Is Dan Schutte's hymn "Here I Am, Lord" appropriate for Mass?

[pnewton]

Maybe we just find it hard to “hold all His people in our hearts”.

Okay, this is just irritating. You changed the words and added the word “all”, then tried to make a big deal out of your editing.

But to answer your question, yes I (and the Church) all people, be they any type of sinner, poor, rich, illiterate, or educated. However, this thread is liturgical, about a song. Perhaps you should look over in social justice if you have something to say in that area.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

It’s quite a change in perspective from traditional hymns. If you compare something like “Holy God, we praise the name. Lord of all, we bow before thee”. A different sentiment from a lot of what we find in current hymnals.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

made fun of by other seminarians because he didn’t speak English well (he had just moved to the US from Mexico)

I hope someone in charge addressed this rampant immaturity among future men of God.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Trolling? You clearly don’t welcome me.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

O? you welcome them at your church?

I welcome anybody who comes to my church as long as they aren’t there to commit blasphemy or intentionally disrupt the service. I could not care less if they’re LGBT, trans, a secret adulterer, masturbator, or just cheated on their taxes.
God is for everybody.
Go troll somewhere else

 

[Shakuhachi]

Sorry to be such an irritation. I thought one of the reasons the song was in question was because it had been used as " an unofficial motto" for LGBT ministry.

 

[pnewton]

Interesting. I wonder if your addition of the word “all” might have been something used that you overheard. If what you say is true, that is some sort of motto, that hardly condemns the song, though I am not a fan of promoting factions within the Church during the Mass. I have just never heard this before, but I do know the words to the song.

BTW, we also should know what the word “troll” means. Posting and engaging in discussion is not trolling. So, welcome. And I was serious about the Social Justice area if you wanted to engage more in this topic.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m unaware of that. I usually hear it at Mass in a context of praying for vocations or having a reading dealing with the Apostles or Disciples, or at Masses for young people discerning their calling in life. Or sometimes simply because it’s a good reflective song for guitar and piano musicians to play.

However, it would not matter to me if it was used for LGBT people. They need people to minister to them, too. Ministering to people does not mean we have to approve of everything they do. I may not have had gay sex in my life, but I’ve done plenty of other grave sins, and I am grateful that the Church still ministered to me and showed me God’s love and didn’t kick me to the curb, or I wouldn’t be here posting to you today.

 

[Shakuhachi]

That is something gracepoole posted early in this thread. I wasn’t aware either until I read it there.

So if that is not the issues then it is Speaking in the place of God? " I the Lord of Sea and sky"?

It seems a clear reference to Isaiah 6:8, as someone else already mentioned.

Or is it the melody people don’t like.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Not social justice as much as Christian charity, agape. As a society we have different standards than as a faith community.

 

[Gorgias]

Please clarify, are you saying that you don’t see a difference between saying, “Sam said, ‘I’m going to the store’” and actually saying “I’m going to the store” in the first person as if you are Sam?

No one cares about Sam.

Your claim, IIRC, is that you don’t think we should speak as God. That is, I’d assert, we shouldn’t give voice to statements that are in the first person, from God’s perspective.

In fact, that’s what priests do during the proclamation of the Gospel, but you seem good with that. In those cases, a priest proclaims, “Jesus said, ‘I am the bread of life.’” But, that’s ok with you, it seems, since it’s a priest doing the proclaiming.

Yet, that’s the same thing that happens in the OT readings, right? In the quote from Isaiah I provided – which gets read at Mass! – God says, “Who shall I send?”.

So, that’s the exact same thing that the priest does in the Gospel! And, as it turns out, it’s the exact same thing as in the song – I would assert that Schutte is both quoting and paraphrasing God’s first-person-statements from the OT.

To answer your question directly: your claim isn’t that there’s a difference between a first-person statement and a third party’s report of that first-person statement; rather, your claim is that you feel uncomfortable with those third person reports, when it’s God’s first-person speech that is being reported. And, I think I’ve demonstrated that this happens in proclamations of the OT… as well as in Schutte’s song.

I don’t think there’s a reason for you to “bow out”… but I do continue to think that your objection isn’t well-founded.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Or is it the melody people don’t like.

A lot of people hate that entire genre of songs composed and popularized by Schutte and his contemporaries, from a musical standpoint. They’re usually the same folks who want organ and chant. I like all of the options.

 

[Shakuhachi]

We’re you around in the 60’s and 70’s when these songs came out? There’re were some far worse. We won’t go there though.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m not one of the haters. And yes, I was around. I actually remember a lot of good Guitar Mass songs from those days. I have always been a big fan of guitars wherever they are, to the chagrin of my parents who were not totally down with the whole guitar Mass concept.

Some of my favorites from backintheday include “They’ll Know We are Christians By Our Love”, “Gonna Sing My Lord”, “Zacchaeus”, “I Cannot Come to the Banquet”, “Shout from the Highest Mountain”. I know in high school we pretty much sang the whole repertoire of the St. Louis Jesuits, and I enjoyed singing those with the group, but just as standalone hymns they don’t move me as much as the earlier stuff. Too often, they’re played at a very draggy tempo.

The one thing all of these songs have in common is that the recordings of them generally just sound dreadful compared to the sound of a whole group of people singing them together at Mass.

 

[PetraG]

The Church used to patronize Palestrina and Mozart. Now, Dan Schutte.

Considering how much difficulty Palestrina had in keeping body and soul together over the course of his illustrious career, to say the Church patronized him is a bit of a stretch.

Also to be fair, not a lot of parishioners are capable of singing Renaissance polyphony, let alone providing talent required to contribute an orchestral work requiring operatic talent and training, such as Mozart’s works. If Mozart’s Masses were to be used in liturgy rather than in a concert hall at all, they would be used for extremely special occasions, such as a papal Mass, because professional singers and orchestra are needed rather than singing by the congregation.

Having said that, there is a musical universe of distance that lies between the work of Palestrina and that of Schutte. I don’t think the work of Dan Schutte would have been at all satisfactory to Pius IV or the cardinals who had worked on the resolutions concerning the matter of sacred music the emerged from the Council of Trent.

Still, I fully expect they’ll be singing his songs when I’m dead. There are plenty of people who like them and they don’t violate any non-negotiable liturgical rules.

 

[EqualinHim]

I think it’s more appropriate for the end of mass during the recessional. But that’s just me.

 

[Darryl_B]

Beethoven you mean?

 

[Darryl_B]

The Church used to patronize Palestrina and Mozart. Now, Dan Schutte.

The Church is so patronizing. Why doesn’t Dan Schutte (never heard of him) stand up for himself and say “Stop patronizing me”.

 

[commenter]

It’s not really my taste, but if you don’t care about the congregation speaking as God (I, the Lord of sea and sky…), then yes, it’s fine for the liturgy. I don’t think many people notice that sort of thing anyway.

I also am concerned over hymns where the congregation speaks as God. The transcendence of God is mildly undermined. The problem is that people as you say do not notice that sort of thing, but it does affect them.

There is a subtle tendency, in some church music and in many other areas, to portray “the Lord” as my own deeper desires. (If I am doing exactly what I feel like doing, then god is present).

To put it another way, there is a lack of songs about the majesty of God, and about our need for conversion, to balance out songs like this. The sense I get from this song, is “Here I am, you like me as I am, no need to change”.

 

[OraLabora]

I also am concerned over hymns where the congregation speaks as God.

Umm, there are ancient Gregorian chants where the cantor/schola/people sing as God in the First Person. It’s the way the psalms, which form a major part of chants for the Mass, were written and thus were sung. For example, the introit “Invocabit me” for the first Sunday in Lent, from Psalm 90(91), verses 15 and 16:

When they call to me, I will answer them;
I will be with them in trouble,
I will rescue them and honor them.

If the Church were to suddenly decide that music where humans chant in the first person as God is no longer licit, we would have to throw away an awful lot of Gregorian chant, we would no longer be able to chant the Psalms at Mass or in the Divine Office, etc.

There is nothing wrong with music that brings scripture alive.

As for the words “here I am Lord”, check out Acts of the Apostles, chapter 9. They are scriptural and certainly seem applicable to anyone who hears His call!