Is coming near to sin also sin?

[CuriousInIL]

Is allowing yourself to the near occasion of sin a sin?

If so, what is this sin–what is it called and what command does it violate?

I ask because I am under the impression that the near occasion of sin is just that and so is not sin itself.

For an example, let’s talk about an action that is clearly ok by itself–that is, it is not a sin (but for the possibility that it is because it is an occasion of sin.
Assume the following for purposes of discussion:

1. excessive drunkenness is a sin (please just assume this, this post is not a debate on this issue)
2. going to a football game is not normally a sin
3. for a person–lets use me to make it easier–I know that say 10% of the time that I attend a football game that I get excessively drunk
   so–the question is–is it a sin to go to a football game even if I think I will not get drunk and even if in fact I do not drink that time?
   And, if it is, and I go and do NOT get drunk, how do I confess this?

What is this sin–what is it called and what command does it violate?

My question is if the underlying activity–like going to the football game–is NOT sinful, but I know there is a chance–like 10%–of something sinful happening, is it a sin to go to a game when I believe that I will not fall into the 10%, I realize the sin if I am just trying to go for the drink. But, is it sinful to go thinking that I will be ok this time?

 

[Bennie_P]

Is allowing yourself to the near occasion of sin a sin?

If so, what is this sin–what is it called and what command does it violate?

I ask because I am under the impression that the near occasion of sin is just that and so is not sin.

For an example, let’s talk about an action that is clearly ok by itself–that is, it is not a sin (but for the possibility that it is because it is an occasion of sin.
Assume the following for purposes of discussion:

1. excessive drunkenness is a sin (please just assume this, this post is not a debate on this issue)
2. going to a football game is not normally a sin
3. for a person–lets use me to make it easier–I know that say 10% of the time that I attend a football game that I get excessively drunk
   so–the question is–is it a sin to go to a football game even if I think I will not get drunk and even if in fact I do not drink that time?
   And, if it is, and I go and do NOT get drunk, how do I confess this?

What is this sin–what is it called and what command does it violate?

My question is if the underlying activity–like going to the football game–is NOT sinful, but I know there is a chance–like 10%–of something sinful happening, is it a sin to go to a game when I believe that I will not fall into the 10%, I realize the sin if I am just trying to go for the drink. But, is it sinful to go thinking that I will be ok this time?

Going to football games is not sin. Unless you have made football/sports an idol within your life. #1
Drinking in modration is not a sin. Getting drunk is.If you get drunk just confess getting drunk, and if you are getting drunk 10% of the time maybe you need to talk to a doctor about your drinking habits, if you are keeping track on how many times you get drunk, well that may be sign you are concerned about your drinking habits, which could indicate you are problem drinker. But if getting drunk causes you to focus on the cheerleaders more then the game you might be committing a sin of lust. # 6 & possibly #9
If you skipped mass to got to the game. #3
If you made a bet on the game. #10 (Oh, I forget you don’t want to discuss the sin, it is just an example.)

But putting yourself in temptation, which is the question you are really asking, I would say you may be breaking the first commandment - because when you allow yourself to be put into temptation, you are also tempting God and his word.

2119 Tempting God consists in putting his goodness and almighty power to the test by word or deed. Thus Satan tried to induce Jesus to throw himself down from the Temple and, by this gesture, force God to act.49 Jesus opposed Satan with the word of God: "You shall not put the LORD your God to the test."50 The challenge contained in such tempting of God wounds the respect and trust we owe our Creator and Lord. It always harbors doubt about his love, his providence, and his power.51

 

[CuriousInIL]

Just as a clarification, the hypothetical is just that, hypothetical and does not represent a real problem that I have.

 

[Bennie_P]

Just as a clarification, the hypothetical is just that, hypothetical and does not represent a real problem that I have.

I know I was just having fun with it, and my opinion on the actual question is just that - my opinion. Who says discussing morality has to be stuffy? Of course if you don’t get drunk then there is no sin and your resistence to the temptation may become stronger. This could be more of a question of scruples - which can also be a sin covered by the 1st commandment.

 

[Pug]

I think deliberately placing yourself into a serious near occasion of sin can be a sin. For example (and this is hypothetical ), say I know that I almost always purchase adult magazines if I go into a certain store. So, there I am on the sidewalk, contemplating the store. Maybe I think I’ll go get a cup of coffee in there. Probably, I ought not to have even let myself contemplate the store to begin with. But, given the point I am at, I ought not enter the store. I would need some important reason to do so, like I am a doctor and I see someone fall down having a seizure in the store. Fundamentally, there is no sin in going into that store, but for me, there is a problem with the store. I need to stay out of that store. Going in for a reason that does not outweigh the danger is wrong.

In the drinking scenario, there is more than one moment of choice. You go to the game and then you order some alcohol and then you go on to drink too much. The hypothetical you will need to discern where you are at with that. I think it is fair to say the when you are sitting there ordering the alcohol, you are likely really getting into danger. But if what you need to do to stay sober and not wreck your family (I’m assuming a big consequence) is to stay out of football games, then stay out of football games. It is not rationally worth the risk.

Remember, everyday life contains temptations. A person ought not lock themselves into a small box to avoid them all. But at some point, when there is no reason to run the risk, it is a sin to run the risk. It depends on the particular person and what is a temptation for them and how serious it it is and how proximate or remote the temptation is, etc.

 

[CuriousInIL]

The question is, in the hypothetical situation described in the OP, is it a sin to go to a football game believing that you will be ok? The question is on the going or not going issue, so you do not need to even think about whether a drink is had at the game or not. Is going a sin?

 

[iamscifimike]

I’d say no, in the particular hypothetical mentioned here. Even if you were to have a drink but refrained from getting drunk, you’d still be ok. You would be coming closer to jeopardy, but as long as you remain within control that is ok.

If I may expand on my answer to even deviate from the question. Contributing to a sinful tendency would be bad, as far as enabling others ( i.e. you go and don’t drink when others would go and not have the restraint you exhibit ) I think there might be other hypothetical’s where simply attending might be bad but I think those instances would depend on the event. ( party or something )

As far as causing scandal I don’t think attending a football game would be viewed as a drinking event. All the better to go and not to drink I think. It’s good role modeling

 

[Pug]

The question is, in the hypothetical situation described in the OP, is it a sin to go to a football game believing that you will be ok? The question is on the going or not going issue, so you do not need to even think about whether a drink is had at the game or not. Is going a sin?

Your OP makes it sound like the person has judged that he has no risk that day of drinking, and that it was in the past that there was danger. If that is the case, then it is not a near occasion to go to the game.

Let’s assume the risk is 10% that day, though. Then I think it depends on the risk/benefit level analysis. If you are 10% tempted to drink to excess everywhere you go, then the game does not really represent any additional risk. If you are 0% tempted anywhere else and we assume that drinking to excess is grave matter, then we are talking a 10% risk of likely mortal sin. In general, I’d avoid that situation unless I had a suitable reason to run the risk.

It doesn’t matter if you end up drinking at the game or not. The sin was done when you unjustifiably decided to take the risk of mortal sin.

The number 10% makes the question harder. If it were 90%, then the answer is much easier. Even so, with the way my life is, a 10% risk would be a sin. I don’t have many places I can think of that run that high of a risk. I’d confess to deliberately placing myself into the near occasion of sin in the confessional, btw. You might want to talk to your confessor to get more ideas about this topic.

 

[CuriousInIL]

I have tried to discuss this several times here and IRL and keep getting conflicting answers on whether it is a sin or a just a bad idea that is short of sin.

 

[Bennie_P]

I have tried to discuss this several times here and IRL and keep getting conflicting answers on whether it is a sin or a just a bad idea that is short of sin.

Have you asked your priest? or presented the question on the ask an appologist thread? Truly, I don’t think it is sin unless it is qualified by other factors. The intent is to go enjoy a football game, no more, no less.

 

[Pug]

My moral theology text talks about this issue. I will type in here what it says, but it refers to Denzinger (I’ll explain what that is if you don’t know). I found a translation online for Denzinger, but this is the first time that I have, so I don’t know if the translation is all that great or not. My book made reference to DS2161-62/1211-12. The numberings are different depending on if it is the old one or the newer one. Here are the cuts. These are condemned, not supported, btw:

1211 61. He can sometimes be absolved, who remains in a proximate occasion of sinning, which he can and does not wish to omit, but rather directly and professedly seeks or enters into.

1212 62. The proximate occasion for sinning is not to be shunned when some useful and honorable cause for not shunning it occurs.

Here is a typed in portion of The Way of the Lord Jesus Vol. 2: Living a Christian Life by Germain Grisez, page 222-223:

Sometimes the act or omission that is an occasion of sin would otherwise be morally good but in no way obligatory. There is an alternative, also morally good, that could be chosen instead. In such cases, if the act or omission is a proximate [near, not far] occasion of mortal sin, it should be avoided by choosing the good alternative, while failing to avoid it is grave matter, due to the unjustifiable grave risk taken (see DS2161-62/1121-12). For instance, if a salesman has a choice between different jobs, either of which would provide enough income to meet all of his responsibilities and he foresees that in one of the jobs he might well succumb to temptations to defraud customers while he will not experience similar temptations in the other, he should choose the latter job.

He goes on to say that if it is a remote, and not a proximate occasion, then you are in the territory of light matter, not grave matter. Theologians are not in perfect consensus in every possible situation on this topic as to how hard you must work to avoid the near occasion.

 

[CuriousInIL]

Have you asked your priest? or presented the question on the ask an appologist thread? Truly, I don’t think it is sin unless it is qualified by other factors. The intent is to go enjoy a football game, no more, no less.

I have and have not gotten a definitive answer.