Is death Natural?

[Paddy1989]

Paddy1989:

There is a reason both Jesus and Holy Mother Mary did not suffer bodily death, again real events in history, because they were without Sin.

I believe Jesus died on a cross. The Church doesn’t have any teaching on whether or not Mary died before she was assumed into heaven. It would seem obvious that she died.

Regardless they were assumed into heaven body and soul as they were sinless. As Catholics i believe we have to be careful what we believe to be figurative and what is literal. For example many Catholics will say that there can be no conflict with our beliefs and what is Science and then when asked about how old Noah was such as that he lived 900 years which scientifically is impossible they will cave in and say oh that’s just figurative. When then asked about Jesus and his Resurrection which again is believed to be scientifically impossible they will say they believe it not merely as allegory but as a literal fact. To me it just seems like arbitrarily picking and choosing but how then can we be taken seriously. The story of the fall like creation is both figurative and historical, it really happened otherwise God would not have really needed to incarnate himself into man and really die for our sins

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Noah was such as that he lived 900 years which scientifically is impossible they will say oh that’s just figurative. When then asked about Jesus and his Resurrection which again is believed to be scientifically impossible they will say they believe it not merely as allegory but as a literal fact. To me it just seems like arbitrarily picking and choosing

It’s not arbitrary to me. To use your example, for starters, one story comes from the OT and the other from the NT. Most of the OT isn’t really anything like the NT in the way it was written, especially Genesis. The exception in the NT being Revelation.

The story of Noah is considered to be an allegory. Jesus’ resurrection is not. I think a lot of people think that without the resurrection the Apostles would have walked away. Certainly, without Pentecost there would probably be no Church today.

 

[Paddy1989]

Paddy1989:

Noah was such as that he lived 900 years which scientifically is impossible they will say oh that’s just figurative. When then asked about Jesus and his Resurrection which again is believed to be scientifically impossible they will say they believe it not merely as allegory but as a literal fact. To me it just seems like arbitrarily picking and choosing

It’s not arbitrary to me. To use your example, for starters, one story comes from the OT and the other from the NT. Most of the OT isn’t really anything like the NT in the way it was written, especially Genesis. The exception in the NT being Revelation.

The story of Noah is considered to be an allegory. Jesus’ resurrection is not. I think a lot of people think that without the resurrection the Apostles would have walked away. Certainly, without Pentecost there would probably be no Church today.

Noah really existed, how much of the story is allegory is up for debate. The fact that he lived so long doesn’t appear to be allegorical though. Also since the NT is not as much allegorical as the OT then the story of sin originating from one man is true according to St Paul in the NT

 

[TK421]

From this point onwards it was necessary for us to die. There is a reason both Jesus and Holy Mother Mary did not suffer bodily death, again real events in history, because they were without Sin.

Bodily death is therefore not how things were meant to be yet clearly from a scientific perspective we can see that it is if we are products of evolution which is now held as the general consensus among Catholicism regarding the origin of life

Jesus died as a young adult. Mary is traditionally believed to have died before her body was assumed into Heaven.

Does being in a state of original justice actually mean somebody is immortal? Adam & Eve didn’t have Original Sin but they didn’t have glorified bodies either. Only Jesus had a glorified body after the Resurrection (and Mary has a glorified body but not before dying). Human beings were never meant to live in this world forever.

 

[Paddy1989]

Paddy1989:

From this point onwards it was necessary for us to die. There is a reason both Jesus and Holy Mother Mary did not suffer bodily death, again real events in history, because they were without Sin.

Bodily death is therefore not how things were meant to be yet clearly from a scientific perspective we can see that it is if we are products of evolution which is now held as the general consensus among Catholicism regarding the origin of life

Jesus died as a young adult. Mary is traditionally believed to have died before her body was assumed into Heaven.

Does being in a state of original justice actually mean somebody is immortal? Adam & Eve didn’t have Original Sin but they didn’t have glorified bodies either. Only Jesus had a glorified body after the Resurrection (and Mary has a glorified body but not before dying). Human beings were never meant to live in this world forever.

If not then why do look forward to the new heaven and new earth where our physical bodies will be reunited with our soul. We are created both body and soul and that is the way we intended. our bodies suffer death as a result of our sin, not what was intended for us which is why the Catechism teaches that death is the result of our sin meaning it didn’t exist prior

 

[TK421]

Right, but Jesus and Mary both died and they didn’t have Original Sin. Perhaps God simply allowed Mary to die anyway since her life was a white martyrdom.

We weren’t meant to live in this world forever. We were made for Heaven. So if we didn’t pass through death & then resurrection, then without sin I guess we would just be assumed into Heaven.

 

[Paddy1989]

Right, but Jesus and Mary both died and they didn’t have Original Sin. Perhaps God simply allowed Mary to die anyway since her life was a white martyrdom.

We weren’t meant to live in this world forever. We were made for Heaven. So if we didn’t pass through death & then resurrection, then without sin I guess we would just be assumed into Heaven.

If we were made for heaven they why a new earth? If death didn’t enter until we sinned then it is clear we weren’t created to die which is why death is so feared among humanity. Perhaps heaven and earth by nature are intertwined like body and soul which divided and fell away after the fall but if we were created body and soul in a material universe then there is definitely a deeper reason behind it rather than just to be temporary

 

[TK421]

Heaven (the union with God in the Beatific Vision) is primarily a state of being, but earth is a place. We will have glorified bodies in the hereafter so we are going to physically dwell somewhere.

Adam & Eve weren’t in the Beatific Vision and they didn’t have glorified bodies. So they still needed to rise into Heaven but I guess without death as the way of passage.

 

[Vico]

Death makes its entrance into human history

The death is two-fold per the Council of Orange: spiritual (loss of sanctifying grace) and corporeal (loss of the potential immortality, the unrealized preternatural gift). Adam and Eve ate from the wrong tree, the tree of knowledge of good and evil rather than the tree of life.

Council of Orange (529)

Canon 2. If anyone asserts that Adam’s sin affected him alone and not his descendants also, or at least if he declares that it is only the death of the body which is the punishment for sin, and not also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race, he does injustice to God and contradicts the Apostle, who says, “Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned” (Rom. 5:12).

 

[jochoa]

Hello @Paddy1989,

I perceive two points in which you are possibly going wrong:

1. You are lacking some understanding of how God’s omniscience shapes his plan for Creation. Since God knew that the goal was eternal life for man, and man’s sin would introduce death into his’story, God created a plan that would grant man freedom to approach God via faith, while making use of death and destruction, including the beauty that can come from death and destruction, as a means to draw man back to Him.
2. You have falsely limited evolution to stopping at being satisfied with ending in death. Since evolution seeks to advance life, the greatest fulfillment of evolution would be life that doesn’t end.

 

[EndTimes]

Is death Natural?​

Now it is…

After our Lord Jesus’ Return those welcomed into God’s Kingdom have access to the Tree of Life.

LOVING ONE ANOTHER - in action - is the means by which one inherits Eternal Life