Is creation worth it?

[Luke_K]

I accept the concept of free will, and that some people freely refuse God and suffer forever, but I don’t really see how my existence and eternal reward are worth the eternal, unimaginable suffering of other people. I realize that my salvation is not contingent on the damnation of others, but would it not be better that nothing be created rather than any being, angel or human, suffer infinitely forever?

I mean, I didn’t have a problem with not existing before I was born, because I wasn’t around to care, of course. Likewise, it wouldn’t bother me if I were never created if that meant no one else would be created that would end up freely choosing eternal torture. And if it were possible for God to create a universe in which everyone freely chose salvation, then it is in no way apparent to me how the God we know could be called ‘good’.

So how is the creation of the saved, along with the creation of the damned (even if the specific people who do damn themselves aren’t predestined), worth it?

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

I highly suggest reading these two books: *Purgatory: Explained by the Lives and Legends of the Saints *and Hell: The Dogma of hell illustrated from facts taken from profane and sacred history. Both are by Fr. F. X. Schouppe.

They illuminate a lot about the dual nature of God, that of Justice and that of Mercy.

You must first realize that God does not want robots. If he did, he’d create immortal robots. Animals do not have freedom of will.

Those who go to hell, go there only because they chose evil over good. We cannot presume who went to hell, because God knows what is in their heart.

Many desire instant gratification rather than that of eternal joy. It is worth it, because I’m not a robot. I can freely choose God, which holds far more merit.

If there wasn’t a purgatory, those who still have to sufficiently expiate their sins would rather precipitate into hell than go straight to heaven, in the shame they feel. Once you die, you will see how you have offended God and feel shame if you have any spot on your soul. Those who are sentenced to hell due to mortal sin would rather be there than feel shame before the face of God.

1037

God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

 

[momor]

… would it not be better that nothing be created rather than any being, angel or human, suffer infinitely forever?

Heavy question. I don’t have the answer. For me, this is one that falls under ‘more will be revealed after death’. God is infinitely wise and once you get to heaven His plan will be crystal clear. In the meantime, TRUST.

 

[bpbasilphx]

There is an essay on line called THE RIVER OF FIRE by Dr. Alexander Kalimiros.

While it’s not the last word in Orthodox eschatology, he considers verses from the Bible and teachings of the Fathers to suggest something worth considering.

Heaven and hell are the identical objective experience: the full force of God’s unmitigated love, with NOTHING to distract us from it, as we have in this life. For those who have acquired it in this life and learned to respond to it, it will be bliss unending. For those who have rejected it all their lives, it will be as unending burning coals of fire.

 

[tonyrey]

I accept the concept of free will, and that some people freely refuse God and suffer forever, but I don’t really see how my existence and eternal reward are worth the eternal, unimaginable suffering of other people. I realize that my salvation is not contingent on the damnation of others, but would it not be better that nothing be created rather than any being, angel or human, suffer infinitely forever?

What do you mean by “better”? It would be unjust if everyone were deprived of the opportunity to exist and the joys and pleasures of life simply because a minority choose to live for themselves and alienate themselves from God.

I mean, I didn’t have a problem with not existing before I was born, because I wasn’t around to care, of course. Likewise, it wouldn’t bother me if I were never created if that meant no one else would be created that would end up freely choosing eternal torture.

No rational person would end up freely choosing eternal torture! Hell must have its compensations if it is to be an intelligible concept. It cannot possibly be a state of undiluted suffering. In this world we see how people make themselves miserable as a result of their pride, selfishness and lust for power. They alienate others because they want everything their own way and are not prepared to share. So those who opt for hell get exactly what they want - absolute freedom - but getting they want does not make them happy. It gives a great deal of pleasure but only love can bring joy and fulfilment. Self-love leads to misery because self-worship is a form of idolatry which
is based on a false sense of values. If we live as if the world revolves around us we are bound to come to grief in every sense of the term!

 

[momor]

What do you mean by “better”? It would be unjust if everyone were deprived of the opportunity to exist and the joys and pleasures of life simply because a minority choose to live for themselves and alienate themselves from God.
No rational person would end up freely choosing eternal torture! Hell must have its compensations if it is to be an intelligible concept. It cannot possibly be a state of undiluted suffering. In this world we see how people make themselves miserable as a result of their pride, selfishness and lust for power. They alienate others because they want everything their own way and are not prepared to share. So those who opt for hell get exactly what they want - absolute freedom - but getting they want does not make them happy. It gives a great deal of pleasure but only love can bring joy and fulfilment. Self-love leads to misery because self-worship is a form of idolatry which
is based on a false sense of values. If we live as if the world revolves around us we are bound to come to grief in every sense of the term!

I really like your first comment. By turning the original question around, it provides a good answer I think.

As to your description of hell, it does not fit with what I believe to be the Catholic view. I don’t think the Catholic view holds that there is any compensation, freedom, or pleasure to be found in hell. But then no one knows for sure.

 

[donsnow]

I accept the concept of free will, and that some people freely refuse God and suffer forever, but I don’t really see how my existence and eternal reward are worth the eternal, unimaginable suffering of other people. I realize that my salvation is not contingent on the damnation of others, but would it not be better that nothing be created rather than any being, angel or human, suffer infinitely forever?

I mean, I didn’t have a problem with not existing before I was born, because I wasn’t around to care, of course. Likewise, it wouldn’t bother me if I were never created if that meant no one else would be created that would end up freely choosing eternal torture. And if it were possible for God to create a universe in which everyone freely chose salvation, then it is in no way apparent to me how the God we know could be called ‘good’.

So how is the creation of the saved, along with the creation of the damned (even if the specific people who do damn themselves aren’t predestined), worth it?

Hi, Luke -

I think Creation’s worth it. Who am I, to judge God?

God loves you,
Don

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Any time you get into the whole ‘non-existence is better than existence as X’ (existence in pain, suffering, poverty, hell, etc.), it’s all speculation.

As somebody pondering the whole concept, you obviously exist. (Duh). You have no conception (no pun intended) of non-existence; all you have is a limited, finite, fallible opinion that because you personally don’t want to suffer any and all of the possibilities of pain, suffering, hell, that you’d rather ‘not be alive at all.’

It’s really a very narcissistic, nihilistic point of view.

And rather surprisingly, it’s the ‘privileged ones’ who seem to embrace it most. They’re full of sympathy for ‘the poor’ and the ‘frail elderly’ who should be ‘put out of their misery’ because the ‘quality of life’ is so bad.

Whereas the vast majority of the poor would rather be alive and (not being entitlement kings and queens with inflated egos and demands) are usually grateful for the small, the simple, and find God’s grace even in suffering.

Same with the ‘frail elderly’ who, again, are not so cocooned by wealth and expectations. I’ve seen people in exactly the same circumstances, exactly the same health problems, the same ‘pain scores’ according to the measurement tools, the same services available, the same education, culture, etc. etc. one will have the ‘entitlement mentality’ born of expecting a high ‘quality of life’, and the other will have the experiences of relative ‘poverty.’

It’s the ‘richer’ person who usually is the one begging for more ‘relief’ and telling the doctor that he wants to ‘choose to die’. . .because he (or she) simply cannot face not having the kind of quality of life he wants. . . not that he NEEDS, or that he can endure. . .but what he wants and thinks himself entitled to, and is willing to die if he can’t have it.

While the poorer person is more willing and able to accept suffering, to be grateful simply for the fact that he is alive for another day. . .who is actively involved even as he is suffering in trying to care for others, thinking of others, who doesn’t have to have everything just as he wants.

When Jesus was speaking 2000 years ago of how hard it is for the rich man to enter heaven, we see that today it is even harder for that rich man to have the humility to accept God’s choices. The rich man wants everything on his own terms, including the ‘right’ to choose his own comfortable death rather than ‘suffer’.

 

[tonyrey]

I really like your first comment. By turning the original question around, it provides a good answer I think.

Thank you.

As to your description of hell, it does not fit with what I believe to be the Catholic view. I don’t think the Catholic view holds that there is any compensation, freedom, or pleasure to be found in hell. But then no one knows for sure.

St. Augustine wrote:
“It is my opinion that the nature of hell-fire and the location of hell are known to no man unless the Holy Ghost made it known to him by a special revelation” - The City of God

 

[Oreoracle]

What do you mean by “better”? It would be unjust if everyone were deprived of the opportunity to exist and the joys and pleasures of life simply because a minority choose to live for themselves and alienate themselves from God.

This doesn’t make sense. It’s not possible to deprive a person of anything prior to their own existence. How could any interaction with a nonexistent thing be possible? Would a man be able to feed his baby before it is conceived in his wife? No. Could a man do wrong to his child before it exists? No. Could any person be wronged in any way whatsoever before they exist? No. So how could nonexistent people be wronged using Luke’s idea?

 

[fhansen]

I accept the concept of free will, and that some people freely refuse God and suffer forever, but I don’t really see how my existence and eternal reward are worth the eternal, unimaginable suffering of other people. I realize that my salvation is not contingent on the damnation of others, but would it not be better that nothing be created rather than any being, angel or human, suffer infinitely forever?

I mean, I didn’t have a problem with not existing before I was born, because I wasn’t around to care, of course. Likewise, it wouldn’t bother me if I were never created if that meant no one else would be created that would end up freely choosing eternal torture. And if it were possible for God to create a universe in which everyone freely chose salvation, then it is in no way apparent to me how the God we know could be called ‘good’.

So how is the creation of the saved, along with the creation of the damned (even if the specific people who do damn themselves aren’t predestined), worth it?

You’d have to pose the question to those in hell. Was their creation worth it, i.e. do they still desire to exist-even though their choice means rejection of and separation from God and all that entails for them?

 

[tonyrey]

It would be unjust if everyone

You cannot deprive a person of anything prior to their own existence but an opportunity is an opportunity regardless of whether a person exists. An opportunity is simply “a favourable combination of circumstances”. Why favourable? Because life is immensely valuable and is itself a source of opportunties.

If you wish me to be absolutely precise: it would have been unjust if everyone in this world had been deprived of the opportunity to exist and of the joys and pleasures of life simply because our parents had chosen to live just for themselves.

If we take your argument to its logical conclusion God should not have created anyone! Nor is it wrong for everyone to refuse to share the gift of life with others. It would not matter to you if the human race becomes extinct. In other words you advocate a policy of total selfishness regarding procreation!

Presumably you do not regret having been born and having all the benefits of existence but you don’t care whether those benefits are restricted to you. In effect you and those who think like you become the ultimate arbiters of who should exist. This is typical of the mentality that life is ultimately valueless and purposeless and that we invent values purposes for ourselves. Even if you consider your life to be worthless you are not entitled to impose that view on others. Even if some people are not prepared to make the sacrifices involved in bringing up a child most childless couples would welcome the opportunity to care for unwanted children.

Not only is it a question of selfishness but also of waste. If we have the amazing power to reproduce and share the gift of life with others it is unreasonable not to unless we are pathologically incapable of loving our children or economically incapable of bringing them up properly. It also amounts to ingratitude. You have received a valuable gift but you are not prepared to show your appreciation of it by sharing it with others. Worst of all, it reveals that self-love is your prime consideration rather than a love for others which encompasses future generations. They may not yet exist but that does not mean this generation is the only one that matters… But perhaps you share Schopenhauer’s view that it would have been better if life had never existed on this planet…

 

[Luke_K]

Thanks to all who replied.

The crux of my question amounts to “Was it better to create or not create?” and clearly it was since God did so.

I think we can understand the question in the context of our own ability to bring a child into the world. God has given us the privilege to be co-creators of human beings, so my question applies to us just as well as to God. Is the act of man and woman joining in one flesh to produce a new human being worth it? The child may choose to do evil regardless of how well his parents raise him, and thus he may forfeit his salvation and suffer forever. But that of course is his own will and desire, and I think that the mere opportunity to behold the Beatific Vision, as well as God’s ability to create goodness out of evil, makes the creation of that person worth it.

 

[tonyrey]

Thanks to all who replied.

The crux of my question amounts to “Was it better to create or not create?” and clearly it was since God did so.

I think we can understand the question in the context of our own ability to bring a child into the world. God has given us the privilege to be co-creators of human beings, so my question applies to us just as well as to God. Is the act of man and woman joining in one flesh to produce a new human being worth it? The child may choose to do evil regardless of how well his parents raise him, and thus he may forfeit his salvation and suffer forever. But that of course is his own will and desire, and I think that the mere opportunity to behold the Beatific Vision, as well as God’s ability to create goodness out of evil, makes the creation of that person worth it.

I should have mentioned that your question was motivated by compassion for the damned but compassion is sometimes misguided. If it is for a serial killer, for example, who is not mentally unbalanced, we should feel more compassion for the victims and relatives because they suffer as the result of his voluntary decisions which reveal a lack of compassion. It is only right, just and reasonable that a criminal capable of such evil should be prevented from living in society where he can inflict more suffering on others.

Hell is a self-imposed prison where evil reigns supreme! It is not an arbitrary punishment inflicted by God but the inevitable result of pride, selfishness and indifference to the suffering of others - which isolates and alienates a person from those who love God and His children. The ultimate absurdity is to suppose that the blessed and the damned co-exist in peace and harmony!

The alternative to hell is extinction, which may seem a more merciful solution. A neat and tidy solution! But it overlooks the fact that God is a Creator not a Destroyer. Just as our children are flesh of our flesh so we are persons created in the image of Our Father - with Whom we share the power of self-determination and the capacity for love. Would we destroy our children if they had committed horrific crimes? Or would we allow them to suffer where they cannot harm anyone in the hope that they would ultimately feel sorry and try to make amends for the suffering they have caused? Our hopes may be in vain but at least we have not degraded ourselves to their level by inflicting an irrevocable punishment.

To kill a person is in fact not an irrevocable act but to destroy a person utterly in the next would be the supreme act of destruction - comparable to the execution of Jesus, which was a futile attempt to dispose forever of a supposed malefactor. There is a vast difference, of course, between Jesus and a serial killer who is at the other end of the moral spectrum. Yet the principle of elimination is the same and diametrically opposed to the infinite Love reflected in our love for our children. The anguish of mothers on this forum at the very thought of being separated from their children in the next life demonstrates the nature of divine love. They realise the necessity of being separated from those who choose evil but no! - not for all eternity!

Our free will is a sharing in the very power of God and is the source of all the diabolical cruelty in the world. We cannot grasp the full horror of the conflict between good and evil. We should not try to do so because human nature is not designed to take on such a burden. That way lies insanity…

What we do know for certain is that the infinite wisdom of the Creator of heaven and earth is our ultimate guide to the meaning and purpose of life. The one fact which gives us the peace and joy which surpass all human doubts and fears is the sublime love revealed by Jesus on the Cross. Can we believe anyone can defy God for all eternity? Perhaps - given that we are godlike and share in His power. Can we believe anyone is beyond the power of redemption by His Precious Blood? No! Hope springs eternal and it is not for us to determine who, if anyone, is in hell…

 

[AlbertBall]

This has always been one of my issues with the god hypothesis.

Now this only applies to those that believe in hell in the traditional fire and brimstone version, and i am very aware there are many that do not. To those that do, i just don’t see how one can reconcile the word love, with infinite torture. Any creature that would condemn good people to infinite torture cannot be described as loving in any sense of the word.

 

[Luke_K]

This has always been one of my issues with the god hypothesis.

Now this only applies to those that believe in hell in the traditional fire and brimstone version, and i am very aware there are many that do not. To those that do, i just don’t see how one can reconcile the word love, with infinite torture. Any creature that would condemn good people to infinite torture cannot be described as loving in any sense of the word.

Well, hell is eternal torture, and this is something that all Catholics believe (I mean it’s in the Catechism). There may not be literal fire and brimstone, but the sufferings are akin to that. Why does this make God unloving? The punishment is self-inflicted. God has given us the free will to love him, which is what our sole happiness consists of, so we also have the free will not to love him.

From C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain:

If the happiness of a creature lies in self-surrender, no one can make that surrender but himself (though many can help him to make it) and he may refuse. I would pay any price to be able to say truthfully, ‘All will be saved.’ But my reason retorts ‘Without their will, or with it?’ If I say ‘Without their will’ I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme voluntary act of self-surrender be involuntary? If I say ‘With their will,’ my reason replies ‘How if they will not give in?’

From Traherne, Centuries of Meditation, II, 30:

Love can forbear, and Love can forgive…but Love can never be reconciled to an unlovely object…He can never therefore be reconciled to your sin, because sin itself is incapable of being altered; but He may be reconciled to your person, because that may be restored.

Jesus explained condemnation:

“And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life…” -John 12: 47-50

In other words, we are condemned by our own choice to reject Jesus’ words, which are by their very nature eternal life.

 

[MikiBee]

I often think about it being better to not have been born than to have even the slightest risk of going to hell. Sometimes I worry… I fall SO short SO often, even though I try very hard to be a really good person, that I will ultimately end up in hell because I’m constantly learning much of what I do is sinful. The more I learn and study my faith, the less secure I feel about making it to heaven. Yes, I go to confession and I confess all that I know of— but then I find myself learning that even things I didn’t know were sins, are sins. I never feel worthy of God. I have always thought I was a “good” person, but looking back, I see most of what I ever did was selfish, and I find myself questioning my motivations.

For example, I was handed an extra $20 at the store, and I saw the mistake right away, but I didn’t say anything. All the way to my car, I just KNEW I had to go back and give it to the cashier and tell her about the mistake. But I’m not sure my motivation was pure-- I was afraid of sinning and my conscience got to me, so I returned it. You might say that is a good thing, but I feel like I gave it back out of fear of sinning, rather than out of love for my neighbor. It’s a shame I even CONSIDERED keeping it.

I try and try and try, but I don’t know how to change. Sometimes (okay, many times) I get so caught up with whatever I’m doing… like being on the computer, that I completely disregard my kids and husband. That is precious time I wasted with them… and selfishly I feel bad and ashamed because of the time I lost with them. My list could go on and on.

I guess my point is… the more I learn about God, the less worthy I feel, and am terrified I will go to hell-- so of course, selfishly I wish I had never existed. Sometimes I think I even get angry with God that He made me, but then I trust that God had a plan for me otherwise He wouldn’t have.

 

[fhansen]

I often think about it being better to not have been born than to have even the slightest risk of going to hell. Sometimes I worry… I fall SO short SO often, even though I try very hard to be a really good person, that I will ultimately end up in hell because I’m constantly learning much of what I do is sinful. The more I learn and study my faith, the less secure I feel about making it to heaven. Yes, I go to confession and I confess all that I know of— but then I find myself learning that even things I didn’t know were sins, are sins. I never feel worthy of God. I have always thought I was a “good” person, but looking back, I see most of what I ever did was selfish, and I find myself questioning my motivations.

For example, I was handed an extra $20 at the store, and I saw the mistake right away, but I didn’t say anything. All the way to my car, I just KNEW I had to go back and give it to the cashier and tell her about the mistake. But I’m not sure my motivation was pure-- I was afraid of sinning and my conscience got to me, so I returned it. You might say that is a good thing, but I feel like I gave it back out of fear of sinning, rather than out of love for my neighbor. It’s a shame I even CONSIDERED keeping it.

I try and try and try, but I don’t know how to change. Sometimes (okay, many times) I get so caught up with whatever I’m doing… like being on the computer, that I completely disregard my kids and husband. That is precious time I wasted with them… and selfishly I feel bad and ashamed because of the time I lost with them. My list could go on and on.

I guess my point is… the more I learn about God, the less worthy I feel, and am terrified I will go to hell-- so of course, selfishly I wish I had never existed. Sometimes I think I even get angry with God that He made me, but then I trust that God had a plan for me otherwise He wouldn’t have.

It *is *a struggle. But many people would’ve never considered *returning *the bill.

 

[Luke_K]

I often think about it being better to not have been born than to have even the slightest risk of going to hell. Sometimes I worry… I fall SO short SO often, even though I try very hard to be a really good person, that I will ultimately end up in hell because I’m constantly learning much of what I do is sinful. The more I learn and study my faith, the less secure I feel about making it to heaven. Yes, I go to confession and I confess all that I know of— but then I find myself learning that even things I didn’t know were sins, are sins. I never feel worthy of God. I have always thought I was a “good” person, but looking back, I see most of what I ever did was selfish, and I find myself questioning my motivations.

For example, I was handed an extra $20 at the store, and I saw the mistake right away, but I didn’t say anything. All the way to my car, I just KNEW I had to go back and give it to the cashier and tell her about the mistake. But I’m not sure my motivation was pure-- I was afraid of sinning and my conscience got to me, so I returned it. You might say that is a good thing, but I feel like I gave it back out of fear of sinning, rather than out of love for my neighbor. It’s a shame I even CONSIDERED keeping it.

I try and try and try, but I don’t know how to change. Sometimes (okay, many times) I get so caught up with whatever I’m doing… like being on the computer, that I completely disregard my kids and husband. That is precious time I wasted with them… and selfishly I feel bad and ashamed because of the time I lost with them. My list could go on and on.

I guess my point is… the more I learn about God, the less worthy I feel, and am terrified I will go to hell-- so of course, selfishly I wish I had never existed. Sometimes I think I even get angry with God that He made me, but then I trust that God had a plan for me otherwise He wouldn’t have.

Pardon me if you’ve already considered this, but it sounds like you’re being scrupulous: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21586

The mere will to love pleases God too. Have you read up on St. Faustina, her diary, and the Divine Mercy? She devoted her life to emphasizing Jesus’ inexpressible mercy in confronting our sins.

 

[MikiBee]

Thank you, Luke. Wow, I didn’t know it had a name! I have heard of “scruples” before, but didn’t know the definition. I think I may have that to a lesser degree than some of the websites have explained it… and it would make sense as it came on about 2 years ago when I had a “nervous breakdown.” During that breakdown is when I became closer to God— thinking perhaps I was being punished for leaving the Catholic church. I am still not completely rid of the anxiety and depression from that breakdown, so this could be part of that, I suppose.

I have begged and pleaded for God to help me through this and that one day I will be rid of it forever, and although I am SO much better, I still have a way to go. Hopefully I will cut myself some slack and be able to relax in my trust in God.

Thank you for bringing it up. I think I will go and read up on St. Faustina.