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OrdinaryMelkite
Guest
Indeed. :clapping::clapping:I despise these bumper stickers and think the people who put them on their cars are like spineless jellyfish - PICK SOMETHING and commit to it!!
“coexist” what a weak word.
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The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
Well, truth doesn’t have its source in what you believe or how you feel. You seem to be making the mistake that being soft-hearted necessarily requires that you must have a soft head.Interesting comments and points of view.
Speaking solely for myself, I believe coexist is neither relativist nor weak.
If you believe that “coexist” is not relativist you have to explain how? How do you reconcile the contradictory claims represented by the various religions depicted in the symbols?
But a Muslim may think that you deserve death for not believing the message of the Prophet. Or if you were a Muslim and then became a Christian even more so.
No Christian worth the name should or ought to condemn anyone, but that doesn’t mean that I can’t tell you that your ideas about God are wrong. I in fact have an obligation to do so.
This explaination is the very definition of relativism.
Jesus would disagree with you since He said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.” That is directly contradictory not only to every eastern philosophy but also to Islam and Judaism.
You would be offended, and not just merely indifferent, if someone you loved told you lies mixed with truth. Because if they loved you, they shouldn’t lie to you, even if they knew they were lying or not?
Every faith makes claims on truth. And as a human being you have an obligation to find out which is the true one and which ones are not.
To say that you believe that “none has all the answers or possesses the ultimate truth” is just another way of saying, “Need I really bother with trying to figure it out? Why not just get on with being ‘good’?” IOW you’re not advocating “coexistence” or even “tolerance” but just intellectual laziness. Forgive my blunt-ness but the argument is just intellectually dishonest.
The only weakness she seem to have demonstrated was her inability to articulate her feelings. It had nothing to do with any notion that your “beliefs” are correct.
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agnes_therese
Guest
Saying that we should be able to live in peace with people who don’t share our beliefs is “a direct onslaught against Catholics?”
That’s a stretch, to say the least.
That’s a stretch, to say the least.
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JRKH
Guest
I believe that there may be a disconnect among us on what the term “co-exist” means. The bolded section above, along with other, similar, comments made here, seem to point to this.
According to the website Dictionary.com, the term coexist means
1.to exist together or at the same time.
2.to exist separately or independently but peaceably, often while remaining rivals or adversaries: Although their ideologies differ greatly, the two great powers must coexist.
SO - - - Coexist does not mean that we need to accept everything else as being “equal”. Coexist is not a synonym for relativism.
The Western Democracies “Co-existed” with the Marxist USSR even though leaders of BOTH systems considered the other to be worthy of annihilation. Their “co-existence” did not mean that they did not try, by various means to build up their own system at the expense of the other.
Likewise for Faith systems. I find nothing in the Gospels, the Epistles, or the ECF’s that indicate that we should force others into Christianity. Neither do I see anything in them that says we should accept other faiths as equal to ours. Thus we are left with “coexistence” while at the same time we seek to Live out our faith and to evangelize in Love.
So - rather than asking seeker to explain how coexist is not relativist, I believe it is up to those making the connection to explain how it is…since there is no connection between the two in the dictionary definition of “coexist”…
Peace
James
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CompSciGuy
Guest
I never knew if those stickers were a part of some organization or what; but the way I understand “coexist” is that all religions ought to be able to coexist in the world without killing/harming/hating each other, not necessarily as far as a statement that all religions are true or equal, which is certainly not true. Perhaps some people take it that far, and that might have been why the lady got upset.
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JRKH
Guest
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JHow
Guest
From what I can tell, there is a Coexist foundation, but they don’t sell the bumper stickers. Their symbol uses only the Star of David, Islamic crescent and a cross.
coexistfoundation.net/
The bumper sticker appears to be an adaptation and has added a peace symbol and what-not.
A guy named “Peacemonger” will sell you one on Amazon:
amazon.com/Peacemonger-Coexist-Bumper-Sticker/dp/B002MAJ5GG
Or here…
peacemonger.org/original-coexist-bumper-sticker-p-27292.html
Peacemonger provides us some of his bio and political views here:
Now where did I leave my Prop. 215 card?
coexistfoundation.net/
The bumper sticker appears to be an adaptation and has added a peace symbol and what-not.
A guy named “Peacemonger” will sell you one on Amazon:
amazon.com/Peacemonger-Coexist-Bumper-Sticker/dp/B002MAJ5GG
Or here…
peacemonger.org/original-coexist-bumper-sticker-p-27292.html
Peacemonger provides us some of his bio and political views here:
Clearly this has nothing to do with politics. It’s all about fostering mutual respect among various religions and (non-religions).
Now where did I leave my Prop. 215 card?
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Tell her to read Matt 13:24-29 and Mark 9:39-41 and Luke 9:49-50.
Jesus makes it abundantly clear that anyone who does a good deed for anybody else is on “our side” and we should let them be. Moreover, “anyone who is not against us is for us.”
If these religions say to do things to each other out of love, then they are for us, not against us.
This woman is welcome to think that anything non-Christian are weeds growing in a field of otherwise pure “Christianity,” but then again Jesus said to LET THEM BE.
She wears the label Christian, but her observed behavior is not what one would expect if she were truly Christlike. But we can’t judge her because she is a work in progress. But will she listen to the above scriptures? Not likely; she has her mind made up on division and exclusion and condemnation, and the words of Jesus aren’t likely to make an immediate impact. At least we plant the seed, though, because then we’ve done our job and after that it’s up to the Holy Spirit to take it from there.
Why don’t people listen and believe and heed the words of their own professed Savior? Well, remember the situation with Lazarus?
Luke 16:31
Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’”
You’re right. They don’t all. I know this for a fact because I don’t, and I’m part of “all.”
Some call that “toxic religion.”
First, I would never take offense at her, any more than I would at the bumper sticker. If it was just a quick “outburst” and then it stopped, I might just let it go. If she wants me to agree with her and she was angry, I might say, “you seem pretty upset. Has something happened in your faith life that is bothering you?” That would take the focus off the sticker and on her. Then we go from there. Of course I don’t know because the Spirit will direct me if and when the time comes to deal with this woman or any of her clones that are littered about from here to there.
Alan
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JRKH
Guest
Great Post Alan…Tell her to read Matt 13:24-29 and Mark 9:39-41 and Luke 9:49-50.
Jesus makes it abundantly clear that anyone who does a good deed for anybody else is on “our side” and we should let them be. Moreover, “anyone who is not against us is for us.”
If these religions say to do things to each other out of love, then they are for us, not against us.
This woman is welcome to think that anything non-Christian are weeds growing in a field of otherwise pure “Christianity,” but then again Jesus said to LET THEM BE.
She wears the label Christian, but her observed behavior is not what one would expect if she were truly Christlike. But we can’t judge her because she is a work in progress. But will she listen to the above scriptures? Not likely; she has her mind made up on division and exclusion and condemnation, and the words of Jesus aren’t likely to make an immediate impact. At least we plant the seed, though, because then we’ve done our job and after that it’s up to the Holy Spirit to take it from there.
Why don’t people listen and believe and heed the words of their own professed Savior? Well, remember the situation with Lazarus?
Luke 16:31
Then Abraham said, ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’”
You’re right. They don’t all. I know this for a fact because I don’t, and I’m part of “all.”
Some call that “toxic religion.”
First, I would never take offense at her, any more than I would at the bumper sticker. If it was just a quick “outburst” and then it stopped, I might just let it go. If she wants me to agree with her and she was angry, I might say, “you seem pretty upset. Has something happened in your faith life that is bothering you?” That would take the focus off the sticker and on her. Then we go from there. Of course I don’t know because the Spirit will direct me if and when the time comes to deal with this woman or any of her clones that are littered about from here to there.
Alan
Peace
James
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CMatt25
Guest
What makes you think, Juliane, that someone who has such a sticker is not committed to something other than relativism? They might in fact have picked one of the faiths depicted. But merely understand we are speaking of faith and simply strive, while on this earth of many faiths, to coexist with others. People who also were created by God. Striving to coexist in peace with other faiths does not necessarily mean it negates their own faith and what they themselves believe is the truth. Peace.I despise these bumper stickers and think the people who put them on their cars are like spineless jellyfish - PICK SOMETHING and commit to it!!
“coexist” what a weak word.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Great points!
Let’s get one more thing on the table.
Spirituality transcends religious identity. There. I said it.
If I’m thirsty and someone gives me to drink, I do not ask what they believe about God; I say “thank you” and accept it. When I’m at a family gathering, I don’t selectively hug only those who are Catholic. A hug from a Protestant or a Muslim speaks the same language and crosses religious boundaries. So does a kind word “I’m sorry for your loss” to one who is grieving.
Alan
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JRKH
Guest
Can anyone say - “Good Samaritan??”
I note that in this conversation no one has made comment on my earlier post where I pointed out that these stickers could be seen as just as much “Anti-Islam” as "anti-Christian since both of these faiths are “evangelistic” in nature…I’m not sure about the others…
So why the assumption that the sticker is “anti-christian”?
Peace
James
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The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
It’s real simple and I have already touched on it. The sticker itself, along with Seeker’s comments about his value opinions, necessarily imply that we must accept all of the faiths depicted in the sticker on equal terms as if there were all equally valid in their claims,
The only way one could possibly do that is to ignore essential teachings in each of those faiths, gloss over the differences between them, and then point to their similarities which are mostly concerned with basic moral instructions. Basic morality-while it is good in itself-when it comes to comparing religions and ultimately what is truth it really is the lowest common denominator. Basic morality-being “good” is not what we were made for. We were made for something much higher and much greater.
Hence the notion that the sticker represents is relativistic.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
From dictionary.com:
Coexist
Here’s how we’d have to rewrite just one of many passages in the Bible that alludes to this Truth:
Luke 9:49-50, as modified by those who are offended by “Coexist” stickers:
Then John said in reply, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow in our company.
Jesus said to him, “Thank you for calling this to my attention. Let’s stop them immediately lest they think we find their beliefs or behavior acceptable.”
How many more examples do we need?
Alan
Coexist
- to exist together or at the same time.
- to exist separately or independently but peaceably, often while remaining rivals or adversaries: Although their ideologies differ greatly, the two great powers must coexist.
Here’s how we’d have to rewrite just one of many passages in the Bible that alludes to this Truth:
Luke 9:49-50, as modified by those who are offended by “Coexist” stickers:
Then John said in reply, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow in our company.
Jesus said to him, “Thank you for calling this to my attention. Let’s stop them immediately lest they think we find their beliefs or behavior acceptable.”
How many more examples do we need?
Alan
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JRKH
Guest
The problem with this is that, if you look at the comment (and challenge) you made to seeker and that I responded to, an individual’s beliefs don’t enter into it. You said:
“If you believe that “coexist” is not relativist you have to explain how? How do you reconcile the contradictory claims represented by the various religions depicted in the symbols?”
My response demonstrated clearly that the term “coexist” has nothing to do with relativism.
The fact is that these faiths DO coexist. They already exist together in a particular point in time. The one thing that is not always present in said coexistence, but is included in the definition provided is the “peaceably” part.
When I see these bumper stickers this is what I see. A request for peace. For peaceful co-existence, not in agreement or in some relativistic “everyone is equal” sort of way, but rather in a manner that demonstrates Love and respect and provides an atmosphere conducive to reasoned debate and discussion.
You and others here may well be right about the politico-cultural outlook of the majority of those who choose to place this sticker on their car.
All I am saying is that the sticker itself asks for nothing that a good Catholic, including our Holy Father in Rome, could not support. It asks for peace among the faiths.
Peace
James
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AbideWithMe
Guest
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seeker57
Guest
Perhaps I should amplify my response.
Regardless of our religious views, we can - and do - coexist. We live on a planet replete with many faith communities.
When we fail to coexist, we end up with things like the Crusades, the Holocaust and the slaughter of witches, or supposed witches, during the Middle Ages.
I belong to a congregation in which people of many faith backgrounds come together. Some in my congregation are self-professed Christians. Others are Deist, Jewish, Sikh, Wiccan, and some are even old-fashioned Unitarians or Universalists.
When we celebrate a Sikh holiday, I enjoy learning about the faith of others and perhaps catching a glimpse of the divine in that faith. But that doesn’t mean I accept the Sikh faith tradition as my own.
I view the bumper sticker with “coexist” on it in much the same light.
I think of it as spreading the hope that we can live in peace with one another, not that we must conform to another’s faith or spirituality.
I do not find that relativist.
Peace,
Seeker
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Nor do I. They (the stickers and what they themselves mean; I have no idea about the political implications) are only relativistic in the sense that if we see anything we don’t think is fully 100% Catholic, we apply the label as a general purpose pejorative term.
Alan
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CatholicFireman
Guest
There are a lot on those stickers around here (N VA/D.C. area…imagine that.
), and yes, they are usually with other stickers geared against Christianity and conservative government. Kudos to you for putting that note on their windshield. I don’t have the nerve to. 
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
I’m curious what you mean by “one could say.”
I don’t have a problem with your leaving a note; I think it’s kind of cool because you told the person responsible rather than just talk to others about it.
But if it’s “one could say” it’s offensive to Christians, it sounds like it was pretty iffy and you chose the side of offense. If if was clear cut, then my apologies but then you’ll have my wonder as to why you wrote it as if it were not.
Alan
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