Is Conquest sinful?

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Nations have been conquering other nations for millenia. Only in the last century has the conquest of land been frowned upon. It makes me wonder whether or not it’s actually evil. Did Jesus ever speak out against it? Is war even an evil thing? Up until modern history war was routine. Not just for defense, but for conquest and imperialism. Before that men were born with the purpose of fighting as soldiers. Christian rulers who are now saints were conquerers who took over other nations. Nobody ever saw a problem with this until modern times.

Explain this to me.
 
I don’t think God wants us to kill people and destroy property for the purpose of getting more stuff. Paul instructed Christians to live quiet lives, work with their hands and do all they can to live peaceably with everyone. If everyone did that what a world we would have. Unfortunately, we don’t live in such a world. This makes me think of Abraham. Lot, living near the city of Sodom, was captured during a war between several kings. Abraham took 300 of his own armed servants, rescued Lot and all the other captives, scattered the enemies of the king of Sodom, and brought back the captured loot. When the king of Sodom offered Abraham the returned goods Abraham refused so no one could say the king of Sodom made him rich. I think this is a model countries should follow when gong to war.
 
When does the use of force become a war? We are normally justified in self-defence and protecting others from unjustified attacks. That principle applies even where thousands of people are concerned but it is subordinate to the principle that we should choose the lesser evil. This is the reason why it is so difficult to decide at what point we should not resort to force and turn the other cheek. Non-violent resistance is the most desirable solution but Jesus did not say we should **never **use force in the face of injustice. His actions in the Temple suggest that we should… Not to fight evil is to be an accessory by default.
 
Google Just War.
You weren’t listening. That has nothing to do with my question. “Just war” was never preached in the last couple thousand years until recently. By today’s standards, conquest is certainly not a just war. That’s my point, that only now is it seen as unjust. Why was it ok, for over a thousand years after Jesus lived, for nations ruled by Christian men to plunder and fight for spoils of victory? You’d be insane to suggest as an American president something like “let’s invade Canada and take it over so that we have more land.” But just a few centuries ago this was routine. Men were born soldiers, nations agreed to kill each other for land, and to the victor went the spoils. Why is this suddenly the most evil idea ever created by mankind? Every war used to be a just war. So what the heck happened? Was there some biblical book that was missing for 1800 years that was just found two centuries ago that explicitly states God’s condemnation of war? Because besides a bunch of social and political changes, I fail to understand why war suddenly became a sin of mankind.
 
You weren’t listening. That has nothing to do with my question. “Just war” was never preached in the last couple thousand years until recently. By today’s standards, conquest is certainly not a just war. That’s my point, that only now is it seen as unjust. Why was it ok, for over a thousand years after Jesus lived, for nations ruled by Christian men to plunder and fight for spoils of victory? You’d be insane to suggest as an American president something like “let’s invade Canada and take it over so that we have more land.” But just a few centuries ago this was routine. Men were born soldiers, nations agreed to kill each other for land, and to the victor went the spoils. Why is this suddenly the most evil idea ever created by mankind? Every war used to be a just war. So what the heck happened? Was there some biblical book that was missing for 1800 years that was just found two centuries ago that explicitly states God’s condemnation of war? Because besides a bunch of social and political changes, I fail to understand why war suddenly became a sin of mankind.
Just war has been preached for centuries. Every war was not a just war. Murder and Stealing have always been condemned by God.

Instead of getting all emotional do your research, start with this:

ethics.sandiego.edu/Books/Texts/Aquinas/JustWar.html

That is taken from the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas written in 1265–1274.
 
Nations have been conquering other nations for millenia. Only in the last century has the conquest of land been frowned upon. It makes me wonder whether or not it’s actually evil. Did Jesus ever speak out against it? Is war even an evil thing? Up until modern history war was routine. Not just for defense, but for conquest and imperialism. Before that men were born with the purpose of fighting as soldiers. Christian rulers who are now saints were conquerers who took over other nations. Nobody ever saw a problem with this until modern times.

Explain this to me.
Well, your reading of history is not entirely true.

Preoccupation with war, and denunciation of war, has been common ever since the beginning of Christianity.
You mention Catholic saints who were conquerors. Can you give us some examples, so we can discuss their individual cases? The general Catholic position has always been one of suspicion towards war, meaning that each and every war must have a good moral justification for being waged.

Someone here mentioned the just war theory, and you said it is a recent preoccupation. That is untrue. Its first formal formulation was with St. Thomas Aquinas (13th century), but even way before him were Christians preoccupied with putting an end to war and denouncing wars made with unjust motives such as greed, territorial expansion, etc.

Furthermore, Christianity humanized warfare. The 20th century completey dehumanized it, but you have to keep in mind that, in centuries past, wars were not the complete carnage we have nowadays. Many battles were over without any casualty; both armies would maneuver in front of each other, one would be clearly superior and the battle would be over. Hey, until World War 1 armies had a marching band in front of them; this must give us some idea of how much war has changed!

That said, the total wars of the 20th century have made us more sensitive to the evil of each and every war, even ordered ones. Yes, power-hungry rulers have always existed, and the evil they caused was not always condemned enough. But no-one doubted that it was an evil.

It was Catholic thinking in particular that underscored the fact that even the king is subject to the eternal law of God, and that he too may be judged by his subjects. No-one denounced more the brutal conquest of America by the Spanish Crown than the Spanish priests, bishops and monks, either in America or back in Spanish universities. It was the scholars at Salamanca who taught, against the entire practice of the empire, that the American natives were entitled to their property and individual rights, even if they refused to convert to the Catholic Faith.

You may affirm truthfully that many Christians failed to live up to Christianity’s standards; but not that Christianity ever condoned their sinful practices.
 
Looting in particular has always been severely condemned. Did you know that the Pope excommunicated the crusaders who took part in the looting of Constantinople?
 
Looting in particular has always been severely condemned. Did you know that the Pope excommunicated the crusaders who took part in the looting of Constantinople?
That excommunication was built around the Crusaders attacking fellow Christians, not looting.

-MontChevalier
 
Nations have been conquering other nations for millenia. Only in the last century has the conquest of land been frowned upon. It makes me wonder whether or not it’s actually evil. Did Jesus ever speak out against it? Is war even an evil thing? Up until modern history war was routine. Not just for defense, but for conquest and imperialism. Before that men were born with the purpose of fighting as soldiers. Christian rulers who are now saints were conquerers who took over other nations. Nobody ever saw a problem with this until modern times.

Explain this to me.
Actually, in the early Church, serving in the Roman Legions was a topic of intense debate, with most luminaries of the time frowning on it. However, according to some sources, Christians formed their own legion under emperor Marcus Aurlieus. (This is around 180)
Still, in the Epistle of James war is viewed as a reflection of the warring members of our bodies that lush to have without restraint. Recall too the words of Christ, “Blessed are the peace makers, for they shall be called the children of God.” Nowhere in the Gospel does he praise those who make war.
 
=CollegeStinks;7824093]Nations have been conquering other nations for millenia. Only in the last century has the conquest of land been frowned upon. It makes me wonder whether or not it’s actually evil. Did Jesus ever speak out against it? Is war even an evil thing? Up until modern history war was routine. Not just for defense, but for conquest and imperialism. Before that men were born with the purpose of fighting as soldiers. Christian rulers who are now saints were conquerers who took over other nations. Nobody ever saw a problem with this until modern times.
Explain this to me.
For GREED, Wealth, Pride it’s SINFUL

For self-defense it’s Not:thumbsup:
 
Hail,

I actually don’t believe conquest is that sinful. If the righteous win, then there can be no evil, right?

-MontChevalier
 
Hail,

I actually don’t believe conquest is that sinful. If the righteous win, then there can be no evil, right?

-MontChevalier
But who decides who is righteous?

The righteous would act righteously, hence what is called just war, if it is not a just war then it is a not a righteous war and those involved are not righteous.
 
But who decides who is righteous?

The righteous would act righteously, hence what is called just war, if it is not a just war then it is a not a righteous war and those involved are not righteous.
God decides, obviously. You can ask any knight that question. 😃

And we know He decides by the way the people in the war behave. Usually, in as honorable a fashion as humanly possible.

-MontChevalier.
 
For GREED, Wealth, Pride it’s SINFUL

For self-defense it’s Not:thumbsup:
This is true, but wars of sef defense can turn into wars of conquest. In Word War II, the Soviet Union was invaded by Germany, but ended up annexing Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, and taking territory from Poland. In addition, Easter European countries"liberated" by the Red Army suffered under puppet Soviet governments. So while the Western Allies fought a war of self defense, the Soviet Union ended up as conquerors and oppressors.
I have a related question, is the individual solldier responsible for participating in an unjust war. Almost all soldiers are unaware of the larger forces involved in starting wars and the behind the scenes political maneuvers of their governments and can be mislead by propaganda. Any thoughts?
 
Obviously this argument can go on and on, pro and con, ad nausium. What cannot be disputed though is the nature of God’s Kingdom as outlined beautifully in Isaiah 11. Here, not only is there no war but nature itself ceases from its predatorial nature. There is no more killing and death for any reason. This represents the new creation that the early Christian community knew it was responsible for helping to usher in. This is what we must keep clearly in mind. Ours is a world in flux and transition. We must not mistake it for the ultimate goal of creation. We and the entire universe will be marvelously transformed in the fullness of time. With this in mind, we must above all else strive to establish patches of peace in this imperfect and self-devouring order. We need this peace in order to reflect on what we are called to be. We need it too to draw others to their own fullness of perfection, or rather invite them to this process which God makes possible and active…
 
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