Is democracy un-Christian?

[RCIA4]

OK, but again, is anyone here endorsing absolute monarchy? Our choices are not grim Hellenistic despotism or democracy; that’s a false equivalency. The historical norm is a restrained and subsidiarist monarchy (in fact, even inherited monarchy is a relative aberration – kings were more frequently elected, and this was the case in England up until the Norman conquest).

I find very objectionable the claim that monarchs make poor Christians. It may be true of individual kings but on the whole, European monarchy was a very pious and holy time, especially compared to the rank degeneracy of today. And it is even more true of the Byzantines, who recognized even less church-state distinction than we do but were even more holy and pious, right up until their conquest. This is a claim simply belied by all the historical evidence.

Good thing there’s a little thing in this country called a Constitution created by the League of the Godless our* founding fathers* who were incidentally all deists, quakers, and unitarian universalists

 

[sw85]

Good thing there’s a little thing in this country called a Constitution created by the League of the Godless our* founding fathers* who were incidentally all deists, quakers, and unitarian universalists

Whether or not such is “good” is precisely what’s at issue here.

 

[Tenofovir]

Good thing there’s a little thing in this country called a Constitution created by the League of the Godless our* founding fathers* who were incidentally all deists, quakers, and unitarian universalists

Don’t make an idol of that Constitution of yours the way many people do. It’s a piece of paper. Even if you say it can’t be changed there are ways to change it. America could even reject the Constitution at some point or another entirely, if most people so feel. People have rejected God, and surely God is more important than a constitution. Revolutions have occurred causing 180 degree changes in government and politics.

It’s good you have a Constitution, but it can’t defend and enforce itself. It depends on the people who elect the government.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

For democracy to fail, all we need is for good men to do nothing.

tartarus.org/martin/essays/burkequote.html

When alleged-Christians sit back and let others do the heavy lifting, THAT is when democracy fails.

You have to participate.

Democracy requires a HUGE amount of “hands on maintenance”.

Otherwise, the … atheists … will carry the day. They, the … atheists … show up at the meetings and write the agenda and do the voting.

So, if you are apathetic and let someone else do the work, then they will carry the day.

Democracy is not so much un-Christian as it is reliant on the work of the people … the essence of Democracy.

Which is why the United States was established as a Republic.

To protect us from the potential for the abuses that a tiny vocal minority can inflict when the majority choose to sit back and do nothing.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

There are countries with history of democracy almost as old as America with Catholicism as state religion. A State religion need not mean that we force others to be Catholics, but we recognise the role of Roman Catholicism in the founding of our country, its role in the history of our state and the current importance of it for most of our citizens. That’s all.

We don’t denigrate it to some personal conscience thing and an hour a day on Sundays.

And there is often a Church tax in states with Catholicism (or any Christian religion/denom.) as the official religion. (At least then you could be certain some of your taxes were being put to good use .)

 

[WelleHerde]

While it is true that some popes, such as John Paul II, were supporters
of democracy, these were his personal political views and are not infallible
Teachings of the Church!
Democracy is not really a good term though, because he supported is
working for the Common Good and peaceful efforts to escape oppression.

Bear in mind, there would have been no Soviet Union or Bloc had it not been for the
abolition of the Russian monarchy, no Nazi régime but for the establishment of the Weimar Republic. (Although the later stages of the German Empire are certainly nothing to boast about!)
The reality is that the absence of monarchy has done more evil than good, however difficult that may be for protestant-Catholics to accept.

Democracy is built on pride and submission to one’s whims.
Monarchy is built on submission to a higher authority.

And the Judges were appointed by God Himself, as were the kings of Israel.
A pathetic defence of democracy, but a decent one of theocracy!

Where are all those saintly politicians?
Thomas More was a monarchist!

Many Blessed and Saints were monarchs.
To my knowledge, the most recent beatification of a monarch was
Blessed Charles I of Austria in 2004.
And it is not only monarchs, but members of Royal families who have often been named saints.

 

[Vouthon]

Democracy is built on pride and submission to one’s whims.
Monarchy is built on submission to a higher authority.

I’m afraid that I disagree

Democracy is not “submission to one’s whims”. Democracy, of the parliamentary kind advocated by modern Western nations, is submission to the representative leaders of a party which one has elected into office for a period of time, and the MP’s of all parties which the general public has voted into Parliament and usually decided that they want to govern their constituencies/regions (in local elections as well). This system can and does work alongside symbolic monarchy in many countries, for example in my own - the United Kingdom.

Now “absolute monarchy”, as opposed to constitutional monarchy, is blind submission to a single fallible human being who was neither placed their by God nor by the will of the governed within his nation. That Monarch has no legitimacy, and yet he exalts himself above his peers and subordinates their opinions and rights to his, as if he were superior to other human beings. This is the manner of rule in countries such as Saudi Arabia. Absolute monarchy makes an idol and a cult of personality out of fallible human beings.

The only true King is Jesus Christ, and his “monarchy” is a kingdom of the soul, and his Reign on Earth is conducted through his Church, which is His Mystical Body, and the Church is separate from the earthly, political sphere.

The modern Catholic Church is very solidly pro-democracy. In South Korea, for example, where Christianity is now the dominant religion and Catholicism the largest denomination, the Catholic Church is revered by the general public because it played a fundamental and integral role in the democratization of the Korean Republic in the wake of the military dictatorships of the 1960s and 80s. The Catholic Church in South Korea, is held up as the harbinger and brave defender of democracy in the country.

“Traditionalist” Catholics who yearn after the days when corrupt, worldly Middle Age monarchies ruled over the weary peoples of Europe - kingdoms which very rarely followed or lived by Catholic principles as evidenced by the Spanish Inquisition under the truly delightful Isabella - are damaging the profound social message of the Catholic Church in the Third Millenium in its mission of building a Civilisation of Love and spreading the Gospel message.

 

[RCIA4]

The only valid government is one with RCIA4 as perpetual dictator (with my submission to and with the authorization of the Holy Father)! :thumbsup:

 

[Vouthon]

.

Bear in mind, there would have been no Soviet Union or Bloc had it not been for the
abolition of the Russian monarchy, no Nazi régime but for the establishment of the Weimar Republic. (Although the later stages of the German Empire are certainly nothing to boast about!)
The reality is that the absence of monarchy has done more evil than good, however difficult that may be for protestant-Catholics to accept.

Excuse me, my dear brother in Christ, but who exactly are “Protestant-Catholics”? That is oxymoronic, since there is surely no such thing, unless you mean High Anglicans/Episcopalians who are Catholic in terms of theology while nominally Protestants, or rather they are grouped within the Protestant demonination according to many.

One cannot be a “Protestant Catholic”. Have I misunderstood you?

 

[Vouthon]

Where are all those saintly politicians?
Thomas More was a monarchist!

Try Blessed Blessed Alberto Marvelli

vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20040905_marvelli_en.html

From the Vatican website’s biography of him:

"…Alberto did not belong to any party at first, but joined the Christian Democrats after the war and became an active member of the Executive Committee. He understood politics as an important service of faith and justice to society.

He was one of the most popular candidates of the Christian Democratic Party and was respected by all, even by his political adversaries, the Communists, whose ideology he openly criticized; they acknowledged his honesty and profound dedication to the well-being of the community.

On the evening of 5 October 1946, as Alberto was cycling to attend a meeting for the local elections, for which he was a candidate, he was run over by an army truck and died a few hours later without regaining consciousness. He was 28 years old.

The scheduled elections were held as news of his death spread throughout the city, and many citizens decided to vote for him just the same. His mother, however, was elected in his place…"

…Is that “saintly politician” enough for you?

 

[WelleHerde]

Protestant-Catholic, that is someone who protests the Truth of monarchy.
If people follow God and the Church, forms of government don’t really matter.

 

[WelleHerde]

That’s one…

 

[WelleHerde]

Try Blessed Blessed Alberto Marvelli

That’s one… Thanks!

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Protestant-Catholic, that is someone who protests the Truth of monarchy.
If people follow God and the Church, forms of government don’t really matter.

Truth of monarchy???

I don’t mind a monarchy if the king/queen is a devout Catholic. In fact, a monarchy would be best in that situation. That’s why some periods in the Middle Ages were great times for the Church. But if a monarch isn’t a devout Catholic, we have a problem. The issue is a monarchy is very inconsistent. The father can be a great king, and the son can be a really bad king. One century great, one century cr*p. With a democracy, the leader of the country is consistent with what the people want. If something goes bad, they have only themselves to blame. If the people are devout Catholics (as a whole), then a democracy/republic should be the best form of government out there, because the government would always do things in favor of the Church, because the elected officials would be people elected by the Catholics, and they would be elected because of their views that are in favor of the Church. If a government isn’t Catholic, then it doesn’t make a huge difference what form of government. But I still say democracy is the best. Look at Turkey, the only democratic Muslim nation. I’d say it’s a lot better than the rest of them (although it still has a long ways to go with regards to freedom of the press). But the Church doesn’t favor one form over the other, as long as the end result is good.

 

[sw85]

Now “absolute monarchy”, as opposed to constitutional monarchy, is blind submission to a single fallible human being who was neither placed their by God nor by the will of the governed within his nation. That Monarch has no legitimacy, and yet he exalts himself above his peers and subordinates their opinions and rights to his, as if he were superior to other human beings. This is the manner of rule in countries such as Saudi Arabia. Absolute monarchy makes an idol and a cult of personality out of fallible human beings.

While I have previously said I regard absolute monarchy as suboptimal, it is simply not true that it has no claim to legitimacy. All authority is legitimate simply by virtue of establishment. Submission to civil authority is a moral good regardless of its form.

Saying monarchies are NECESSARILY illegitimate is simply false and frankly contrary to the Church’s teachings. The Vatican itself is a monarchy of sorts. And as has been said, the fact that monarchical societies have produced thousands of saints and great theologians and other religious thinkers while democratic societies have produced comparatively fewer (despite enjoying greatly superior numbers population-wise) is evidence that democracies are not in fact all that conducive to holy life.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

As someone once said - “Capitalism is only good for those at the top.” General living standards for the majority of the population have decreased since modern capitalism.

Compare American living standards with living standards in non-capitalist countries.

Compare living standards between North Korea and South Korea.

Compare living standards between groups living on the island of Hispaniola: Haiti versus Dominican Republic.

 

[vera_dicere]

I think democracy is un-Christian if its in a non-Christain country, or in a country that refuses to acknowledge Christian value.

Imagine how great democracy would be if the people voted in favour, en masse, to protect the unborn, the elderly, to ensure everyone had an education and healthcare. What a great example that would be.

Democracy if we’re just talking about people all voting is good - as long as every individual is voting morally - and I mean to God’s laws, not some man made, secular, moral relatism rubbish.

 

[WelleHerde]

Truth of monarchy???

My apologies
That was a sort of reference to this:
“I write by the light of two eternal truths: religion and monarchy,
those twin essentials affirmed by contemporary events, and towards which
every intelligent author should seek to direct our country.”
– Honoré de Balzac, 1842

I don’t mind a monarchy if the king/queen is a devout Catholic. In fact, a monarchy would be best in that situation. That’s why some periods in the Middle Ages were great times for the Church. But if a monarch isn’t a devout Catholic, we have a problem.

Anytime someone isn’t a devout Catholic is a problem! I haven’t even been received yet… Please pray for me, brother
Be sure you have my prayers. I’ll send them up to St. Wenceslaus, (former)Duke of Bohemia for you!
And that goes for rest of you, too!

Although, I must admit, that I sometimes feel awkward praying for someone from a forum post… It’s like: “And Lord, please bless robottface_hockeyfan52. In your Son’s glorious name I pray, Amen.”

I actually prayed to Charlemagne, to ask the Lord to grant me a sufficient bit of beard…
Strangely enough, I really do believe that having a beard could help me to better seek and serve the Lord! :yup:
I realize that might seem odd to some people…
Sorry, I digress…

Henri, Grand Duke of Luxembourg and King Baudouin I of Belgium are great examples of modern Catholic monarchs who actually stood up for their Catholic convictions(at great risk to their positions).

 

[WelleHerde]

I think democracy is un-Christian if its in a non-Christain country, or in a country that refuses to acknowledge Christian value.

Imagine how great democracy would be if the people voted in favour, en masse, to protect the unborn, the elderly, to ensure everyone had an education and healthcare. What a great example that would be.

Democracy if we’re just talking about people all voting is good - as long as every individual is voting morally - and I mean to God’s laws, not some man made, secular, moral relatism rubbish.

Great post!

 

[Tenofovir]

I think democracy is un-Christian if its in a non-Christain country, or in a country that refuses to acknowledge Christian value.

But a non-Christian dictatorship or a republic or a monarchy won’t be different. Your problem really is not with the form of government but the decision makers. If they’re Christian, they’re good, if not, they’re bad.

Imagine how great democracy would be if the people voted in favour, en masse, to protect the unborn, the elderly, to ensure everyone had an education and healthcare. What a great example that would be.

People vote according to what they consider is more important to them. Since easy sex and subsequent abortion is more important to people than personal responsibility to God and fellow man, it follows that they’ll vote pro-choice. Your problem is with the peoples’ weird system of priorities here. As Chesterton said - we walk upside down (to paraphrase him).