Is debt a Sin?

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Is debt ( such as credit card debt) a sin?

I am referring to having credit cards and using them for “normal”, ( not wasteful) household purchases…paying the amount due,on time, but not paying 100% of the balance at the end of the month…
And then there’s car payments.That is a debt…As is a mortgage…

Pondering money management…
 
Well, just my personal opinion, but I would say that debt honestly taken on with the intention and ability to repay is not sinful. I don’t think things changing making one unable to pay the debt makes it sinful either.

However, I would say that deliberately taking on debt with the full knowledge that one doesn’t have the ability to repay it, or with the deliberate intention to not repay it would be sinful as it would be theft.

Taking on huge credit card debt with the intention of declaring bankrupt to avoid repaying it is far different than taking on credit card debt and than having life circumstances change (loss of job/serious illness etc.) affecting your ability to repay it.
 
cshoremom said:
Is debt ( such as credit card debt) a sin?

I am referring to having credit cards and using them for “normal”, ( not wasteful) household purchases…paying the amount due,on time, but not paying 100% of the balance at the end of the month…
And then there’s car payments.That is a debt…As is a mortgage…

Pondering money management…
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No, debt is not a sin. In the OT, God lays out law and ways in which people are to handle their debt. Note that He never prescribes a stoning (or anything similar) for being in debt to someone.

What WOULD be a sin, as I’ve heard, is if you had that debt and were not paying your debtors back responsibly, such as missing payments or not paying the full amount due (intentionally), or using that money that you know should go to the debtors for superfluous things, or by gambling it away, etc. The thing to remember, though, is that we also have a responsibility to take care of our families. So, if you were in some very difficult financial situation and had to choose between making a credit card payment and feeding your children, you must provide for your family first.
 
styrgwillidar said:
Well, just my personal opinion, but I would say that debt honestly taken on with the intention and ability to repay is not sinful. I don’t think things changing making one unable to pay the debt makes it sinful either.

However, I would say that deliberately taking on debt with the full knowledge that one doesn’t have the ability to repay it, or with the deliberate intention to not repay it would be sinful as it would be theft.

Taking on huge credit card debt with the intention of declaring bankrupt to avoid repaying it is far different than taking on credit card debt and than having life circumstances change (loss of job/serious illness etc.) affecting your ability to repay it.
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In general I would agree with you. But I would add a of very strong caveat. Bear with me, it will take a while to explain.

There is still such as thing as a sin of usury. Now, many people thing of usury as simply charging too high of an interest rate, but that is too simplistic. Usury occurs when one charges an interest rate that will, in and of itself, make repayment of the interest loan a great burden on the borrower. (It is a more complicated than that, but that suffices for my current argument).

There is no doubt in my mind that almost all credit card companies today engage in usurous practices. They are vultures, often accepting credit from the people not able to pay, and then charge high rates; which provide great burden on people. If one looks closely at the business model of credit card companies, they depend on their profit margins from all types of borrowers: those who use CC as transaction tools only (ie paying them off every month) and those who they charge high rates to. If you miss don’t abide by their rules, they impose very high penalties.

So I believe that using CCs today amounts to either *implicit formal cooperation *with evil:

Implicit formal cooperation occurs when the organization denies intending the wrongdoing of the principal agent, but participates in the action directly and in such a way that it could not be done without this participation.

OR at the very least Immediate material cooperation:

Immediate material cooperation - Doing something that is necessary for the actual performance of the evil act, directly involved.

So I think using a CC is sinful (note, there may be CC companies that do not practise in these ways, but I don’t know who they are). Now, this is VERY subjective on my part, I admit. Many people would say either CC do not practise usury (they would be simply ignorant, I had to clean up my mentally ill brother’s financial mess a few years ago, and you would be shocked) OR that using a CC in a responsible way is at worse *remote mediate cooperation *with evil (which is not sinful).

But me, I think credit card companies, check cashing companies, pay-day loan companies, pawn shops all practise usury and are great evils in our society. So we should not use them.
One of the failures of the Church leadership in this day and age is not doing a better job explaining what usury is in our modern economy and what usury is not. And not speaking out against the widespread practice, which targets and takes advantage of some of the least fortunate of those around us.
 
tafan said:
In general I would agree with you…
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You raise a good discussion point. I would agree based where a company intentionally sets rates to establish effectively a ‘permanent’ indebtedness. Kind of like the old ‘company store’ where an employee bought tools/equimpent credited against his paycheck but where the cost/interest was so high there was no hope of paying it back.

Now, I disagree with your premise that this is widespread and given that these transactions in the US at least, are done with the full knowledge and cooperation of both parties. I think you are not giving the CC holder enough credit/responsibility for looking out for their own interests. For being adults vice just older children incapable of understanding or handling their own affairs. You aren’t forced to take out CC’s or payday loans- they are choices. It’s large market with a lot of providers competing and it is possible to get reasonable rates. The rules are very clear in the agreements and I’ve never had a problem getting the company representatives to explain (even providing clarification in writing when I requested it) wording or items in the agreements I didn’t understand.

But, I do agree that if one believes that CC companies or other businesses are operating immorally, charging rates given their overall business model that are excessive, that one should seriously consider doing business with ethical companies.

There are some problems with social justice theories being applied to companies. That is, are they avoiding providing credit cards to individuals strictly due to their financial status, or because of their ethnic group? Hamfisted attempts to correct social wrongs can have unintended affects. Our mortgage meltdown being a good example, financial institutions being pressured to ‘increase diversity’ and ‘empower minorities’ leading them to provide credit based on factors other than financial ability to handle the loan. That was coupled with greed in many transactions when lenders looked at the rising values of property and gambled that even if borrowers defaulted, they could foreclose and get their money back even though the borrower would be financially ruined credit-wise and out of a home…

(I have a relative in this situation- it was his own doing. He bought way too much house than he could afford on a zero-interest balloon type loan. He figured his house was going to rocket up in value and he would flip it in just a couple of years, like a lot of other folks were thinking. So both he and the lender took a risk based on the same assumption that the house would increase to cover the loan. They both got burned when the market turned but both parties knowingly took the risk and lost; I don’t see why others (ie taxpayers) should be expected to cough up funds since many people didn’t take that risk).

This also leads to the balance in setting up bankruptcy laws. Too easy to declare bankruptcy and it’s easier for the unscrupulous to rack up debt and walk away from it. That drives up the requirement for CC interest rates to cover the losses which are covered by the other customers. Too hard and good, honest folks with every intention of paying their debts have no ability to recover from and make a new start after life’s disasters- losing a job, medical condition, accidents.
 
😦 I wish my 18 year old self have a clue of what student loan debt really meant in the real world. I thought I would be able to pay it off easy. Now my family can hardly afford to have another child because we have monthly payments of roughly $500. :banghead: I can honestly say it is my biggest regret of all time.
 
Ophelia23 said:
😦 I wish my 18 year old self have a clue of what student loan debt really meant in the real world. I thought I would be able to pay it off easy. Now my family can hardly afford to have another child because we have monthly payments of roughly $500. :banghead: I can honestly say it is my biggest regret of all time.
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Too many of us parents don’t do a good job of educationg our kids on finances. Then in the US, there was all this cultural pressure to go to college and the government made it so easy to take out loans. Not just for college but for ‘trade’ or technical schools as well. I know a lot of pilots who financed their training with student loans only to find out that airline jobs just don’t pay enough to even hope to pay off those loans. The other insidious thing being the easy availability of loans was a driver to all of the schools increasing their tuitions/costs driving even bigger loan requirements.

There’s also the problem of unforeseen changes. The college degree you were pursuing may have looked like a solid/affordable path when you started but the world has changed…not something you could have known going in. Quality of vision in retrospect and all that…
 
I’m going to paraphrase some Biblical concepts, I apologize for not looking up their Chapter and Verse.

First Paul said that Master and Slave, Rich and Poor, Man and Woman are all part of Christ.

Second that a debtor is a Slave of the Lender.

Third That to be Free is better than to be Enslaved and you should seek Freedom to better serve the One true Master, the Lord.

From all this I conclude that taking on Debt is of itself, not a sin and in this time and place usury can be rather easily avoided. There needs to be a compelling and take a very careful consideration about enslaving your financial power in this sort of agreement and in general the close calls fall to the side of Paul’s exhortations to avoid debt, because there are many sinful reasons to go into debt and it can leave you vulnerable and result in losing out financially in the long run.

How I conform my life to these conclusions:

I think you should always avoid Credit Card Debt. That if you have a serious exception that makes it advantageous to take on debt you should find a better form of loan. I do use them and pay them off before the grace period expires and pay no fees to own or use them.

I think there is a strong case for buying a home via Home mortgage and I’ve done this, but kept my total debt under 4 times my yearly take home pay. I consider a living space a necessity, something like a tent is not an option. Paying rent and living in an apartment is as much a financial burden as paying a home mortgage and I kept the payment under 150% of what I could rent and that in a rented apartment with only half the floor space. In just a few years rent went far above what i still pay for my twice refinanced Mortgage.

I regard just about all other debt as too dangerous and not to my advantage.

A car loan to get to work? There really has to be no other way and for a very minimal (over 100,000 mile) used basic transportation. If that is even available.
 
In short, no.

Do we have to be careful to avoid capriciousness? Yes. Can it be sinful to overspend (unnecessary/luxury items)? Yes. Do we have to be careful with where our money goes? Yes. Is it wrong to take advantage of someone lending you money? Yes. Is it bad to take advantage of someone borrowing money from you? Yes Do we have to be prudent? Yes etc etc… but by no means is debt, on its own, sinful.
 
styrgwillidar said:
You raise a good discussion point. I would agree based where a company intentionally sets rates to establish effectively a ‘permanent’ indebtedness. Kind of like the old ‘company store’ where an employee bought tools/equimpent credited against his paycheck but where the cost/interest was so high there was no hope of paying it back.

Now, I disagree with your premise that this is widespread and given that these transactions in the US at least, are done with the full knowledge and cooperation of both parties. I think you are not giving the CC holder enough credit/responsibility for looking out for their own interests. For being adults vice just older children incapable of understanding or handling their own affairs. You aren’t forced to take out CC’s or payday loans- they are choices. It’s large market with a lot of providers competing and it is possible to get reasonable rates. The rules are very clear in the agreements and I’ve never had a problem getting the company representatives to explain (even providing clarification in writing when I requested it) wording or items in the agreements I didn’t understand.

But, I do agree that if one believes that CC companies or other businesses are operating immorally, charging rates given their overall business model that are excessive, that one should seriously consider doing business with ethical companies.

There are some problems with social justice theories being applied to companies. That is, are they avoiding providing credit cards to individuals strictly due to their financial status, or because of their ethnic group? Hamfisted attempts to correct social wrongs can have unintended affects. Our mortgage meltdown being a good example, financial institutions being pressured to ‘increase diversity’ and ‘empower minorities’ leading them to provide credit based on factors other than financial ability to handle the loan. That was coupled with greed in many transactions when lenders looked at the rising values of property and gambled that even if borrowers defaulted, they could foreclose and get their money back even though the borrower would be financially ruined credit-wise and out of a home…

(I have a relative in this situation- it was his own doing. He bought way too much house than he could afford on a zero-interest balloon type loan. He figured his house was going to rocket up in value and he would flip it in just a couple of years, like a lot of other folks were thinking. So both he and the lender took a risk based on the same assumption that the house would increase to cover the loan. They both got burned when the market turned but both parties knowingly took the risk and lost; I don’t see why others (ie taxpayers) should be expected to cough up funds since many people didn’t take that risk).

This also leads to the balance in setting up bankruptcy laws. Too easy to declare bankruptcy and it’s easier for the unscrupulous to rack up debt and walk away from it. That drives up the requirement for CC interest rates to cover the losses which are covered by the other customers. Too hard and good, honest folks with every intention of paying their debts have no ability to recover from and make a new start after life’s disasters- losing a job, medical condition, accidents.
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Don’t get me wrong; I understand the CC holder is just as responsible when he takes out bad debt. But just because there are people who are dumb enough to be taken advantage of and to mismanage their own finances to an extreme degree does NOT alleviate the moral culpability of the companies who take advantage of that.

Also, in general, I do not support regulations from the government to alleviate these problems. Where did I ever say or imply that??? As you point out, it is an area where unintended consequences can reign supreme.

What I said is that we should not be formally or immediately materially cooperating with those companies. And it is VERY widespread.

What I also said is that the Church should be educating us on what usury is in this day and age so that 1) we can better avoid being taken advantage of and 2) so that we do not participate in the sin itself.
 
If debt is a sin then 100,000 people would be living in sin. debt as i have had is not of my fault. at one time in my past life we were far in debt. because we were poor and without work. we tryed to get out of debt but with no income it was impossible. some house with the help of God we are now free of debt. so I cannot say Ihave sinned because at the hardship time of my life it was impossible tobe debt free. when you are unemployed. Thank You Lord or helping me get out :byzsoc::gopray2:
 
Debt is not a sin. It is nothing more than making a purchase in which you promise to pay at a future date, sometimes paying the seller or the party willing to loan you the money for the privelege of having that time. If you reasonably have the means to repay, if the person you are loaning to is reasonably able to do it, if the terms are reasonable, and of course if what you are buying is a moral use of the wealth you have or can reasonably hope you will have, there is no sin in that on either side.

A person is a moral actor even when he or she is acting on behalf of a company, a political party, a government, or some other organization. In other words, groups of people are bound by moral law just as much as individuals are, with the same extenuations as if one person rather than a group were invested with greater responsibility or greater powers to act. If something were to be immoral for a king, it would be immoral for a collection of elected officials, too. If an action would be wrong for an industrial titan investing his own money or investing money for a large number of his friends, it would be wrong for a board of directors working for a collection of stockholders.

If a person is coerced beyond his or her ability to resist, the person or persons who coerced him or her is guilty of the crime: that is, although each person is his or her own actor, there can be mitigating factors. If a poor man takes the only job he can get to feed his family and is forced to do immoral things in order to eat, it is the employer that bears the lion’s share of the guilt for what his coerced agent does at his bidding.
bcra said:
If debt is a sin then 100,000 people would be living in sin. debt as i have had is not of my fault. at one time in my past life we were far in debt. because we were poor and without work. we tryed to get out of debt but with no income it was impossible. some house with the help of God we are now free of debt. so I cannot say Ihave sinned because at the hardship time of my life it was impossible tobe debt free. when you are unemployed. Thank You Lord or helping me get out :byzsoc::gopray2:
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Debt is not a sin, but not because it is prevalent. A moral fault that becomes prevalent is still a moral fault.

Some who are in debt are there by sinful imprudence, but others are in debt out of misfortune following taking risks that even the prudent must take or simply because, as you say, a person who has no work still has to live. It is often more moral to take on a debt than to go through the consequences of failing to do so.

Likewise, some people get very rich because they take advantage of the poor, but that doesn’t mean it is impossible to get rich without violating moral law. Especially in these days, it is possible for one intellectual or entertainment product, like a book or a movie or a song, to be sold for a very fair price to millions of people.
 
I don’t thing so especially if it’s debt that’s beyond your control. Say you’re doing well getting by paycheck to paycheck but just make enough to pay the bills but not enough to save anything then all of a sudden your car needs costly repairs you don’t have the savings because you only make enough just to get by but you need a car to get to work to make money to live on. So what do you do? Not fixing the car isn’t an option because you need it to get to work not all place have public transportation??? Another example might be you have a little savings but every time you save you end up spending it on some emergincy like a trip to urgent care or what have you. Some people do spend too much but the majority of folks I know in debt are in debt through no fault of their own. Some just lost their job and fell behind but still had to buy food and pay bills. Others took pay cuts demanded by their companies or took lesser paying jobs because that’s all that was available. It’s a tough world out their these days.:rolleyes:
 
Ophelia23 said:
😦 I wish my 18 year old self have a clue of what student loan debt really meant in the real world. I thought I would be able to pay it off easy. Now my family can hardly afford to have another child because we have monthly payments of roughly $500. :banghead: I can honestly say it is my biggest regret of all time.
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I’m in the same boat as you. My husband and I both have huge amounts of student loan debt and it causes me heart palpitations on a daily basis. I regret it every day of my life.
 
cshoremom said:
Is debt ( such as credit card debt) a sin?

I am referring to having credit cards and using them for “normal”, ( not wasteful) household purchases…paying the amount due,on time, but not paying 100% of the balance at the end of the month…
And then there’s car payments.That is a debt…As is a mortgage…

Pondering money management…
Click to expand...
My opinion that long term credit card debt is the either result of poor financial management or it is the result of out of the ordinary financial upsets. The first case is due to a lack in the practice of the virtue of prudence while the second is something that is mainly out of your control.

I would not spend too much time feeling guilty because of credit card debt but I would make sure that I have a real plan to get out of it as soon as possible. You should just do your best while making sure that you do not expose your family finances to some other risk just because you try to pay your debt faster than a reasonable schedule.
 
The Jewish had many rules regarding debt. Originally, debt was indentured slavery in the barrder system. Mortgages usually came with marriage. The story of Jacob & Sarah tell how his worked for the good of the family; introducing in-laws & inheritance. However, this was abused (Egyptians).

The Jewish were the few that believed in seventh rest. Now we are familiar most with taking the Sabath day off. His also included forgiving debt in the jubilee year (7th year); giving farming land rest in the seventh year and many more rests. So, we can see God revealed resting to be placed on the borrower and the lender. There must be a balance in this relationship to be Godly.
 
I don’t think borrowing money is a sin but I do think paying for consumer goods with a credit card and not paying off the debt can in some cases be like worshiping unnecessary consumer goods. I think most of us, including myself, could do a better job at forgoing Starbucks and then donating that money to the Church or to social justice causes. (In addition to building savings so that others do not need to pay to take care of our needs later).

Sincerely,

Maria1212
 
Very interesting viewpoints…and all of them have really helped me gain insight and feel a bit better…

Trying so hard to be responsible with our money…our household income isn’t all that great…and the expenses of 3 children, college, braces, medical needs, etc, etc are increasing…

Many thanks for your insightful posts!

Keep them coming!🙂
 
I just checked my credit card bill!😦
Time to cut some extravagant expenses.:o
 
Is putting a lot of your paycheck away in savings a sin? Again this answer would be no. It’s less prevalent, but being a cash hoarder is another form of financial symptom of sin like debt.

So, that’s a conclusion of mine that any such actions can be outward signs or symptoms that could in aggregate with other things indicate a disordered reaction to money. So, its not the outward act alone that is a sin, but it can indicate an inward disorder or propensity toward a sin.
 
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