Is Christianity about to triumph or fail?

[Charlemagne_II]

There cannot be any doubt that Christianity ruled the West in the Middle Ages. Does it any longer rule? Why or why not? What are the symptoms of Christianity now at the point of collapsing, or now at the point of a rebirth and expansion?

Admittedly, this is a vast subject that can go in a thousand directions at once. Perhaps we should try to limit the discussion as much as possible to Christianity in the United States?

If necessary, spin-off threads may need to be developed.

 

[tm30]

There cannot be any doubt that Christianity ruled the West in the Middle Ages. Does it any longer rule? Why or why not? What are the symptoms of Christianity now at the point of collapsing, or now at the point of a rebirth and expansion?

Admittedly, this is a vast subject that can go in a thousand directions at once. Perhaps we should try to limit the discussion as much as possible to Christianity in the United States?

If necessary, spin-off threads may need to be developed.

Christianity seems to have less and less influence on secular society. I believe we have already collapsed in that respect, but it is merely a temporal characteristic that, ironically, points to a Church that is becoming stronger at its spiritual core. As B16 envisioned, we are becoming smaller and stronger. The Church is becoming more monastic, i.e., hidden, because society has chosen to avert its eyes - has chosen the darkness over the light.

I envision that, as the century marches on, the Church will have the qualities of being in spiritual catacombs - many many hidden saints keeping the Church alive in spite of her public rejection. And, consequently, the Church will rise to a level of spiritual purification unseen because, “it is in weakness that power reaches its perfection.” The Church will be as great a contradiction as the Cross itself. The world will persecute the Church, and the Church will become 100-fold stronger, because

"For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God."

 

[SkinnyJay]

Christianity seems to have less and less influence on secular society. I believe we have already collapsed in that respect, but it is merely a temporal characteristic that, ironically, points to a Church that is becoming stronger at its spiritual core. As B16 envisioned, we are becoming smaller and stronger. The Church is becoming more monastic, i.e., hidden, because society has chosen to avert its eyes - has chosen the darkness over the light.

I envision that, as the century marches on, the Church will have the qualities of being in spiritual catacombs - many many hidden saints keeping the Church alive in spite of her public rejection. And, consequently, the Church will rise to a level of spiritual purification unseen because, “it is in weakness that power reaches its perfection.” The Church will be as great a contradiction as the Cross itself. The world will persecute the Church, and the Church will become 100-fold stronger, because

"For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God."

An interesting prediction which I hope is close to the truth. I believe we have forgotten how to love like Jesus loved, the radical love of Jesus is missing from todays american society. Peter Kreeft’s talks on love come to mind. I look at people in my own parish and how they worship God and I see where protestants come from. The looking for a deeper love that should be blindingly clear in Catholics but appears, in some Catholics, to simply not be there. I have found much inspiration from fellow Catholics in my parish as well as on this site but I almost feel weighed down by those who don’t, for example, get on their faces when Christ appears in the bread and wine becoming the Eucharist. Those who take their weekly vitamin pill of Christ and run off before the closing prayer!

I have no fear that God will always have His Church on Earth but a spiritual cleansing or maybe a spiritual understanding of what the Church is actually doing would be more appropriate.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

I have no fear that God will always have His Church on Earth but a spiritual cleansing or maybe a spiritual understanding of what the Church is actually doing would be more appropriate.

There is wisdom in this. Perhaps the Church needs to be made smaller so that it can be made purer and truer.

We see Gallup polls indicating that many Catholics do not believe the official teachings of the Church. Why do they bother to remain Catholic? Their presence in the Church is an obstacle to the pure and truthful Gospel being preached. Look at what’s happening at Notre Dame and other Catholic colleges, for examples. Look at the feeble efforts of the bishops to discipline the Catholic colleges.

We all know how slowly the Church moves, how slowly it moved to reform itself before the Reformation was imposed on it. But what is going on today, given the potential for much faster reform through the media and the colleges, seems simply unfathomable. Are the bishops also concerned that Christianity cannot effectively stand up to the secular powers of this world without unleashing a new wave of persecution against the Church?

Some would say the persecution has already begun, the Catholic Church being the only institution that it is now fashionable to defame without worry of consequences.

 

[dzheremi]

Hmmm. I do not understand this fixation on Christianity in the USA specifically. Maybe my problem is that my frame of reference for Catholicism is not the USA, but even taking myself and my experiences out of the equation, we still have a super-majority of Catholics outside of the USA proper. Put bluntly, the USA is something of an afterthought (because it is so new, and Protestantism is so deeply ingrained here), and whatever goes on in it is not necessarily reflective of the Church as a whole, which after all includes more Eastern Churches than the Western, even if the Western Church is so much larger.

In light of that, I think it is silly to chart the health of the Western Church in terms of raw numbers. Instead, I should like to look at it in terms of fidelity to Christ, to tradition, to the Early Church Fathers. To say that the Western Church would need to be a certain size (either get smaller or larger) to purify itself in order to most completely follow the doctrines it should be following anyway seems silly and not really addressing the problems of why proper doctrine is not followed to begin with. The Church is not too big nor too small; individuals within it are too unwilling or ignorant to treat it as the Body of Christ, and they/we come before it unworthily but without contriteness. Mass becomes people-centered rather than Christ-centered. Without strong leadership at a local level, what does it matter how many Catholics there are? What does ‘Catholic’ even mean in such a context?

 

[embraced]

I am not a theologian or a holder of a degree in religion but I wolud like to share my opinion about this topic. Chrisitanity is about knowing God. Jesus brought and taught the message that the kingdom of God is within us all. When we embrace this understanding in my opinion Chrsitianity looks a lot different then the church as an institution. I believe man created religion not God. Now I am sure some of you will think I am a new ager for this statement, but I am not. I am a believer in God. In my personal understanding my faith is to be a progressive, alive faith. When I was young I thought and acted as a child but when I have become older (in my faith) I will and am acting mature. The church institution has it purposes but ultimately faith is personal. There are moral laws that exist throughout the world and I believe God reveals Himself to everyone. Connecting with God is the first step of our walk with Him and the journey is never ending onto death. The body dies and returns to the earth, the spirit lives on with God, this is eternal life. Triumph and Failures will occur along the way this is all part of faith. There are many who would say we as believers should try as hard as we can to point out the errors of others, in politics, in social conditons and so on, well we should stand for those thinga that are good and right. Those things that bring forth good fruit, but the condition of the spirit in each man, they must find their way to connect with the divine and live according to what they feel is right to them. God is bigger than all the religious insititutions and oraganizations on earth. Jesus simply taught love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. This in essence should be the foundations of our faith. Where and how we choose to worship well in my opinion is up to us. We need to look at ourselves and gauge if our faith in Christianity is based on an organization or institution or on God and how we live our lives. My question to all who read the threads here would be, where does your personal faith stand? Would it survive without and institution, organization or denomination? Jesus embraced all who desired God and many came to Him becuase he chose not to judge but to love and call them freinds. In my opinion this is how we help those who haven’t connected with God, by loving them and extending friendship. I think many times people are pushed away from experiencing God because many fail to do these simple things. Thank you for allowing me to ramble, may God be with you all.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

*Without strong leadership at a local level, what does it matter how many Catholics there are? *

Have you put that cart before the horse?

Why is there not strong leadership at local levels? Is it precisely because the bishops are fearful that there are not enough true Catholics out there to cover their back? Read the Gallup polls. Catholics are not as Catholic as they used to be.

If that is the case, the numbers matter in the long run. The reason the Church was triumphant in the Middle Ages was because she had the numbers and the leadership knew they had the numbers … at least until the Reformation.

Perhaps the Church had too many numbers? Perhaps the power that corrupts does so because there is no one to oppose it?

Certainly the Church needs to grow, but it doesn’t grow by including more and more people who don’t believe what the Church teaches.

 

[dzheremi]

Have you put that cart before the horse?

Why is there not strong leadership at local levels? Is it precisely because the bishops are fearful that there are not enough true Catholics out there to cover their back? Read the Gallup polls. Catholics are not as Catholic as they used to be.

I’m not sure I understand your point about there not being enough “true Catholics out there to cover their backs”. Do the bishops depend on the laity in order to be able to teach what is true, or do the laity depend on their bishops in order to be taught what is true? How do people who formerly don’t know truth from falsehood grow to become “true Catholics” in the first place?

If that is the case, the numbers matter in the long run. The reason the Church was triumphant in the Middle Ages was because she had the numbers and the leadership knew they had the numbers … at least until the Reformation.

Hmm. That’s an interesting idea. Define “triumphant”, please. I have a feeling we may be arguing from entirely different understandings of the word.

Perhaps the Church had too many numbers? Perhaps the power that corrupts does so because there is no one to oppose it?

Whether or not there is opposition does not depend on numbers, though, so your first sentence and your second are not related. People may oppose large or small religions or sects on the same grounds.

Certainly the Church needs to grow, but it doesn’t grow by including more and more people who don’t believe what the Church teaches.

It needs to grow, it needs to shrink…this discussion can go on forever. My point was that it doesn’t need to do either, because the problem of ignorance is not remedied mathematically.

The Church and everyone in it are at God’s mercy. We should pray that we come to a deeper understanding of what that means in the U.S.A., and everywhere else for that matter.

 

[embraced]

It needs to grow, it needs to shrink…this discussion can go on forever. My point was that it doesn’t need to do either, because the problem of ignorance is not remedied mathematically.

The Church and everyone in it are at God’s mercy. We should pray that we come to a deeper understanding of what that means in the U.S.A., and everywhere else for that matter.

Well said. Why does this all seem like an us against them mentality…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

embraced

Where and how we choose to worship well in my opinion is up to us. We need to look at ourselves and gauge if our faith in Christianity is based on an organization or institution or on God and how we live our lives.

No doubt it is built on both. If you agree with Jesus, we agree with all he said, not just the parts we like.

And he said that he would build his Church upon a rock, and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Choosing a rock for his foundation shows that the Church matters very much to him as the vehicle by which his message would be spread out into the world. There would be no spreading of the Gospel at all if it were not for the Church. Indeed, it was the Church as an institution (the bishops gathered together) that assembled the Gospels and verified them as the word of God.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

It needs to grow, it needs to shrink…this discussion can go on forever. My point was that it doesn’t need to do either, because the problem of ignorance is not remedied mathematically.

Are you a Catholic? Have you forgotten your history lessons? Do you know why Catholics hid in catacombs to celebrate Mass? They were few in number and easy to persecute. They only came out of the catacombs as their numbers increased, and finally they became the official religion of the Empire. Small was important at first. Then great was important.

If “the problem of ignorance is not remedied mathematically,” why did Christ say go out to all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?

Is** all** not a mathematical figure?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

I*'m not sure I understand your point about there not being enough “true Catholics out there to cover their backs”*

Well, do you think the Catholic colleges are acting in accord with the bishops?

How many Catholic believe in the True Presence?

How many Catholic are pro-choice?

Etc., etc.

Catholics are drifting away from Catholic doctrine by the millions.

I guess if you don’t think numbers are important, that shouldn’t matter to you?

 

[SkinnyJay]

***Emphasis Added:***There are many who would say we as believers should try as hard as we can to point out the errors of others, in politics, in social conditons and so on, well we should stand for those thinga that are good and right. Those things that bring forth good fruit, but the condition of the spirit in each man, they must find their way to connect with the divine and live according to what they feel is right to them.

What you seem to be talking about is what is called moral relativism. Moral Relativism puts in peril our salvation. Here are links to Peter Kreeft and his talks on the subject:

Peter Kreeft: A Catholic Apologist, Professor of philosophy at Boston College and The King’s College, and author of over 45 books including Fundamentals of the Faith, Everything you Ever Wanted to Know about Heaven, and Back to Virtue. His ideas draw heavily from religious and philosophical tradition, especially Thomas Aquinas, Socrates, G. K. Chesterton and C. S. Lewis. Kreeft has writings on Socratic logic, the sea, Jesus Christ, the Summa Theologiae, angels, Blaise Pascal, and Heaven, as well as his work on the problem of evil, for which he was interviewed by Lee Strobel in his bestseller, The Case for Faith.

Audio is here

Text is here

 

[dzheremi]

I think you and I are arguing the same point, Charlemagne. Like I said in my first post, why does it matter how many Catholics there are if they don’t follow Catholic teachings? You seemed to agree when you said that the Church needs to grow but it can’t do so by adding more people who don’t believe in what it teaches.

My point is more that numbers, in and of themselves, are not a good indicator of the health of the Church. Quality and not quantity should be the rule. There may be only around a million Catholics in Lebanon, for instance, but I would wager dollars to donuts that however many/few among the Maronites and other Eastern Catholics there are that follow what their Church teaches are worth the several million Catholics elsewhere who do not.

The correctness of doctrine and hence the purity of the Churches that disseminate and follow that doctrine does not depend on numbers. What is true for one or two individuals is true for one or two million. That’s my only point, and it doesn’t change no matter what historical situations you bring up. (And, yes, I am a Catholic who believes in the True Presence and is against perversions of the concept of “choice”.)

 

[embraced]

embraced

And he said that he would build his Church upon a rock, and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Choosing a rock for his foundation shows that the Church matters very much to him as the vehicle by which his message would be spread out into the world. There would be no spreading of the Gospel at all if it were not for the Church. Indeed, it was the Church as an institution (the bishops gathered together) that assembled the Gospels and verified them as the word of God.

I beleive this is probably where we differ in opinions. I see the “church” as the body of believers, not an institution. Jesus wanted us to share His teachings with others and those who were elders in the faith who did and should do the same. But recall the time in which Jesus was teaching, recall what He was addressing even then about the established authorties in His time. The Pharisees and Sadducees, He was addressing the problems that arise from religous system such as these. They so very often become something entirerly different then their original intent. Gudiance is important when our faith is young and growing, but once we have grasped the principles of personal faith our authorty should come from God and His Holy Spirit. Community of faith is important that is the church. We should come to a place in are persinal faith where we should not have to be told what to do in God, we through relationship with Him become to know what to do. If being a part of a denomination or organization is what you need in your walk with God then that is great. Go and be blessed in it. I beleive that God intends for us all to embarce Him. learn from Him and grow and I personally don’t beleive I need someone to tell me how to do this. Doctirnes and rituals give parameters to follow how we choose to operate in these is ultimatly up to us.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Gudiance is important when our faith is young and growing, but once we have grasped the principles of personal faith our authorty should come from God and His Holy Spirit.

It always comes from the Holy Spirit. What you seem to object to is what Protestants have always objected to: the unity of Christendom. When Christ called for us to be one with him as he was one with the Father, he was stating a literal truth. We are not to go off and start our own private interpretation of Scriptures.

So I think one of the reasons Christianity is failing in the United States is that it is so fragmented. We do not speak with one voice against the evils of this age. If we did, the evildoers would fear that voice and respect it.

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me.” - John 17:20-21
“Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one flock, one shepherd.” (John 10:16).

“I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith you were called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long suffering, forbearing one another in love; giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one Faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.” Saint Paul (Ephesians 4:2-6).

 

[embraced]

I believe because we share our union in the Holy Spirit, by believeing in God we are united in spirit. There will always be evil in the world and it can be fought against from many different platforms, but I chosse not to have, as you call them “evildoers” fear me or God, that is not what Jesus or God is about.
With respect, I bow out.
Have a wonderful day in the Lord!

embraced:heaven:

 

[Charlemagne_II]

*but I chosse not to have, as you call them “evildoers” fear me or God, that is not what Jesus or God is about. *

“Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.” (Acts 9:31)

Go in peace. :hug1:

 

[kesa82]

There cannot be any doubt that Christianity ruled the West in the Middle Ages. Does it any longer rule? Why or why not? What are the symptoms of Christianity now at the point of collapsing, or now at the point of a rebirth and expansion?

Admittedly, this is a vast subject that can go in a thousand directions at once. Perhaps we should try to limit the discussion as much as possible to Christianity in the United States?

Certainly it does not rule. Unlimited government and Papal oversight are not compatible.
I draw a direct line from Martin Luther , that tool of secular princes, to Henry VIII, to Jefferson, to Robespierre and Murat, to Lincoln, to Hitler and Stalin, to their ever more sophisticated heirs. I believe in the divine right of kings, which is to say, generally and specifically, I think it was actually a sounder idea to let God, or an accident of birth if you prefer, select our leaders. Not that our leaders should have any considerable measure of control. I tend to wince when the topic of the book of revelation comes up, or at any apocalyptic discussion. But, ok, maybe we are in the end times.
So much of life was not so long ago strictly in the hands of God, or nature if you prefer.
But now, what does man not control ? In what subject does he not think he has a say?
It seems to me common sense would indicate to you that when man is in charge of all things , it must follow that the devil will be in the catbirds seat. ( whether you believe in a literal devil or not )
When I was a 12 year old deist it seemed to me that the United states ( the secular state and concept ) was fundamentally hostile to any religion and that tendency would play out in time. The fact that I am now a Catholic christian has in no way altered that view.
It is my contention that " In God we trust " and such like, always was a mask to cover an evil reality.
Secular humanistic moral relativism ? I think we arrived at that in 1776.
200 years , you know, is actually not a long span of time, though it does seem that we have royally messed everything up in a very brief span of time, "coincidentally " in about a 200 year span of time.

 

[brigid12]

.** We should come to a place in are persinal faith where we should not have to be told what to do in God, we through relationship with Him become to know what to do. **

Yes, it would be nice if humans were able to do this, however there is such a thing as Original Sin. Then, after baptism humans still have concupiscence (look at the number of “Christians” who think it’s ok to kill a baby, because its easier). Christ knew that humans need all the help we can get. He died and rose for our salvation. He instituted Sacraments to help us in our daily struggle to keep our faith. He gave us His mother as our own spiritual mother, to help us. He gave us Scripture (Old and New Testaments) as an ongoing how-to-manual. He gave us as our guardians, spiritual beings who worship Him. He gave to us all the humans who’ve already made it to heaven and know how it’s done (the Saints). And most of all, He gave us (Matt.16:17-19) His Church to follow. It is certainly heavenly and made up of spiritual beings - His angels, His Saints, etc. - however it is also made up of fallible human beings on earth. The most honored by Catholics (and many other Christians) is the fallible human being who is called the Pope, the Servant of the Servant of God, or the successor of Peter. He has the charism, by virtue of his office, of being infallible when, through the Holy Spirit, he teaches on faith or morals.
Since I am not spiritually perfected (yet?) I’m glad I can follow Him through His Church on earth.