Is cruelty to animals a sin?

[holy_moly]

First off, the original post is wrong. PETA never even made a move to talk about Obama killing the fly until the media asked them in order to make news. blog.peta.org/archives/tags/president_obama/

Second, the view that “cruelty” is the causing of unnecessary suffering is one I would dispute. First off, what constitutes “unnecessary”? Most people seem to hold the view that factory farms fall under the category of “cruelty”… and yet the owners of these farms would argue that they are necessary because they are cheap. Is cheap a justification for cruelty? Most of us would say no.
Is it the slaughter that is cruel, or the living conditions leading up to the slaughter? Most ranches I’ve seen, the cows live like queens, except for when a wolf or mountain lion kills a few & often just for the fun of killing, whether it be sheep or beef, also wild game. Surely oone is going to pull the sin card & make a wolf go to confession…could have quite a fight on your hands…/

COLOR]:slapfight:
But then, why is a meat craving justification for animal slaughter? You might say, “because God gives us permission,” but in the OT, God gives permission to do many things that today would be absolutely unforgivable. He orders the wombs of pregnant women ripped open, orders the genocide of several peoples, orders constant sacrifices, orders men to stay away from menstruating women… why are all those things now taboo, while killing animals to satisfy a craving is still acceptable? Please keep in mind that animals were not eaten until after the Flood- did God change our digestive systems and bodies to need meat? According to research, no, he did not. The human digestive tract reveals that we were never meant to be meat-eaters. If you think it is necessary for a healthy lifestyle, then you should take a look at all the vegetarians of times past. Einstein, da Vinci, Lincoln, and countless others. Here are just a few:
ivu.org/people/writers/scientists.html
ivu.org/people/writers/index.html
This is a list of a few vegan athletes, for those of you who think it is necessary for muscle mass: organicathlete.org/james-southwood

So I ask, what is “necessary”? Gandhi said that any progress made by the shedding of innocent blood he counted as of no consequence. We have poured trillions into animal testing over the years- how far might we be if we had spent that researching ways to mimic the human body, instead of those of animals who have important differences in their biology (for example, chimps deal with AIDS completely differently than us, and scientists have declared them useless in AIDS research, and guinea pigs are actually killed by penicillin, a life-saving drug in humans).Animal testing has been ok’d by the church- see post 58. There is nothing moral wrong w/in the constraints in the CC

Is it “necessary” to feed cows pounds and pounds of grains per 1 pound of meat- grain which would be better used to feed hungry people? Is it “necessary” to allow so much methane gas into God’s air so that you can have a burger? Is that what you call stewardship, friends? Remind me never to entrust my house to you, in that case.

Is it “necessary” for us to separate us from our fellow living creatures, “necessary” to consider them lower and treat them as no more than dirt? If God said that we are more valuable than “many sparrows,” then it is not because the sparrows are any less important to God, but because we are more. If God did not love them in a way that we cannot love even other people, why would he even have them? Does he detest his own creation? Does he want us to destroy that which he made? Sounds a bit ridiculous to me.

Say you want to get rid odf yourr calltle top plant grain. A lot of cattle land is too alkaline for crops, then what ya gonna do. In the meantime you also have millions of cattle to displace. Where they gonna go; gonna kill them & dump them in a landfill till a methane bomb goes off?

 

[mercifulJan]

Some great rational discussions!
I agree, it is not necessary to kill and abuse animals for their flesh and products (milk and eggs). We would be ushing in God’s Kingdom on earth when we make peaceful decisions every day. Someday we will all hopefully live together in God’s peaceful kingdom as said in Isaiah 11.
A great book written by a retired MD, Dr. Holly Roberts,* Vegetarian Christian Saints: Mystics, Ascetics & Monks * has short biographies of 150 saints (St. Francis included) who lived compassionate lives by not causing any animal to suffer for their tastebuds.
A pamphlet written by Fr. John Dear, S.J., Christianity and Vegetarianism: Pursuing the Nonviolence of Jesus is a great read. Hopefully, our Church will begin to teach and live out God’s compassion towards His creatures. I have some of the pamphlets I can send to you- they are also available through PETA. Jan

 

[Ione]

holy_moly:
Why do most meat eaters get upset when animals are compared to humans but then do a comparison of wild animals in nature? God made the animals to hunt each other, that is how THEY eat. Obviously they can get their food no other way (they certainly can’t depend upon a human to care for them). Maybe when he said we could eat meat he meant like the primitive man did it. Even at that we still do not need it to survive and no where in the bible does it say we must eat it, that we are sinners for not. Although those who argue for it become insistant that we MUST eat meat, that’s what the animals were put here for.

And then most meat eaters go on and on how it “says it in the bible”. What about everything else the bible says? Do you follow it all? Yes, Jesus ate fish, but did he have a television, car, computer, etc., etc. Are you going to give up your car? your television? Oh, maybe for a few weeks at lent. But no you won’t give up any of the other conveniences and things YOU WANT. Once again, it’s selfishness. You pick and choose what you want to follow. You choose what’s good for you, not God’s world. There is absolutely no argument to support factory farming, not in the bible, not anywhere. It is destructive and cruel to the animals and the environment.

The conditions animals are raised in AND slaughtered in are both cruel. And most people will never see the inside of a factory farm. “Outsiders” are NOT allowed in. I doubt they would ever let anyone just walk up and take a look inside a slaughterhouse either. In both instances they most likely will tell you it’s disease control. Completely ridiculous if you’ve ever seen the inside of one of these places. They are filthy with dead bodies decaying and sick animals laying dying in with the ones you are going to eat. It’s all about money and greed.

 

[Ione]

"Say you want to get rid odf yourr calltle top plant grain. A lot of cattle land is too alkaline for crops, then what ya gonna do. In the meantime you also have millions of cattle to displace. Where they gonna go; gonna kill them & dump them in a landfill till a methane bomb goes off? "

No, I guess it would be better to just KEEP PRODUCING it til a methane bomb goes off I guess that would be the way to go

The soil could be made to grow crops, maybe not that year but there are things that could be added to the soil to make it productive. (Or we could build a few more developments on it.) I’m sure the land could be used somehow. :ehh: How about a library? Good place to learn some things.

 

[Ideo]

Animal testing has been ok’d by the church- see post 58. There is nothing moral wrong w/in the constraints in the CC

Do not use something that is not empirically provable as proof. This is another topic, but the BIBLE never claims the Church to be infallible.

Say you want to get rid odf yourr calltle top plant grain. A lot of cattle land is too alkaline for crops, then what ya gonna do. In the meantime you also have millions of cattle to displace. Where they gonna go; gonna kill them & dump them in a landfill till a methane bomb goes off?

This is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. Do you do any research whatsoever? Every day, acres upon acres of rainforest are DESTROYED for cattle grazing ground. Yeah, what are you gonna do? It would be ridiculous to stop destroying the rainforest.

I suppose it is a horrible idea to go ahead and humanely slaughter the cattle and use their meat to feed hungry people and carnivores such as big cats in sanctuaries who have been abandoned by ignorant people? Is it necessary to either waste the meat or to let them keep breeding? This is a false dichotomy.

Also, percentage-wise, not a lot of cattle are the happy cows we see grazing in the pasture. goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp

 

[BiologyBrain]

Animals are animals. They were put on earth for human use and/or companionship. You don’t have to eat meat, but no one should tell me that its immoral to eat meat either.

Much animal pasture land cannot be used for vegetation. I don’t exactly believe the rainforest deforestation comment for cattle… I don’t know its not true, but I fail to see the unbiased truth on most of the ‘Go veg’ sites.

If eating meat bothers you - don’t do it. Live on your soy products and other vegetable matter. However, don’t stick your nose up in the air at me while I eat my pork-chop or hamburger. Also, don’t relegate the many people who actually DO NEED animal products for survival to the scrap heap. People have a greater place in Heaven than animals - that’s just the way it is.

As I go into cancer treatment for my newly diagnosed breast cancer I am tremendously thankful for all the rats, rabbits, monkeys, etc who may have died testing the drugs I will need to bring my baby to term & live my life to the fullest. I hope they did not suffer, however, if they did - I’m glad they did not suffer in vain! I will take comfort in my pets (dogs, cats, & horse) for their companionship. However, should their upkeep prove too much for me & my family &/or they are injured beyond a reasonable means, I will sell them or put them down for everyone’s benefit.

 

[Ideo]

Animals are animals. They were put on earth for human use and/or companionship. You don’t have to eat meat, but no one should tell me that its immoral to eat meat either.

Much animal pasture land cannot be used for vegetation. I don’t exactly believe the rainforest deforestation comment for cattle… I don’t know its not true, but I fail to see the unbiased truth on most of the ‘Go veg’ sites.

If eating meat bothers you - don’t do it. Live on your soy products and other vegetable matter. However, don’t stick your nose up in the air at me while I eat my pork-chop or hamburger. Also, don’t relegate the many people who actually DO NEED animal products for survival to the scrap heap. People have a greater place in Heaven than animals - that’s just the way it is.

As I go into cancer treatment for my newly diagnosed breast cancer I am tremendously thankful for all the rats, rabbits, monkeys, etc who may have died testing the drugs I will need to bring my baby to term & live my life to the fullest. I hope they did not suffer, however, if they did - I’m glad they did not suffer in vain! I will take comfort in my pets (dogs, cats, & horse) for their companionship. However, should their upkeep prove too much for me & my family &/or they are injured beyond a reasonable means, I will sell them or put them down for everyone’s benefit.

That’s what YOU believe, but you can’t prove any of it empirically. You stick your nose in the air when a sick woman gets an abortion of a fetus, and are okay with torturing chimps in the name of “science”. But you cannot empirically prove your views. They are MORAL views, not absolute ones. I believe that all living creatures are worth just as much- just like a mentally handicapped human is no less a valuable life than mine, even though in many cases they lack the moral judgement that people consider the defining thing about “humanity”.
If I believe that you killing an animal is just as bad as you killing an unborn child, why on earth would I not speak out against it? It is ridiculous and hypocritical of you to suggest that my views are less important than yours and should not be voiced. I believe it is wrong, you do not. That’s fine. But don’t suggest that I don’t have the right to tell others that I believe it is wrong, and WHY I believe it is wrong. You can quote bible verses all day, but at the end of the day, the one with empirical, scientifically proven research to back them up is me. I base my moral views on things that I can prove, like the fact that animals feel pain just as intensely as I do.

And to suggest that the rainforest situation is a myth is ridiculous. It is a known fact, and what it has to do with things is that 1) 99% of earth’s variations are in rainforests, 2) scientists believe that the cures to those diseases you wish to sacrifice animals for are in these forests, and 3) you wouldn’t have to find vegetation that would grow in those areas if you left them alone in the first place.

Like someone else suggested, why not go ahead and build in those areas? We are constantly expanding, anyways, so if a place is not good for growth, why not use it in another way? Another false dichotomy you are creating.

independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/rainforest-razed-so-cattle-can-graze-1521677.html
news.mongabay.com/2008/0801-amazon.html
rainforests.mongabay.com/0812.htm
rain-tree.com/facts.htm

 

[holy_moly]

"Say you want to get rid odf yourr calltle top plant grain. A lot of cattle land is too alkaline for crops, then what ya gonna do. In the meantime you also have millions of cattle to displace. Where they gonna go; gonna kill them & dump them in a landfill till a methane bomb goes off? "

No, I guess it would be better to just KEEP PRODUCING it til a methane bomb goes off I guess that would be the way to go

The soil could be made to grow crops, maybe not that year but there are things that could be added to the soil to make it productive. (Or we could build a few more developments on it.) I’m sure the land could be used somehow. :ehh: How about a library? Good place to learn some things.

Ione, Have you ever been on a 15 or 20 section ranch? Have you even seen land contaminated by alkaline? It doesn’t sound like it… The problem isn’t lack of land to grow crops (ever heard of CRP land?). Contrary to popular enviromentalist fallacies, there is more land than people & more food than people, that’s why the gov. pays farmers NOT to plant some of their land… Yes Ione, go to a library so you can see how viable this is… hmmm :ehh:

 

[holy_moly]

Animals are animals. They were put on earth for human use and/or companionship. You don’t have to eat meat, but no one should tell me that its immoral to eat meat either.

Much animal pasture land cannot be used for vegetation. I don’t exactly believe the rainforest deforestation comment for cattle… I don’t know its not true, but I fail to see the unbiased truth on most of the ‘Go veg’ sites.

If eating meat bothers you - don’t do it. Live on your soy products and other vegetable matter. However, don’t stick your nose up in the air at me while I eat my pork-chop or hamburger. Also, don’t relegate the many people who actually DO NEED animal products for survival to the scrap heap. People have a greater place in Heaven than animals - that’s just the way it is.

As I go into cancer treatment for my newly diagnosed breast cancer I am tremendously thankful for all the rats, rabbits, monkeys, etc who may have died testing the drugs I will need to bring my baby to term & live my life to the fullest. I hope they did not suffer, however, if they did - I’m glad they did not suffer in vain! I will take comfort in my pets (dogs, cats, & horse) for their companionship. However, should their upkeep prove too much for me & my family &/or they are injured beyond a reasonable means, I will sell them or put them down for everyone’s benefit.

Excellent & reasonable post BB! My wife & I are praying for you, as we have both been through cancer. & :console:

 

[holy_moly]

That’s what YOU believe, but you can’t prove any of it empirically. You stick your nose in the air when a sick woman gets an abortion of a fetus, and are okay with torturing chimps in the name of “science”. But you cannot empirically prove your views. They are MORAL views, not absolute ones. I believe that all living creatures are worth just as much- just like a mentally handicapped human is no less a valuable life than mine, even though in many cases they lack the moral judgement that people consider the defining thing about “humanity”.
If I believe that you killing an animal is just as bad as you killing an unborn child, why on earth would I not speak out against it? It is ridiculous and hypocritical of you to suggest that my views are less important than yours and should not be voiced. I believe it is wrong, you do not. That’s fine. But don’t suggest that I don’t have the right to tell others that I believe it is wrong, and WHY I believe it is wrong. You can quote bible verses all day, but at the end of the day, the one with empirical, scientifically proven research to back them up is me. I base my moral views on things that I can prove, like the fact that animals feel pain just as intensely as I do.

And to suggest that the rainforest situation is a myth is ridiculous. It is a known fact, and what it has to do with things is that 1) 99% of earth’s variations are in rainforests, 2) scientists believe that the cures to those diseases you wish to sacrifice animals for are in these forests, and 3) you wouldn’t have to find vegetation that would grow in those areas if you left them alone in the first place.

Like someone else suggested, why not go ahead and build in those areas? We are constantly expanding, anyways, so if a place is not good for growth, why not use it in another way? Another false dichotomy you are creating.

independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/rainforest-razed-so-cattle-can-graze-1521677.html
news.mongabay.com/2008/0801-amazon.html
rainforests.mongabay.com/0812.htm
rain-tree.com/facts.htm

Why the angry ad hominem attacks ideo? (You stick your nose in the air when a sick woman gets an abortion of a fetus, and are okay with torturing chimps in the name of “science”) Where does your righteous indignation come from? Animals are not equal to human life, get over it. By the way, divine, moral laws are absolute, man’s laws are finite. You’ll have to get over that one too.

Another reminder, you are on a Catholic site. If you don’t like Catholic moral law, get over it, or find an enviro-green friendly site. By the way, this is not a false dichotomy, but a simple real life decision.

Prove, “I believe that all living creatures are worth just as much” Ideo w/ empiracle evidence. It is nothing but your belief backed up by NO empirical evidence, right?

I’ve worked w/ many mentally handicapped people & your assertion that “in many cases they lack the moral judgement (sic) that people consider the defining thing about “humanity”, is a fallacy to a tee; they value human life more than you apparently do.

Where did BB “quote bible verses all day”? You are just full of fallacies ideo! Even if she did, again, this is a Catholic website, so what would you expect?

You say you can prove animals experience pain; yes they do, but do they have will & intellect & an eternal soul? Can you prove that they are equal to human creation, that God has ingrained them w/ the same indelible rights that people have? No, you can’t.

And why the hysterical claim (And to suggest that the rainforest situation is a myth is ridiculous). BB said nothing of the sort. Remember, when you make emotionally bankrupt claims, you lose credibility.

Finally, why can’t you show BB the same compassion for her breast cancer as you claim to have for monkeys? Or is this concept just another ‘false dichotomy’ to you?

 

[holy_moly]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. Do you do any research whatsoever? Every day, acres upon acres of rainforest are DESTROYED for cattle grazing ground. Yeah, what are you gonna do? It would be ridiculous to stop destroying the rainforest.

I suppose it is a horrible idea to go ahead and humanely slaughter the cattle and use their meat to feed hungry people and carnivores such as big cats in sanctuaries who have been abandoned by ignorant people? Is it necessary to either waste the meat or to let them keep breeding? This is a false dichotomy.

Also, percentage-wise, not a lot of cattle are the happy cows we see grazing in the pasture. goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp

Ahem, Ideo, what is it exactly that you find so ridiculous? This is a Catholic website. The Catholic Church is the arbiter of the Bible, not vice versa as Jesus gave authority to a church, not to a group of books, which was not yet the Bible yet, get it? So using the CC as documentation is valid. I simply referred to a post that used it. If you really have a problem w/ it, you should be replying to that poster. But what I don’t understand is I made a comment about the church’s position on animal testing & you went into a tirade on the rainforest… are you ok?
:stretcher:

 

[holy_moly]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. Do you do any research whatsoever? Every day, acres upon acres of rainforest are DESTROYED for cattle grazing ground. Yeah, what are you gonna do? It would be ridiculous to stop destroying the rainforest.

I suppose it is a horrible idea to go ahead and humanely slaughter the cattle and use their meat to feed hungry people and carnivores such as big cats in sanctuaries who have been abandoned by ignorant people? Is it necessary to either waste the meat or to let them keep breeding? This is a false dichotomy.

Also, percentage-wise, not a lot of cattle are the happy cows we see grazing in the pasture. goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp

I like your idea by the way, “to go ahead and humanely slaughter the cattle and use their meat to feed hungry people…” and this is exactly what is happening around the world…

 

[holy_moly]

QUOTE=Ione;5426083]Why do most meat eaters get upset when animals are compared to humans but then do a comparison of wild animals in nature?

It’s called nature Ione, & last I heard, man is still at the top of the food chain…

God made the animals to hunt each other, that is how THEY eat

.
And God made humans to hunt animals, & that is how THEY eat.

Obviously they can get their food no other way (they certainly can’t depend upon a human to care for them).

Actually, humans take care of and manage most all of the animals of the planet.

Maybe when he said we could eat meat he meant like the primitive man did it. Even at that we still do not need it to survive and no where in the bible does it say we must eat it, that we are sinners for not.

And nowhere does it say we must not eat it, but it does say God gave man dominion over animals & plants…and to act accordingly.

Although those who argue for it become insistant that we MUST eat meat, that’s what the animals were put here for

.
You are arguing w/ yourself on this one…Actually, the most vituperative, idiotic behavior comes from the peta crowd & their gremlins…

And then most meat eaters go on and on how it “says it in the bible”.

You whoooo; this is a Catholic site hello?

What about everything else the bible says? Do you follow it all? Yes, Jesus ate fish, but did he have a television, car, computer, etc., etc. Are you going to give up your car? your television? Oh, maybe for a few weeks at lent. But no you won’t give up any of the other conveniences and things YOU WANT. Once again, it’s selfishness. You pick and choose what you want to follow. You choose what’s good for you, not God’s world. There is absolutely no argument to support factory farming, not in the bible, not anywhere. It is destructive and cruel to the animals and the environment

.

I try to follow most of it, but I take it in context. Yes Jesus & his buddies ate fish too, but hate to break it too you, no TV’s or cars Factory farming DID NOT EXIST IN Biblical times, so as humans, we have to see that conditions are as humane as possible. If you see abuses do something. Tell us what conveniences you have given up Ione, so you can be a role model… have you given up your housing, or keep the house & just give up the plumbing heat & electricity. Perhaps then give your clothing & car away followed by all your sports equipment. This would all be quite biblical & then you could give it all to the poor! What a fine role model you’d be to all the rest of us selfish meat eating tv watchers

The conditions animals are raised in AND slaughtered in are both cruel. And most people will never see the inside of a factory farm. “Outsiders” are NOT allowed in. I doubt they would ever let anyone just walk up and take a look inside a slaughterhouse either. In both instances they most likely will tell you it’s disease control. Completely ridiculous if you’ve ever seen the inside of one of these places.

They are filthy with dead bodies decaying and sick animals laying dying in with the ones you are going to eat. It’s all about money and greed/

QUOTE]

You’re right, most people won’t, including me. Where I live there are no such things, tho there are local small scale ones. As to the bold section, don’t believe everything you read

 

[holy_moly]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. Do you do any research whatsoever?

B]Every day, acres upon acres of rainforest are DESTROYED for cattle grazing ground. Yeah, what are you gonna do? It would be ridiculous to stop destroying the rainforest.

Last I looked, there were no RFs in the United states. Has this conversation GONE SOUTH?

I suppose it is a horrible idea to go ahead and humanely slaughter the cattle and use their meat to feed hungry people and carnivores such as big cats in sanctuaries who have been abandoned by ignorant people? Is it necessary to either waste the meat or to let them keep breeding? This is a false dichotomy.

Also, percentage-wise, not a lot of cattle are the happy cows we see grazing in the pasture. goveg.com/factoryFarming.asp

Last I looked, there were no RFs in the United states. Has this conversation GONE SOUTH?

 

[Ione]

holy moly,
"As to the bold section, don’t believe everything you read "
I’m not sure which bold section you are referring to but if it is about the dead and decaying bodies it is NOT something I read. I’ve SEEN it first hand and I know what goes on on factory farms. And I’m NOT PETA or one of their gremlins. And the things I have wrote about are not things I have read they are all things I have personally experienced!

 

[4elise]

As I go into cancer treatment for my newly diagnosed breast cancer I am tremendously thankful for all the rats, rabbits, monkeys, etc who may have died testing the drugs I will need to bring my baby to term & live my life to the fullest.

Will be praying for you and you little one’s health as you undergo this treatment. It must be frightening. Peace

 

[heiscominginthe]

I look at it this way, the Word of God says if you say you love God, but hate your brother, you are a liar.

Animals are not man, but they are living creatures put on this earth for man. To be used in food is not cruelty to animals. Yet, to purposely hurt or torment an animal is not of God. How can a man have the love of Christ in him and purposely hurt an animal.

Now, when animals attack man, the animal is to be put to death quickly.

 

[Ideo]

holymoly, your arguments against me are what I am saying is wrong. You are also attacking the person, genius. There were SEVERAL posts on the rainforest, and those were what I was responding to. Please actually read the posts before you strike out like a wounded cat. And I’m sorry, but Catholic doctrine cannot be empirically proven. And I’ve already said that my moral views are BASED ON scientific fact, which IS empirically proveable. Can you empirically prove that the “life” of a clump of cells in a woman’s womb is worth more than that of a fully grown, feeling, sensing, decision-making animal? Can you? No. Your views are moral. Mine are also moral, but they are based on my observations, some of which are here:
Animals can feel pain.
Humans claim to be moral creatures.
It is not moral to cause pain for your own pleasure or satisfaction.
Animals are not carbon copies of humans.
Using them in research on human medicines while alternatives lack funding and could easily surpass the success rate of animal testing if all that money was poured into there is silly and evil.
Humans do not need meat to thrive.
It is silly and evil to kill animals for food when it is not necessary.
Humans claim to be “the Highest animal”
And yet, when it comes down to it, their defense for their actions is, “hey, it’s nature. We’re part of nature. So I can kill whatever I want.”
So much for the Highest animal.
More like the Lowest. Thanks, Mark Twain.
Your defenses are selective and hypocritical. It’s okay to kill/torture here, but not okay here. It’s either wrong or it’s not. Either you can kill and torture every animal, including humans (yes, biologically, we are animals), OR you don’t kill or torture any. Take your pick, and for goodness sake, stick to it. If you want to support cruelty, support it. But don’t support it just for the higher animals- support it for the Lowest, also.

 

[Marfran]

As I go into cancer treatment for my newly diagnosed breast cancer

Cancer is a very serious disease. God bless you in your fight. You might want to check out the book: The China Study which explores the link betweeen the heavy animal product Western diet and cancer.

 

[holy_moly]

holymoly, your arguments against me are what I am saying is wrong. You are also attacking the person, genius. There were SEVERAL posts on the rainforest, and those were what I was responding to. Please actually read the posts before you strike out like a wounded cat. And I’m sorry, but Catholic doctrine cannot be empirically proven. And I’ve already said that my moral views are BASED ON scientific fact, which IS empirically proveable. Can you empirically prove that the “life” of a clump of cells in a woman’s womb is worth more than that of a fully grown, feeling, sensing, decision-making animal? Can you? No. Your views are moral. Mine are also moral, but they are based on my observations, some of which are here:
Animals can feel pain.
Humans claim to be moral creatures.
It is not moral to cause pain for your own pleasure or satisfaction.
Animals are not carbon copies of humans.
Using them in research on human medicines while alternatives lack funding and could easily surpass the success rate of animal testing if all that money was poured into there is silly and evil.
Humans do not need meat to thrive.
It is silly and evil to kill animals for food when it is not necessary.
Humans claim to be “the Highest animal”
And yet, when it comes down to it, their defense for their actions is, “hey, it’s nature. We’re part of nature. So I can kill whatever I want.”
So much for the Highest animal.
More like the Lowest. Thanks, Mark Twain.
Your defenses are selective and hypocritical. It’s okay to kill/torture here, but not okay here. It’s either wrong or it’s not. Either you can kill and torture every animal, including humans (yes, biologically, we are animals), OR you don’t kill or torture any. Take your pick, and for goodness sake, stick to it. If you want to support cruelty, support it. But don’t support it just for the higher animals- support it for the Lowest, also.

Where did I make personal attacks ideo? All I did was eviscerate your arguments, many of which were personal attacks on a pregnant woman w/ cancer… It is illogical to say only your moral views can be proven. Moral views, by definition, cannot be proven, period. This was never about your straw man rainforest argument, It started w/ your over-reacting response (This is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. Do you do any research whatsoever?) to a random comment about the Catholic teaching on animal testing. Were you really so scandalized or are you just histrionic?

Catholic Doctrine most certainly can be proven; it’s all documented in the CC. Note, the doctrine of RCC beliefs is what I’m talking about (not faith issues), which is what your original tirade was about. This is not a true/false question; the doctrine exists, whether you agree w/ it or not.

Statements like, “It is silly and evil to kill animals for food when it is not necessary.” are themselves silly & not provable. Dietary choices are not evil. Also Still waiting for you to prove, “I believe that all living creatures are worth just as much”. On what do you base this statement?

Where do you come up w/ , “Your defenses are selective and hypocritical. It’s okay to kill/torture here, but not okay here.”??? Then you say, “It’s either wrong or it’s not. Either you can kill and torture every animal, including humans (yes, biologically, we are animals), OR you don’t kill or torture any…“ So why are you ok w/ killing/torturing unborn human babies, but not dumb animals? See ideo, it is you who are inconsistent, selective & hypocritical.

So why don’t you follow your own advice when you say, “ If you want to support cruelty support it. But don’t support it just for the higher animals- support it for the Lowest, also”. IOW words Ideo, if you think it’s ok to kill babies, why do you say it’s evil to eat meat? It’s a fair question. Especially since this is a Catholic site. I notice you give no religious affiliation; do you profess one? Again a fair question.