Is Communism itself a bad thing?

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Before, I say anything else, I am NOT going to start a Communist empire any time soon. But, I said it wasn’t itself a bad thing to a group of friends and am wondering if that was right or not. If I wasn’t, do I have to go back and tell them that? (It would probably be awkward)
 
Communism is bad. It denies the natural law of ownership of property, and as operated in the world, is atheistic. It denies God’s existence. Not only that, it persecutes those who believe in God. One of the first things the Communists do when taking over a country or region is to kill all the members of the Church’s heirarchy, and destroy the morals of that region as fast as they can. Why? Because an immoral people is always easier to enslave than a moral one.
 
Before, I say anything else, I am NOT going to start a Communist empire any time soon. But, I said it wasn’t itself a bad thing to a group of friends and am wondering if that was right or not. If I wasn’t, do I have to go back and tell them that? (It would probably be awkward)
Some of the ideas of Communism are actually quite good, even wealth distrribution, the top of the food chain looking after the bottem, noone is better off then anyone else etc.

However, it seeks to remove God completely (as Marx believed religion to be the “opiate of the people” and it would cease to be needed/exist in a truly Communist state) which is intrinsically evil, without someone in charge (which in pure communism, there is no leader ala anarchy) a dictator will always fill the power vaccuum (Stalin etc) which usually leads to a totalitarian dictatorship, and extreme forms of poverty, but also a large “middle class” which have quite abit of money, and the dictator and his ilk, who have most of the money.

Communism can not work, people are to greedy, it will always end up as a totalitarian Socialist Dictatorship
 
Any ideology that denies freedom to the individual is gravely immoral.
 
As I understand it, Communism is a militaristic controlled government, and for some odd reason their religion is militaristic atheism (physically destroying other religions).
 
Depends on how you define communism. Some people would define you as one only if you’re a card-carrying member of the Communist Party. Some would call you one if you believe in any kind of public healthcare, as I do.
 
Before, I say anything else, I am NOT going to start a Communist empire any time soon. But, I said it wasn’t itself a bad thing to a group of friends and am wondering if that was right or not. If I wasn’t, do I have to go back and tell them that? (It would probably be awkward)
I’m rather ill so I won’t give the expansive answer I normally would, but let’s look at a few points if you can bear with my scatterbrained condition.

Usually when you’re talking about “Communism” with a capital “C” you’re talking about some species of Marxism. You should have a look at the Communist manifesto, with its implicit threats against monarchy and papacy. Note that among the things that Communists seek to abolish is the family. The goal of the abolition of the family actually runs through much Marxist thought, including Western Academic Marxism and post-modern thought… that the family is an institution which represents archaic values and needs to be abolished for the sake of progress.

Also keep in mind that Marx’s view, which I think will make understandable for you the various actions of Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao and the others, is an essentially Hegelian one. The Hegelian philosophy of history (which essentially becomes imported into Liberal Catholic theology via de Chardin) is that history is a process of evolution, an awakening of a mighty spirit… and it comes fully awake when the historical processes select out the inferior states and produce the most perfect state. This takes place through conflict, especially war. For Hegel, you know who was in the right via a process of retrospection: the guys who were right were the ones who conquered… and the ones who were wrong were the ones who were conquered.

For Hegel there was a spiritual element to all of this (Modern Germans often looked eastward for their spirituality; note that one of the most recognizable 20th Century symbols of German political philosophy is an eastern luck symbol)… Feuerbach the atheist came along and got rid of all the spiritual elements. Marx notes that he and his circle were all “Feuerbachians”… meaning atheist Hegelians. Hence the “Materialism” in Dialectical Materialism.

Marx goes on, in his seminal but oft-overlooked Preface to the Critique of Political Economy, to argue that all ideas are merely posterior rationalizations of existing economic relations. In other words, what we think comes after how we relate economically (Marxism is a pan-economism, which is funny given how bad Marxists are at economics) and therefore, essentially, all “ideology” is false. So philosophy, religion, etc. are all, on the Marxist view, things people make up to explain why they relate to one another economically in this or that way.

Still with me? So among the many things that just go ruled out here is the entire subject of “morality”. Morality just doesn’t exist for Marxists.

Now perhaps that sheds some light on why they behave as they do. That is why Marxists can fight for ‘rights’, while members of the opposition, that they themselves intend to abolish once they win power. Because “integrity” and “consistency” are just more fanciful inventions of the Bourgeoisie (or Monarchists, or whomever) to trick people into acting against their own interests. Marxism is the supremely selfish philosophy where every rational agent is expected to act for its own interests, as brutally and efficiently as possible because there is no reason to ever hold back except for mere Tactics.

Now this would be mere atheistic brutality if not for the other wrinkle: the “Dialectical” in Dialectical Materialism. See, Immanuel Kant attacked traditional moral philosophy by adopting an essentially agnostic position: nobody, on his view, knows about God, Heaven, Hell, or all the rest of it. So man must be the author of his own moral law… he must be morally “autonomous”. To be autonomous is obviously to be an “auto-nomos”, a “self-law”. In other words, man is to usurp the role of God and become a law unto himself.

For Kant we’re still in the realm of the individual. But Hegel comes along and critiques the notion of the individual as a whole unit, basically. Actually, you have these competing interests clashing together, and it is the action of their clashing that reveals a higher and larger category. So you have this individual clashing with that individual, and all this competition and conflict is understood as a society or state. Kant’s focus was too small and particular: the truly autonomous entity is not the individual but the state. The state is what acts in history, not the individual, which is just a cog (total paraphrase/generalization here, but I think it’s right). So now we’ve got the Dialectical in Dialectical Materialism.

So the Marxist acts with brutal efficiency for his unit, which in Marx is not understood as the state (as in Hegel) but the social class. Thus the Proletariat (industrial working class) figures out what is best for itself, and brings that about ruthlessly and crushes all other classes into servitude, and eventually out of existence entirely (“Communism”).

As I hope you can see, Communism is an entirely amoral and essentially violent philosophy and is, itself, a bad thing. Now, you might discuss “communism” with a small “c”, as in a type of economic and social organization wherein all means and produce are shared… there have been various experiments that are not in any way Marxist. I’m not sure that any such community has survived for very long except for monasteries. The apostolic community at Jerusalem seems to have such an organization. To have such an organization in a Christian context seems to be a purely prudential matter. However, Marxism as a philosophy is right out… it’s the antithesis of decency.
 
Being forced to share what we have with others is not fruitful.

When we willingly share with others for the glory of God, it is good.
 
It denies Tradition, Family and Property.

Revolution and Counter-Revolution

This terrible enemy has a name: It is called the Revolution.

Its profound cause is an explosion of pride and sensuality that has inspired, not one system, but, rather, a whole chain of ideological systems. Their wide acceptance gave rise to the three great revolutions in the history of the West: the Pseudo-Reformation, the French Revolution, and Communism.2

Pride leads to hatred of all superiority and, thus, to the affirmation that inequality is an evil in itself at all levels, principally at the metaphysical and religious ones. This is the egalitarian aspect of the Revolution.

Sensuality, per se, tends to sweep aside all barriers. It does not accept restraints and leads to revolt against all authority and law, divine or human, ecclesiastical or civil. This is the liberal aspect of the Revolution.

Both aspects, which in the final analysis have a metaphysical character, seem contradictory on many occasions. But they are reconciled in the Marxist utopia of an anarchic paradise where a highly evolved mankind, “emancipated” from religion, would live in utmost order without political authority in total freedom. This, however, would not give rise to any inequality.

The Pseudo-Reformation was a first revolution. It implanted, in varying degrees, the spirit of doubt, religious liberalism, and ecclesiastical egalitarianism in the different sects it produced.

The French Revolution came next. It was the triumph of egalitarianism in two fields: the religious field in the form of atheism, speciously labeled as secularism; and the political field through the false maxim that all inequality is an injustice, all authority a danger, and freedom the supreme good.

Communism is the transposition of these maxims to the socioeconomic field.

These three revolutions are episodes of one single Revolution, within which socialism, liturgicism, the politique de la main tendue (policy of the extended hand), and the like are only transitional stages or attenuated manifestations.

more…
 
It’s pretty obvious that orthodox communism as envisioned by Karl Marx and as implemented by Lenin, among others, is quite a bad thing indeed. Several here have answered that quite directly.

The more interesting quesion is to what extent are the various watered down variants bad things? And why, precisely?

Because while few today would advocate or espouse old-fashioned communism, socialism retains a strong backing not only among secularists but among many Catholics.

Conversly, is capitalism a good thing? What is the ideal political and economic organization of society and what are tolerable compromises?
 
It’s not the most economically sound system, so it’s economically bad. Modern Communism is based on Marxist-Leninist ideology and while I applaud Marx’s desire to help the middle and lower class, his ideologies are laughable. He believed in the proletariat’s taking over the government so there is no class anymore and then achieve some sort of Utopia where then we can begin to have a democracy. I know, it’s far-fetched belief that will not happen. If you prevent people from being able to be wealthy, you’re going to collapse eventually

And yes, it usually involves state control of property and business
 
Yes, Communism is fatally flawed and condemned by the Catholic Church.
Skeptic92
Some of the ideas of Communism are actually quite good, even wealth distrribution, the top of the food chain looking after the bottem, noone is better off then anyone else etc
False.
Fr James Sadowsky, S.J., explains:
“…wealth is produced and wealth is exchanged. Period. So there are no distributors. If there is no distribution process on the market, how can there be an unjust process of distribution or – for that matter – a just process? Again, if there are no distributors, there can be no unjust distributors. The different holdings that result from the process of production and exchange will depend entirely on the justice of those processes.” (The Christian Response to Poverty, London: The Social Affairs Unit, 1985, 9).

The market economy consists of voluntary property exchanges. There is no mechanism of ‘distribution’ whatsoever.
We distinguish between State intervention and the primary role of government which is to support families in solidarity, and the role of the Church in subsidiarity, in which no higher group should perform services which a lower group can deliver – with an emphasis on local and “neighborly” assistance, through family, neighbors, churches, unions, cooperatives, fraternal societies, or other associations as contributors to the social fabric…

Pius XI declared emphatically in Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, #120: “If Socialism, like all errors, contains some truth (which, moreover, the Supreme Pontiffs have never denied), it is based nevertheless on a theory of human society peculiar to itself and irreconcilable with true Christianity. Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.

And so, Venerable Brethren and Beloved Sons, having surveyed the present economic system, We have found it laboring under the gravest of evils. We have also summoned Communism and Socialism again to judgment and have found all their forms, even the most modified, to wander far from the precepts of the Gospel. (#128).
 
Communism:** a) **a hypothetical stage of socialism, as formulated by Marx, Engels, Lenin, and others, to be characterized by a classless and stateless society and the equal distribution of economic goods, and to be achieved by revolutionary and dictatorial, rather than gradualistic, means
b) the form of government of various, esp. former, socialist states which profess to be working toward this stage by means of state planning and control of the economy, a one-party political structure, and an emphasis on the requirements of the state rather than on individual liberties: cf. SOCIALISM
c) a political movement for establishing a communist system

By Webster’s New World Dictionary, Communism, in and of itself, is a bad thing.

Some group must always be in charge so it is not classless.
Equal distribution of economic goods makes working harder and smarter uselss.
One-party structure kills off any checks and balances.
Emphasizing the State over individuals is a direct attack on Freedom.
Communism is also a Godless society. That’s inherently very bad.

Ideal is one thing. Reality is another. It does not work. Millions innocents have killed by Communists in various countries in less than 100 years.

Will America ever go to Communism? We seem to be moving that direction everytime we cede more power to the Federal Government to provide what we use to proivde for ourselves and for others who are truly needy out of the goodness of our hearts. Deadbeats and sandbaggers should fend for themselves. We owe people a good education if they will have it (30% high school drop out rate in America. Any Answers, parents?) and an opportunity for a job. What more? Work harder and smarter.
 
Bubba Switzler
Because while few today would advocate or espouse old-fashioned communism, socialism retains a strong backing not only among secularists but among many Catholics.
Conversly, is capitalism a good thing? What is the ideal political and economic organization of society and what are tolerable compromises?
As we have seen (post #13) both Communism and Socialism are condemned, and solidarity and subsidiarity are the bedrock of Catholic Social Teaching. The evils of the Welfare State are also exposed by the popes.

“Capitalism” is used as a whipping boy when following Karl Marx and his class prejudices. He invented the use of the word “capitalism” to mean a despised exploitation of “workers”, because he wanted to gain power and control everything, including the “workers”.

The Church supports free enterprise, and these economic laws were discovered and developed by our Catholic Late Scholastics. Economics “is the study of the formal applications that can be deduced from the fact that human beings act purposefully. It does not consider whether these actions are good or bad (an ethical question). Economic science is value free. It analyses cause and effect relationships that, if true, are scientific….only human acts can be judged morally.” (Dr Alejandro Chafuen, Christians For Freedom, Ignatius, 1986, p 33).

In 1931, we were taught: “…lastly, summoning to court the contemporary economic regime and passing judgment on Socialism, to lay bare the root of the existing social confusion and at the same time point the only way to sound restoration: namely, the Christian reform of morals. [Pius XI in *Quadragesimo Anno, 1931, 15].

Pope John Paul II warned:
“By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending.”
(Centesimus Annus, 48, John Paul II, 1991).

Notice what flows from Christ’s Parable of the Talents (Mt 25: 14-30) in which Christ praised the wise use of the fundamental right of economic initiative and prudence, and this is recognised in the Encyclical Letter Sollicitudo Rei Socialis (On Social Concerns), 1987, #42, by Pope John Paul II: “Likewise, in this concern for the poor, one must not overlook that special form of poverty which consists in being deprived of fundamental human rights, in particular the right to religious freedom and also the right to freedom of economic initiative.” [My emphasis].

Now see the affirmation of free enterprise – Pope John Paul II teaches in Centesimus Annus, 1991:
CA 42. ‘Returning now to the initial question: can it perhaps be said that, after the failure of Communism, capitalism is the victorious social system, and that capitalism should be the goal of the countries now making efforts to rebuild their economy and society? Is this the model which ought to be proposed to the countries of the Third World which are searching for the path to true economic and civil progress?
‘The answer is obviously complex. If by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”.
‘CA 43. The Church has no models to present;’ [My emphasis].
 
As for an equal distribution of economic goods -

How about ensuring we do a better job of selecting a spouse (divorce rate 50%?) and ensuring our kids have a normal household to grow up in.
How about ensuring kids get a good high school education (30% drop out rate)?
How about ensuring we ditch the use of drugs to alter our behavior. Think what we could buy with the money we do not spend on drugs. And fewer homeless in the streets.

How about ensuring we teach ourselves that God does, indeed, exist and His Plan for us IS THE PLAN.

Follow God better, and we have no need to debate whether Communism is a good thing.
 
As we have seen (post #13) both Communism and Socialism are condemned, and solidarity and subsidiarity are the bedrock of Catholic Social Teaching. The evils of the Welfare State are also exposed by the popes.
And, yet, the American Conference of Catholic Bishops seems never to have encountered a welfare program that was not deserving of support the most recent example being socialized health care (which they oppoised only insofar as it funded abortion).
 
Is Communism ITSELF a bad thing?

IMHO, no.

What a lot of people on this board are speaking ill of, is, more accurately, the versions of communism espoused by people like Marx, etc. However, that is more in the application.
In theory, communism need not be bad.

In practice, it has, throughout history, almost without fail, been a complete disaster on every level. The human carnage communism has wrought has been essentially without parallel.

Oddly, the one area where a form of communism has worked has been certain religious orders, communities, friaries, where the center has been God, and where those that enter do so voluntarily. Otherwise, on a national level, it always fails.
 
Bubba Switzler
The statements of a Conference of Bishops anywhere, concerning teaching, have no Magisterial authority unless they repeat dogma or doctrine. Individual bishops do, when they affirm dogma or doctrine. Unfortunately, sometimes some bishops are swayed by the loudest voices directed at them and the result may constitute a majority over a particular matter.

Pope John Paul II is very careful to reaffirm the principle of subsidiarity and to ensure that we understand the excesses that should be avoided. We have seen already the warning that “By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending.”
(Centesimus Annus, 48, John Paul II, 1991).

Now at:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html
Centesimus Annus #48:
“In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called “Welfare State”. This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the “Social Assistance State”. Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”

We owe it to ourselves and to society to know and to offer the wisdom of the Church’s teaching. The teaching from the Popes and from Vatican I and Vatican II are readily available on the Internet.

Catholic Social Teaching develops in this way: “….the Church looks at specific social, political and economic questions through the lens of the current state of the social sciences, or in the case of economics, up to the time prior to Centesimus Annus, through the eyes of the German Historical School. So, Pius XI’s *Quadragesimo Anno *recommends a corporate state as a just economic order, but it was dropped like a hot potato from there on.” Starting Over: The Rebuilding of Catholic Social Teaching on Economics, Dr William Luckey].

The Popes have moved from the re-distributist theory to acknowledging that all need to understand how to produce wealth through free enterprise as the West had learned. As Fr James A Schall, S.J., explains: “This success was not primarily an exploitation or an injustice. It consisted in learning new ways of production and distribution that depended on intelligence, enterprise, and work, methods that did not in principle take away anything from anyone. These new methods proceeded from what exists, through the most basic of human resources, human knowledge and skill, to fashion new wealth. This approach was the real key to helping the poor, a key that often seemed to be understood everywhere better than in the Church.” (Does Catholicism Still Exist?, Alba House, 1994, p 177).

Further, Popes have acknowledged this by warning against thinking that they have unique insights into specific matters of economic policy.
“If I were to pronounce on any single matter of a prevailing economic problem, I should be interfering with the freedom of men to work out their own affairs. Certain cases must be solved in the domain of facts, case by case as they occur…[M]en must realise in deeds those things, the principles of which have been placed beyond dispute…[T]hese things one must leave to the solution of time and experience.” [Pope Leo XIII. Quoted in *The Church And The Market, Dr Thomas E. Woods, Lexington Books, 2005, p 4].

Pius XI wrote of “matters of technique for which [the Church] is neither suitably equipped nor endowed by office.” Quadragesimo Anno, 41]….“economics and moral science employs each its own principles in its own sphere.” [QA, 42]. The Pope went on to deny that “the economic and moral orders are so distinct from and alien to each other that the former depends in no way on the latter.” [QA, 42].
 
The statements of a Conference of Bishops anywhere, concerning teaching, have no Magisterial authority unless they repeat dogma or doctrine. Individual bishops do, when they affirm dogma or doctrine. Unfortunately, sometimes some bishops are swayed by the loudest voices directed at them and the result may constitute a majority over a particular matter.
Would it be fair, then, to infer that you are conceding that the American Conference of Catholic Bishops is quite confortable with socialism as it has been advanced to date in America? And that we are now debating the theological correctness of their views?

For my part, I will simply refer to acton.org as a shorthand for my own views on this matter. But I think it’s folly to suggest that this is a settled matter within Catholicism or that the Catholic Church outside America is somehow more respectful of economic freedom than American Catholics who generally vote Democrat.
The Popes have moved from the re-distributist theory to acknowledging that all need to understand how to produce wealth through free enterprise as the West had learned.
This is, of course, encouraging but it is only a start of a tremendous teaching process.
 
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