate of a word than eat (for my argument) this was a semantical error on my part, however it depends on what is actually considered the “end” of the fast. The important point is that If you did not have the ability to stop fasting, then there would be no sacrifice involved. There would only be suffering. For example, if someone could not afford food then they are not sacrificing they are suffering (unless of course they deliberately put themselves in that situation).
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Rosebud77
Guest
I am not OK with what you describe while so many have not the means to live. My commitment made joyfully is to live as simply as is safe and give every cent I do not need. And my life is joyful in this. The less you have of earthly things the less you need and the deeper the joy and peace and fulfilment.
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MTarcisius
Guest
This is an excellent point.
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