Is Darwin's Theory of Evolution True? Part 4.0

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You are denying the programming of life? Yes or no
Yes I am. You have claimed that it exists, but have shown no evidence. All you have is roughly what the Discovery Institute has “It sure looks designed (or programmed) to me.”

Yes, life is complex. However, evolution is perfectly capable of producing complex outcomes, so that is not a valid argument.

rossum
 
I’m sensing reluctance about the mechanism of creation here, if I may say so.

I can envisage Techno2000’s assemblage of elephants from a sort of cloud of particles, miraculously coming together to form an actual living being (although I quite liked the lump of clay and disembodied hands as well), but we still have nothing from Aloysium, buffalo and edwest211 that we can actually envisage.

Why is this, I wonder? Can it be because when we try to envisage the physical act of spontaneous creation, it turns out to be less credible than the gradual accumulation of differences that we see happening, in a smaller scale, in every domesticated animal and plant. Evolutionists think that the first elephants were born, in a manner not dissimilar from the way they are born today, from parents who looked very similar to their offspring.

What, please, do Aloysium, buffalo and edwest211 think?
 
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I’m sensing reluctance about the mechanism of creation here, if I may say so.
Glad you said so. Generally speaking, not addressing one’s assumptions leads not only to greater misunderstandings, but keeps us in ignorance.

It’s odd to speak of a mechanism of creation. It’s sounds like an oxymoron, you know - jumbo shrimp, clearly confused, a plastic glass, the only choice - the latter example addressing the creative capacity of free will. I can think of no mechanism there; any would make it not free.
we still have nothing from Aloysium
The royal we may not have understood Aloysium; I most definitely feel like I wrote a lot. What comes to mind is an old saying about keys lost in the dark, and the seeker searching for them under the lamp post because that is where there is light. Whether or not we can envision something does not determine its reality, sometimes we need to extend our vision and, with humility acknowledge the limits of our knowledge and ask, He who grants that capacity to fill us.

I would be only speculating were I to envision how the stone moved from the entrance of the tomb, how Jesus was raised from the dead, how He entered a closed room, or how water turned into wine. I can’t envision what happens to me after death; purgatory, heaven and hell require a different sort of “envisioning”. But even with respect to the physical, my envisioning of the Big Bang, the universe as plasma, subatomic and atomic particles is an educated illusion. I was there, but trying to envision my conception actually blows my mind, since it involves everything I know about everything.
Evolutionists think that the first elephants were born, in a manner not dissimilar from the way they are born today, from parents who looked very similar to their offspring.
I don’t think you are surprised to know that I am able to envision that too. However, when I try to envision dust coming together of its own accord to form the first cell, a later version of that cell somehow growing a nucleus, errors in genetic information leading to the development of cillia, and later the specialization of single cells to come together as multicellular organisms, the advent and development of psychology, and ultimately a creature with an eternal, rational spirit, all this the result of random molecular changes, it all sounds like nonsense. Looking at the beauty and diversity of life, and envisioning that it has all come about solely because those creatures spontaneously came into being and survived, doesn’t satisfy my need to find a simple final truth; it is simplistic and revealing only of intellectual blinkers.

I think this is a question you must answer for yourself. Were I to express my vision, which is speculation, it would just confuse.
 
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Well fair enough, as I replied to Techno2000. At least you have addressed the question. Thank you.

Buffalo? Edwest 211?
 
I see God as an artist. He thinks and the canvas comes alive with his thoughts. Once added His providence upholds His creation.

A few basic colors can produce millions of shades.
 
Artificial Intelligence and Human Exceptionalism: A Conversation with Dr. Robert Marks


Conclusion: Intelligence is the source of creativity.
 
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Evolutionists think that the first elephants were born, in a manner not dissimilar from the way they are born today, from parents who looked very similar to their offspring
Technically evolutionary thought proposes the first elephants looked a lot more like pigs than they do now.
 
Yes, fine, but. The world is not a canvas. It’s a world. And an elephant is not a picture. I can’t make up my mind if you’re deliberately evading the question or not. The thing is, it’s quite easy to imagine spontaneous creation in metaphorical or philosophical terms, but when it comes down to what actually occurred, then biting the bullet and visualising the sudden arrival ex nihilo seems impossible to champion, doesn’t it? At least you’re not alone. There are vanishingly few opponents of evolution who can stand up for spontaneous creation at a practical level.
 
I really don’t get what you are asking for.

If we knew how to do it, we would be God.
 
Unsubstantiated.
Substantiated. See The Evolutionary Origin of Complex Features.

That paper was triggered by Professor Behe’s suggestion that IC systems could not evolve. Lenski’s paper, and others, showed that Behe was wrong. Behe was correct that IC systems cannot evolve by direct routes, but they can evolve by indirect routes.

Behe, correctly, modified his hypothesis accordingly.
“They began by using him as a short-cut, a convenience; now he has made himself an essential. In that great brain of his everything is pigeon-holed and can be handed out in an instant.”
– Sherlock Holmes on his brother Mycroft, The Bruce-Partington Plans.
rossum
 
Programs by definition are goal oriented. This is cool but really only reinforces the programming of life.
 
There are vanishingly few opponents of evolution who can stand up for spontaneous creation at a practical level.
Just imagine a cloud of atoms swirling around like a tornado, and then slowly condensing into a material form.
 
I really don’t get what you are asking for.

If we knew how to do it, we would be God.
Yes, of course. But I don’t mind ‘how it was done’. What do you think it looked like? Do you agree with Techno2000, whose explanation is clear and easy to visualise? Or is he alone in being able to make any kind of actual connection between the intellection idea of spontaneous creation and what physically occurred?

And yes, I found the IDvolution website, and quite interesting it was. To me, it seemed that, at a practical, observational level, it would be impossible to tell the difference between IDvolution and ordinary evolution. The difference lies at a philosophical level, not an observational or experimental one. Is that your understanding of ‘creation’?

And edwest 211? Anything?
 
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There are vanishingly few opponents of evolution who can stand up for spontaneous creation at a practical level.
And we are supposed to envision a lighting bolt hitting the primordial soup and creatures coming alive ?
 
No, that’s conflating with abiogenesis, but I think it’s now that you’re supposed to imagine a lightning bolt hitting the soup at the same time that a meteorite lands near which just so happens to have complex enough genetic code or something near a volcano underwater. and then also other stuff we don’t understand as well.
 
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