Is Church of Antioch Apostolic

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Augustine

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Does the non-Catholic Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch have apostolic succession?

I ask because a permanent deacon in the diocese has regratably “defected” to it (may God have mercy on him :gopray: ). From the onset, it looks like an exaggerated version of the Anglican Church…

:blessyou:
 
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Augustine:
Does the non-Catholic Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch have apostolic succession?

I ask because a permanent deacon in the diocese has regratably “defected” to it (may God have mercy on him :gopray: ). From the onset, it looks like an exaggerated version of the Anglican Church…
Augustine,

The CACA is not Catholic, not Apostolic in the sense that Catholics and Orthodox think of the word, and not of Antioch. It also bears no resemblence to the Anglicans (who would likely be insulted to hear that anyone thinks so). It is of a genre of ecclesial bodies variously referred to as “independent Catholic”, “independent Orthodox” and, perjoratively, as ecclesia vagante.

Irish Melkite, who posts primarily in the Eastern Christianity forum, is somewhat of an expert on these bodies and I am almost certain has previously posted about this Spruit-line Church. He can speak pretty definitively about whether or not they have Apostolic Succession. I’d suggest you PM him to bring this thread to his attention.

Joe
 
The Church of Antioch likes to trot out their various lines of Apostolic Succession, but they are only listing the bishops who have left the Catholic Church and started their own churches. It does NOT mean that the Holy Spirit was obliged to follow them out of the Church. They no longer have authority as they are no longer under the Pope. They have made off with gifts of the Church but they are nonlegitamate and as such their “sacraments” are devoid of grace, and therefore their operations deceive the naive.
 
rafaella said:
The Church of Antioch likes to trot out their various lines of Apostolic Succession, but they are only listing the bishops who have left the Catholic Church and started their own churches. It does NOT mean that the Holy Spirit was obliged to follow them out of the Church. They no longer have authority as they are no longer under the Pope. They have made off with gifts of the Church but they are nonlegitamate and as such their “sacraments” are devoid of grace, and therefore their operations deceive the naive.

Rafaella,

These issues are, unfortunately, not quite as cut and dried as your comments would suggest.

Joe
 
St. Peter founded the Antioch Church and was its first bishop. For a long while it was considered one of the Patriarchal Churches, along with Rome and Alexandria, and later Constantinople. During this time, it was most definately Apostolic. It was still a part of the Church before the Moslems overran it in the 700’s (?). It was later recouped, and then lost again, I believe ultimately to the Eastern Schism.

Notworthy
 
Joe and Notworthy, thank you for your replies. My fault for presuming “The Church of Antioch” was the Spruit independent line that I am personally familiar with - I had forgotten about the (Coptic?) Church of Antioch in Northern Africa. I was referring to the church that was started by rogue bishops (the more the merrier they think), Adrian Spruit being one of them and head for some time.
Brief background on me concerning this: I grew up Catholic but left (lack of Catechism) and went searching for God. A small group of fellow searchers came across Spruit’s church and thought we could have the best of both worlds: Apostolic Succession for the sacraments without having to mind the Church’s numerous strictures. They also offered ordination to women and the clergy could marry. Very tempting. Their mass was very beautiful, traditional and in Latin - we even, after much liturgical research, added many traditional features from early Church times. I even as a woman received “holy orders” up through the deaconate. Serious prayer ensued on my part because I did not want to “receive” the order of priesthood if it would damn my soul, as I was acutely aware that the Roman Catholic Church did not ordain women. After much prayer, the Holy Spirt made it clear to me that the Catholic Church does not ordain women for a reason, and since I was always comparing any proposed actions against the gold standard of the Catholic Church, that’s where I needed to be: it is far better to be a sheep in the pews of the One True Church than any sort of clergy for a church where the Holy Spirit is not. That was 27 years ago. I am eternally grateful to our Blessed Mother for eventually leading me back to the Church. Devotion to the rosary and other Marian dovotions helps one to distinguish truth from deception. For those who are interested in technicalities, several Opus Dei priests have assured me that, being a woman, and thus not the proper vessal, the order of deaconate was not conferred.
As to the rogue bishops, my personal opinion is that their Apostolic power is questionable and their Apostolic authority is void.

rafaella
 
Rafaella, good for you! I agree with the way your tackled your objections. When I had a problem with a teaching of the Church, instead of leaving and following a faith that agrees with my notions, I studied the reasonings behind the Church’s teachings.

Boy, am I glad I did! For I found that ALL of them are well founded and agree with the Scriptures. Incidentally, one of my biggest problems was that women ought to be priests. I’ve since come to realize why this is, and why that is important. I’m so glad the Church has so much information available and is so open to her teachings.

It’s one of the many benefits of being One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic!

God Bless!

Notworthy
 
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NotWorthy:
St. Peter founded the Antioch Church and was its first bishop.
Oh, I’m not talking about that one, bless them. But about the Spruit spin off that others referred to.

:blessyou:
 
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rafaella:
A small group of fellow searchers came across Spruit’s church and thought we could have the best of both worlds: Apostolic Succession for the sacraments without having to mind the Church’s numerous strictures.
It comes to show us that the devil can deceive people in many treacherous ways.

I’m afraid that such deviations were the line, hook and sinker for those turning their backs to the Church.

Kudos to you for being open to the Holy Spirit and listen instead of trying to talk louder than Him.

:blessyou:
 
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NotWorthy:
When I had a problem with a teaching of the Church, instead of leaving and following a faith that agrees with my notions, I studied the reasonings behind the Church’s teachings.
What an example of intellectual honesty!

That’s one beef I’ve always had with trelatives who became JWs: they never studied the teachings of the Church, yet all of a sudden were taking classes on Scriptures when they failed to even attend Sunday Mass. :ehh:

I’ll to keep this in mind when facing dissent.

:blessyou:
 
Augustine,

As I promised you in my PM, I’ll post in some detail on the thread but I’m going to have to do so late tonight, as I’ve been on-line for a while over in the EC forum, longer than I planned, and need to get some sleep.
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rafaella:
My fault for presuming “The Church of Antioch” was the Spruit independent line that I am personally familiar with - I had forgotten about the (Coptic?) Church of Antioch in Northern Africa. I was referring to the church that was started by rogue bishops (the more the merrier they think), Adrian Spruit being one of them and head for some time.
Rafaella,

Actually, the Church of Antioch regarding which Augustine originally posted is a descendent of Spruit’s Church, as Joe noted in describing it as a “Spruit-line” Church. I look forward to your comments after I post, as it’s not often that one encounters someone who was a former member of the “Patriarch’s” flock.

Many years,

Neil
 
Dear Neil and previous kind repliers:

If you have any specific questions I will be happy to answer them, but understand that my experience in the Spruit-line church is probably atypical. The group I was associated with negotiated with Spruit to have one among us consecated bishop, and he in turn, made priests out of most of the men and at least one woman. We really had no direction except from our newly made bishop and that means, in this case, about no direction whatever. It was Animal Farm Goes to Church.
The best thing I can say for the whole experience is that my respect and appreciation for the mass grew by leaps and bounds, as each of us were immersed in the mass every day. Also, I did so much studying of the Church’s Teachings: Catechism, Infallible Doctrines, et cetera, because I had to rid my mind of the weeds of error. Questioning where something came from became part of my psychological mode of inquiry . After I came back to the Church, I was really good at spotting error in the Mass and in homilies.
Anyway, more than you wanted to hear,

rafaella
 
Keep in mind that once one is validly ordained they can no more be un-ordained than a baptized person can be un-baptized. If a validly ordained person breaks from Rome he is still ordained – he may be striped of all rights to use his charisms granted by his office but the power for him to do so is not removed. It is illicit not invalid.

This is why a rouge Bishop that ordains someone without Rome’s permission is instantly ex-communicated. It is a serious matter.

For instance a validly ordained Bishop could ordain Jack Chick and as long as there were no errors in the ordination it would be valid whether or not Rome approved.
 
Dear Shibboleth,

Thank you for your thoughts concerning Apostolic Succession.
There is no question that a bishop validly and licitly consecrated retains the power bestowed on him even if he thereafter were to leave the Church. What I am attempting to address is the disposition of the heart and soul of a " typical " rogue bishop, and the resulting fruits of operating outside the Church.
If one is ordained or consecrated God surely expects more and greater good fruit to come forth from that one. What would be the nature of the works of a rogue bishop? Can anything good come from one who has consciously stepped out of the spiritual protection of Holy Mother Church? It is quite difficult enough for one in the Church to attain any degree of sanctity. No doubt the devil looks upon a rogue bishop as particularly juicey prey. Assuming God will turn good out of this whole genre of schism, the good I see coming from all of this is that we will be able to see that this experiment didn’t work. Show me the schismatic church that didn’t end up corrupt, disintegrated, and steeped in immorality. Sad, but this is what I have encountered: every man, to the one, that was ordained or consecrated from the group in which I was associated is now a broken and miserable man. Most do not even practice their faith, have a number of various types of addictions and have experienced broken marriages and families.
“Valid but illicit” orders just gives one the power to concoct big bad fruit.
Heaven help the poor soul who embarks on such a life.

rafaella
 
Dear Shibboleth,

Thank you for your thoughts concerning Apostolic Succession.
There is no question that a bishop validly and licitly consecrated retains the power bestowed on him even if he thereafter were to leave the Church. What I am attempting to address is the disposition of the heart and soul of a " typical " rogue bishop, and the resulting fruits of operating outside the Church.
If one is ordained or consecrated God surely expects more and greater good fruit to come forth from that one. What would be the nature of the works of a rogue bishop? Can anything good come from one who has consciously stepped out of the spiritual protection of Holy Mother Church? It is quite difficult enough for one in the Church to attain any degree of sanctity. No doubt the devil looks upon a rogue bishop as particularly juicey prey. Assuming God will turn good out of this whole genre of schism, the good I see coming from all of this is that we will be able to see that this experiment didn’t work. Show me the schismatic church that didn’t end up corrupt, disintegrated, and steeped in immorality. Sad, but this is what I have encountered: every man, to the one, that was ordained or consecrated from the group in which I was associated is now a broken and miserable man. Most do not even practice their faith, have a number of various types of addictions and have experienced broken marriages and families.
“Valid but illicit” orders just gives one the power to conjure big bad fruit.
Heaven help the poor soul who embarks on such a life.

rafaella
 
Goodness… Ok let me attempt to tackle this one. I really need to update my profile but I am Greek Orthodox just to be in the open on this issue.

Anyways, according to what I have studied on Catholicism being in union with the Bishop of Rome in no way protects a person or Bishop from becoming immoral. The Bishop of Rome has the ability to make infallible statements on faith and morals but that does not mean that he and his Bishops will abide by such proclamations.

Of course this is what we see when we look back through history. Rome has certainly had its rough periods and dastardly bishops but that is OK. The Church is not a respite for Saints but a hospital for sinners. Certainly the ordained should be of high moral standard as the scriptures attest but if they are not it does not in any way invalidate the legitimacy of the Church.

In regards to good fruit vs. bad fruit – if one has faith or sola fide formata (faith formed by hope and charity) they will inevitably bear good fruit. Our works are the fruit of our faith – God crowns such works but they are the works of God within us that he crowns.

So I don’t think that you can undoubtedly state that an ordained individual of a schismatic group will fail to produce good fruit any more than you can claim that an ordained Bishop of the Catholic Church will not bear bad fruit.

Infused Grace is a funny thing because it is constantly at battle with our concupiscence. We are sanctified but at the same time we are being sanctified and will be sanctified – until the final sanctification we will all sin – works are a good indicator of certain things but we cannot fully judge someone based upon them because they may very well enter the gates of heaven before us because they only had a splinter in comparison to our log.
 
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rafaella:
Dear Neil and previous kind repliers:

If you have any specific questions I will be happy to answer them, but understand that my experience in the Spruit-line church is probably atypical. The group I was associated with negotiated with Spruit to have one among us consecated bishop, and he in turn, made priests out of most of the men and at least one woman. We really had no direction except from our newly made bishop and that means, in this case, about no direction whatever. It was Animal Farm Goes to Church.
The best thing I can say for the whole experience is that my respect and appreciation for the mass grew by leaps and bounds, as each of us were immersed in the mass every day. Also, I did so much studying of the Church’s Teachings: Catechism, Infallible Doctrines, et cetera, because I had to rid my mind of the weeds of error. Questioning where something came from became part of my psychological mode of inquiry . After I came back to the Church, I was really good at spotting error in the Mass and in homilies.
Anyway, more than you wanted to hear,

rafaella
I suspect that your experience in the Spruit “church” was not as atypical as you might think. He “collected” numerous “lines of succession”, many, if not most, of dubious legitimacy – and through his actions, any legitimacy that might have been present was almost certainly lost. He “consecrated” women (including two wives); his “theology” had more in common with theosophy and modern gnosticism than Christianity, etc. In Melton’s Encyclopedia of Religious Organizations, a fairly standard reference work in the field, Spruit’s organization is not listed with any of the branches of Christianity, but rather in the section dealing with occult, or occult-leaning bodies.

I’m sure that Neil can fill in more details later.

Blessings,
 
Augustine, Rafaella, and everyone,

Sorry to be so long in getting back to this.

The Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch (CACA), a/k/a The Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch: Malabar Rite, as Joe mentioned, has nothing to do with Antioch or Malabar. In the world of those who study the “independent Catholic” and “independent Orthodox” Churches, this is one of those frequently described as a “Spruit-line church”.

Richard Gundrey, its current “Archbishop”, was a former Episcopalian (perhaps where Augustine came up with the notion that they had some connection to the Anglicans) who became involved with a semi-obscure sect called the Religious Science Church. While there, he encountered CACA. The following is from his bio and gives you a taste of where he went from there:
in 1985 Richard met a man by the name of Dean Berenz in Santa Fe who was a priest in Herman Adrian Spruit’s Church of Antioch. Richard asked Fr. Dean “What are you doing now?” Dean said “I was just ordained in a Metaphysical Catholic Church.” Those were the buzz words that Richard needed to hear. A blending of metaphysical concepts with Sacred ritual which was the part of the Episcopal church that Richard loved the most.
and,
The church does not espouse any dogmatic teachings but allows freedom of interpretation and expression. This seemed to be the right place for Richard.
Having set that stage, he proceeded to bring Spruit’s theology and Church to Santa Fe, a particularly fruitful area for the “independent movement”. He claims (and probably has the best of several claims) to be the legitimate ecclesial successor to the late Herman Spruit. Gundrey has forged a remarkably successful marriage ministry through the happenstance that the Church’s Cathedral is a rather beautiful setting, a former Catholic chapel and historical site, very popular for weddings.

(continued)
 
Spruit himself traced his claim of apostolic succession through a variety of lines, always pronouncing that his principal line was that which came down through the hands of Gerard Gul, a prominent Old Catholic (Utrecht) bishop, and Arnold Harris Matthew, Old Catholic bishop for Great Britain, whose name can be found in the episcopal lineages of a multitude of “independent hierarchs”. Additionally, Spruit (among others) claimed to be the legitimate successor to a supposed American-based Greek-Catholic patriarchate said to have been willed to him by Antoine (Joseph) Aneed, a renegade Melkite priest, who put himself forth as having episcopal orders, although he held, at best, an honorific dignity.
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Rafaella:
The Church of Antioch likes to trot out their various lines of Apostolic Succession, but they are only listing the bishops who have left the Catholic Church and started their own churches. It does NOT mean that the Holy Spirit was obliged to follow them out of the Church. They no longer have authority as they are no longer under the Pope. They have made off with gifts of the Church but they are nonlegitamate and as such their “sacraments” are devoid of grace, and therefore their operations deceive the naive.
Joe alluded to the fact that the situation is not quite cut and dried and he is correct in that regard. To explain this, I’m going to describe the Catholic and the Orthodox theories as to validity of Holy Orders and, consequently, Apostolic Succession. The differences between the two are the reasons why you will most often see claims of apostolic succession by these “independent” hierarchs relying most heavily on their “Catholic” lines, rather than their “Orthodox” lines - even in instances where they are purporting to be “Orthodox” in theology or praxis.

The theological praxis of Catholics and Orthodox as to the validity of orders and the dependent issue of the validity of sacraments differs significantly. One can discuss, debate, and disagree over which is the more rational stance, but it won’t change the fact that what is, is.

There are basically two theories of apostolic succession and, in most instances, the application of the theory held by a given Church effectively determines the validity accorded to claimed presbyteral and episcopal orders and, ipso facto, the validity of sacraments administered by those claiming to possess valid orders, whether presbyteral and/or episcopal (putting aside - for the moment - issues as to form and intent, since if there is no validity to the orders of the sacrament’s minister, other considerations are of no consequence to either Church).

If the orders claimed to be possessed are themselves invalid, the sacraments derived from him who claims to possess orders will, in turn, be invalid if the sacrament is one which requires administration by an ordained minister - essentially any except baptism in extremis in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches and marriage in the Latin Church, where the parties are the ministers and the priest witnesses.

The Augustinian theory effectively holds that valid episcopal ordination confers an indelible character that is not affected by any schismatic or heretical act or excommunication taken in response thereto or for any other reason. Accordingly, a validly ordained priest once validly ordained to the episcopate retains his capacity to exercise that order, though he may have been deprived juridically of the office or jurisdiction by which he performed episcopal acts. The latter considerations affect only the licitness of his acts.

The Cyprianic theory effectively holds that a valid episcopal ordination is affected by schismatic or heretical acts and by excommunication taken in response thereto or for any other reason. Accordingly, a validly ordained priest once validly ordained to the episcopate retains his capacity to exercise that order only so long as he continues in communion with the jurisdiction under the authority of which he was ordained to the episcopate (or such other jurisdiction into which he may have subsequently been accepted) and is exercising the office or jurisdiction by which he has the right to perform those acts. There is no distinction made as to licitness.

The Catholic Church adheres to the Augustinian theory; the Orthodox Churches to the Cyprianic theory, (although the latter have exercised oekonomia in its application to instances in which schismatic bodies have returned to communion).

(continued)
 
Frankly, the Augustinian theory has been or certainly has become a thorn in the side of the Catholic Church. It effectively assures that all manner of independent hierarchs, both those who pursue their perceived vocation with spiritual and intellectual honesty and those who are episcopi vagante in the most perjorative connotation accorded to the phrase, can sleep at night with at least a modicum of assurance that they possess valid episcopal orders, unless form or intent are at issue. The time-honored practice in the so-called “independent” Catholic and Orthodox movements of garnering multiple episcopal consecrations or, subsequently, being re-consecrated sub conditione is effectively a means of leveraging the Augustinian theory.

Most such hierarchs operate on the premise that “more is better” or “there has to be at least one good one here somewhere”. With most having an episcopal genealogy that traces back through an average of 30 ancestral lines of succession, from a combination of dissident Latin Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox hierarchs, they can feel reasonably secure. Those lines which cannot be proven valid because there is serious doubt as to the validity of one actor (e.g., the so-called Melkite-Aneed Line) can and do feel comfortably buffered by such as the Old Catholic Lines, the Duarte Line, and even the Thuc Line, if they believe that Archbishop Thuc was possessed of sound faculties.

People sometimes point to subsequent acts by bishops of these “Churches” which break faith with Catholic doctrine and erroneously perceive these as breaking the line of apostolic succession. For instance, no bishop, regardless of the validity of his episcopal orders, can validly ordain a woman. But, that he did so would not invalidate his subsequent ordination of a man, with proper intent and according to proper form. So, it is possible to go rather far afield theologically yet still retain apostolic succession.

None of this is to say that all such entities have valid orders or sacraments; as an example, pertinent to this discussion in fact, the Liberal Catholic Church is certainly suspect, but an inordinate amount of effort has to be put into tracing and verifying or rejecting such when presbyters or hierarchs of these Churches are received into communion by Rome.

The Orthodox Churches, relying on the canonically legal status of the hierarch conferring orders (his status in communion with a recognized jurisdiction to which the Church accords canonical status), have a much simpler task before them in assessing validity and, since they do not make the distinction of licitness, the end result is clear-cut.

The potentially most ironic consideration here is that, applying the Augustinian theory, the Catholic Church would in some instances likely accept the validity of presbyteral and episcopal orders, and, consequently, sacraments, of “independent Orthodox” (and by that I do not mean those essentially mainstream Orthodox Churches which are typically termed “non-canonical” or “of iregular status”, but those of the so-called “independent movement”) whom the Orthodox themselves would, rightfully, never deem to be of their Communion, under even the most liberal of interpretations.

What does all this mean for Spruit’s lines of apostolic succession? He probably garnered at least one valid line, somewhere. Did he transmit it further? Difficult to know with certainty but, over time, his intent certainly became suspect, which would work against valid transmission, regardless of form or his own validity of orders.

(continued)
 
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