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seeker63
Guest
Ah, but why would my Guardian Angels call me “Daddy”?
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loyola_rambler
Guest
Hmmm…intriguing. Maybe you need to work that one through and see where it leads you!
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darcee
Guest
you know sometimes people just say “off” things. Like “I prayed and it cured my depression therefore everyone who is depressed just needs to pray.” There is nothing wrong with witnessing a healing you have experienced, nor is there anything wrong with recommending prayer, the wrongness comes in the assumption that all cases are the same and seemingly faulting others for not having the same experience as yourself. But this at most an error of enthusiasm and naivety.
I am convinced that people mostly mean well when they fall into this mental trap of over-generalizing their experiences. They honestly think they are being helpful. So it seems wrong to worry about how offended one has been by the “insensitivity” of such advice. While it is insensitive, in that it does not display an understanding of the realities that others face, it is not insensitive in a cruel or purposefully hurtful sense.
-D
I am convinced that people mostly mean well when they fall into this mental trap of over-generalizing their experiences. They honestly think they are being helpful. So it seems wrong to worry about how offended one has been by the “insensitivity” of such advice. While it is insensitive, in that it does not display an understanding of the realities that others face, it is not insensitive in a cruel or purposefully hurtful sense.
-D
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LabChick
Guest
I read last year about a epidemiological study that examined the genetic-by-environment interraction in depression. It followed a sample of just over 1000 children from age 3 to mid-30’s. The researchers compared the incidence of depression in the study with the presence of the serotonin transport protein in its long or short form. Essentially, people with the short form were more likely (predisposed) to develop depression.
Depression “runs” in my family, which leads me to suspect, at least partially, a genetic basis.
For those who want a reference, here it is: Moderation by a Ploymorphism in the 5-HTT Gene. Caspi, Sugden, et. al. (18 July 2003). Science, Vol 301, pp. 386-389.
sciencemag.com
Depression “runs” in my family, which leads me to suspect, at least partially, a genetic basis.
For those who want a reference, here it is: Moderation by a Ploymorphism in the 5-HTT Gene. Caspi, Sugden, et. al. (18 July 2003). Science, Vol 301, pp. 386-389.
sciencemag.com
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SHEMP
Guest
If depression is a sin, now that is really depressing!
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Depression is no more a sin than are migraines. Both deal with something being not quite right in the brain. One results in physical pain, the other emotional.
People who consider depression a sin against hope are speaking out of ignorance.
In Christ,
Nancy
People who consider depression a sin against hope are speaking out of ignorance.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
This is true. It’s no more true that one can pray onesself out of depression than one can pray onesself out of cancer. While, to be sure, some ARE miraculously healed, it’s wrong to assume that that sort of miraculous healing is available to everyone just for the asking.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Mandi
Guest
Of this the Lord complains by the mouth of his prophet: “Is not”, he says, “the Lord in sion?..Why then have they provoked me to wrath with their idols?..Is there no balm in Galaad? or is there no physician there? Why then is not the wound of the daughter of my people closed?” —Jer., viii. 19, 22. Am I not in Sion? Why then do men provoke me to anger by recurring to creatures, which they convert into idols by placing in them all their hopes? Do they seek a remedy for their miseries? Why do they not seek it in Galaad, a mountain full of balsamic ointments, which signify the divine mercy? There they can find the physician and the remedy of all their evils. Why then, says the Lord, do your wounds remain open? Why are they not healed? It is because you have recourse not to me, but to creatures, and because you confide in them, and not in me.
The temptations of the Devil, the persecutions of men, the adversity which we suffer in this world, are not evils: they are, on the contarary, advantages, if we know how to make of them the use which God wishes, who sends or permits them for our welfare. They detach our affections from this Earth, and inspire a disgust for this world, by making us feel bitterness and thorns even in its honours, its riches, its delights, and amusements. The Lord permits all these apparent evils, that we may take away our affections from fading goods, in which we meet with so many dangers of perdition, and that we may seek to unite ourselves with him who alone can make us happy.
Our error and mistake is, that when we find ourselves harassed by infirmities, by proverty, by persecutions, and by such tribulations, instead of having recourse to the Lord, we turn to men, and place our confidence in their assitance, and thus draw upon ourselves the malediction of God, who says: “Cursed be the man who trusted in man”—Jer., xvii.5. Th Lord does not forbid us, in our afflictions and dangers, to have recourse to human means; but he curses those who place their whole trust in them. He wishes us to have recourse to himself before all others, and to place our only hope in him, that we may also centre in him all our love.
From the writings of St. Allphonsus Liguori
The temptations of the Devil, the persecutions of men, the adversity which we suffer in this world, are not evils: they are, on the contarary, advantages, if we know how to make of them the use which God wishes, who sends or permits them for our welfare. They detach our affections from this Earth, and inspire a disgust for this world, by making us feel bitterness and thorns even in its honours, its riches, its delights, and amusements. The Lord permits all these apparent evils, that we may take away our affections from fading goods, in which we meet with so many dangers of perdition, and that we may seek to unite ourselves with him who alone can make us happy.
Our error and mistake is, that when we find ourselves harassed by infirmities, by proverty, by persecutions, and by such tribulations, instead of having recourse to the Lord, we turn to men, and place our confidence in their assitance, and thus draw upon ourselves the malediction of God, who says: “Cursed be the man who trusted in man”—Jer., xvii.5. Th Lord does not forbid us, in our afflictions and dangers, to have recourse to human means; but he curses those who place their whole trust in them. He wishes us to have recourse to himself before all others, and to place our only hope in him, that we may also centre in him all our love.
From the writings of St. Allphonsus Liguori
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Lance
Guest
Depression is no more a sin than cancer or heart attack.
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baltobetsy
Guest
There was once a man whose house was threatened by flood waters. The water rushed by in the street as he sat on his porch and prayed to God for assistance. A boat went by, but the man refused to get in, because God was going to help him.
The water rose to the level of the second floor, and the man watched as another boat went by, again refusing to get in because God was going to help him.
The water rose so high the man was forced to get up on the roof of the house. A helicopter came by and a rope was lowered to the man, be he refused to take it, because God was going to help him.
Eventually, the man drowned. When he came face to face with God, he demanded to know why God hadn’t helped him. God said to him, “I sent you two boats and a helicopter - what more did you want?”
This old story illustrates well the fact that God often uses creatures to accomplish His works. He does not often directly intervene in our lives to solve our problems and cure our ills. More likely, when the time is right, He will direct us to the doctor or whoever He has chosen to be His instrument, who will prescribe the treatment that God knows will be our cure. We do well to trust both God and the doctor who acts in His place.
I think some people make a mistake in reading some of the spiritual writings of the saints. What was written primarily for professed religious who are far advanced in the spiritual life, referring to the cure of spiritual problems and sins, is read by lay people just starting to live an intense life of faith who are likely to misinterpret what is written to apply to common issues in everyday life. Things get over-spiritualized, and the ordinary ways of handling problems are discounted, even though those are part of God’s plan.
Betsy
The water rose to the level of the second floor, and the man watched as another boat went by, again refusing to get in because God was going to help him.
The water rose so high the man was forced to get up on the roof of the house. A helicopter came by and a rope was lowered to the man, be he refused to take it, because God was going to help him.
Eventually, the man drowned. When he came face to face with God, he demanded to know why God hadn’t helped him. God said to him, “I sent you two boats and a helicopter - what more did you want?”
This old story illustrates well the fact that God often uses creatures to accomplish His works. He does not often directly intervene in our lives to solve our problems and cure our ills. More likely, when the time is right, He will direct us to the doctor or whoever He has chosen to be His instrument, who will prescribe the treatment that God knows will be our cure. We do well to trust both God and the doctor who acts in His place.
I think some people make a mistake in reading some of the spiritual writings of the saints. What was written primarily for professed religious who are far advanced in the spiritual life, referring to the cure of spiritual problems and sins, is read by lay people just starting to live an intense life of faith who are likely to misinterpret what is written to apply to common issues in everyday life. Things get over-spiritualized, and the ordinary ways of handling problems are discounted, even though those are part of God’s plan.
Betsy
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NM2
Guest
And taking an SSRI or other anti-depressant to try to resolve the chemical imbalance in one’s brain is no different from a diabetic taking insulin to try to resolve the chemical imbalance in his blood.
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loyola_rambler
Guest
My husband is fond of telling students that a quote without context is intellectual masturbation. As much as you’d like to think this supports the position that depression is a sin, it bears noting that this isn’t the malady that Alphonsus writes about. More important to know is that Alphonsus himself suffered from depression for years. It was so profound that it caused him to step down from his position as bishop. In spite of that, he remained anything but sinful…to the point that he was not only canonized, but also made a doctor of the Church. Would the Church, well aware of Alphonsus’ depression, seriously canonize him if they thought depression were a sign of desperate sin? No, obviously not. Furthermore, he personally sought treatment from physicians of the day.
Most importantly, these are the isolated writings of one man. But they are not the complete discussion on the matter of the relationship of man with God on the issue of health. The Catechism of the Church (odd little document, well worth reading) and the documents of several popes (you remember, the ones who bear the title Vicar of Christ), not to mention Christ’s own words on the matter in the Beatitudes and the compassion He showed everyone who was sick or “poor in spirit”.
Of course, we could also imagine that if depression were truly a sin, then the Vatican would mandate that all Catholic hospitals forego the Mental Health unit in lieu of a good exorcist or “laying of the hands”. But that’s not the case. The Church and its hospitals treat depression as an illness…just what it is.
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Teresa9
Guest
Very well said loyola, I looked in again to see what has been said in this thread and I am amazed people are still quibbling this matter. What breaks the heart? What brings the spirit low, but sorrow for wrongs or mourning. What makes a person depressed is life or a medical matter of hormones, either way it isn’t a sin. I would be more worried about people who face extreme adversity and don’t become low in mood/ depressed. Your tears are tears of sorrow and Christ cried them Himself, for Lazarous, for His passion in the garden of Gethsemane, and probably other times too I can’t think of just now.Suffering whether of mind or body is not a sin and if people can’t believe this, go and ask your Priest and they’ll tell you the same. Peace to all of you xxx
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watergirl
Guest
As a person suffering with depression for 6 years now, and going on and off meds, I don’t see how this can possibly be a sin. At one point in time, I went of my medication and told my doctor that I was going to pray myself through this current episode and trust that God would heal me. Well she told me that is fine but sometimes God wants us to help ourselves when we can. After much prayer I decided to go on the meds and began to feel a little better everyday. In my case, I was not “depressed”, but had problem with anger and rage. Of course this was almost always directed at my husband, who had done nothing to offend me. Poor man. I would often verbally attack anyone who rubbed me the wrong way. Anyway, the meds make me a much easier person to be with and I can stand my own company for a change.
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Evan
Guest
When searching for growth in your spiritual life, you may encounter a feeling of depression.
The first step in discernment is to rule out the chemical/clinical depression.
AFTER that, you and your spiritual director would look for influence from the Spirit of Light (Satan) to determine if you have somehow taken something good and exagerated it to something bad (like 15 minutes of prayer being good and 50 minutes is too much for you at this point in your spiritual life)
Finally, it may be a Dark Night. Many saints have experienced this: John of the Cross, Terisa of Avila, Blessed Teresa of Calcutta.
A dark night however only feels like emptiness==depression, it may in fact be a affective consolation (an effective desolation) in which God has given you a desolate feeling in order to allow you spirit to grow in love without the ‘candy’ of a feeling of consolation.
In this case, the depression would not be a sin, but a reward from God as part of your journey to the Unitive Way.
The first step in discernment is to rule out the chemical/clinical depression.
AFTER that, you and your spiritual director would look for influence from the Spirit of Light (Satan) to determine if you have somehow taken something good and exagerated it to something bad (like 15 minutes of prayer being good and 50 minutes is too much for you at this point in your spiritual life)
Finally, it may be a Dark Night. Many saints have experienced this: John of the Cross, Terisa of Avila, Blessed Teresa of Calcutta.
A dark night however only feels like emptiness==depression, it may in fact be a affective consolation (an effective desolation) in which God has given you a desolate feeling in order to allow you spirit to grow in love without the ‘candy’ of a feeling of consolation.
In this case, the depression would not be a sin, but a reward from God as part of your journey to the Unitive Way.
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Mandi
Guest
loyola rambler:
"By bearing patiently with the pains of sickness, a great, and perhaps the greater, part of the crown which is prepared for us in Heaven, is completed. The sick sometimes complain that in sickness they can do nothing; but they err; for, in their infimities they can do all things, by accepting their sufferings with peace and resignation. “The cross of Christ”, says St. Chrysostom, “is the key of Paradise” – hom. in Luc. de vir.
St Fancis de Sales used to say: "To suffer constantly for Jesus is the science of the saints; we shall thus soon become saints:. It is by sufferings that God proves his servants, and finds them worthy of himself. “Whom”, says St. Paul, “the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth” --Heb., xii6. hence Jesus Christ once said to St. Teresa: “Be assured that the souls dearest to my father are those who suffer the greatest afflictions”.
To holy souls the most severe afflictions are the temptations by which the Devil impels them to offend God: but they who bear these temptations with patience, and banish them by turning to God for help, shall acquire great merit.
For the Second Sunday of Advent - “On the advantages of tribulations” – St. Alphonsus Liguori
This is NOT out of context if you would like me to type the complete sermon, I’d be pleased!
This quote is not out of context it is from a his sermon For the Third Sunday of Advent “On the means necessary for salvation”. There is hardly a serman wrtten by St. Alphonsus Liguori that does not deal with this issue - It is not hard to believe that depression was an affliction of his.
Many Saints suffered from the affliction of depression I would guess because they also suffered from beeing too scrupulous. And what made them Saints is that they fought the good fight and WON!. In fact the closer one comes to God the greater their affliction. It is conquering these afflictions that made them saints.
"By bearing patiently with the pains of sickness, a great, and perhaps the greater, part of the crown which is prepared for us in Heaven, is completed. The sick sometimes complain that in sickness they can do nothing; but they err; for, in their infimities they can do all things, by accepting their sufferings with peace and resignation. “The cross of Christ”, says St. Chrysostom, “is the key of Paradise” – hom. in Luc. de vir.
St Fancis de Sales used to say: "To suffer constantly for Jesus is the science of the saints; we shall thus soon become saints:. It is by sufferings that God proves his servants, and finds them worthy of himself. “Whom”, says St. Paul, “the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth” --Heb., xii6. hence Jesus Christ once said to St. Teresa: “Be assured that the souls dearest to my father are those who suffer the greatest afflictions”.
To holy souls the most severe afflictions are the temptations by which the Devil impels them to offend God: but they who bear these temptations with patience, and banish them by turning to God for help, shall acquire great merit.
For the Second Sunday of Advent - “On the advantages of tribulations” – St. Alphonsus Liguori
This is NOT out of context if you would like me to type the complete sermon, I’d be pleased!
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darcee
Guest
Mandi,
Are you trying to say that seeking medical attention for depression is an afront to God?
-D
Are you trying to say that seeking medical attention for depression is an afront to God?
-D
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loyola_rambler
Guest
If you read for comprehension, you’ll note that I never said it was “out of context”…I said it was without context. In otherwords, you failed to frame the quote that you cut and pasted and made no relationship between Alphonsus and the discussion of depression. This is a very generic sermon and not specific to the topic at hand. Further, it is important to mention (ie intellectual integrity) that Alphonsus not only suffered from depression, but he also sought help from physicians of his day. Failing to do that may give you some satisfaction from the use of this text, but it does nothing for the rest of us…hence, intellectual masturbation…you’re the only one who’s gotten anything out of the text.
Frankly, you have yet to show that the Church of Rome believes depression is a sin. In fact, we’ve shown significant documentation from the Church’s own website that completely refutes your position. You can cut and paste ad nauseum, but the quotes you’re tossing about are used in a manner called “prooftexting” which simply means you’re pulling isolated text and attempting to twist its intent to meet another argument, making it an illegitimate form of debate.
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Mandi
Guest
loyola rambler:
Because of the authority and truthfulness of God. This tells us that supernatural faith is based on the word of God coming to us through His Church. God knows everything, and therefore, He cannot be deceived nor mistaken. He is truth itself, and, therefore, He cannot and will not deceive us.
Supernatural means “completely above the natural ability or capacity of man”;springing from the power of divine grace and entirely above and beyond all natural powers.
And as generic as this sounds, it is the simple truth, our life, and our breath, our every sense of being lies in our salvation. The Catholic Church was not made for theologians, it was made for the simple.
I find it very interesting that depression seems to be the “new” disease of our time! Practically everybody I know takes medication to fight this. My girlfriend calls them her “happy pills” and yet with more and more people taking “meds” to help cure this, the suicide rate has sky rocketed.
I do not recommend anyone on medication to stop taking thier pills and find God because they simply do not possess what is needed and that is “supernatural faith” we define "supernatural faith as a theological virtue, a free gift of God, consisting in an infused supernatural habit or permanent capacity for believing, by which man is disposed to accept as true everything God has revealed solely because of the authority and truthfulness of God who reveals it. In addition to natural habits or virtues, there are the supernatural virtues which enable us to act in a supernatural manner. Acts done through their motivation are supernatural acts.
In other words if you are looking to man for the cures of what ails you than you do not possess supernatural faith. It is also interesting to note here that if you want to also compare this to physical health - there are many, many Saints who refused to seek medical attention - because they possessed supernatural faith and wanted to suffer for their eternal reward. Their desire was not earth bound but heaven.
I’m sorry I thought the quote was self explanitory!
Because of the authority and truthfulness of God. This tells us that supernatural faith is based on the word of God coming to us through His Church. God knows everything, and therefore, He cannot be deceived nor mistaken. He is truth itself, and, therefore, He cannot and will not deceive us.
Supernatural means “completely above the natural ability or capacity of man”;springing from the power of divine grace and entirely above and beyond all natural powers.
And as generic as this sounds, it is the simple truth, our life, and our breath, our every sense of being lies in our salvation. The Catholic Church was not made for theologians, it was made for the simple.
I find it very interesting that depression seems to be the “new” disease of our time! Practically everybody I know takes medication to fight this. My girlfriend calls them her “happy pills” and yet with more and more people taking “meds” to help cure this, the suicide rate has sky rocketed.
I do not recommend anyone on medication to stop taking thier pills and find God because they simply do not possess what is needed and that is “supernatural faith” we define "supernatural faith as a theological virtue, a free gift of God, consisting in an infused supernatural habit or permanent capacity for believing, by which man is disposed to accept as true everything God has revealed solely because of the authority and truthfulness of God who reveals it. In addition to natural habits or virtues, there are the supernatural virtues which enable us to act in a supernatural manner. Acts done through their motivation are supernatural acts.
In other words if you are looking to man for the cures of what ails you than you do not possess supernatural faith. It is also interesting to note here that if you want to also compare this to physical health - there are many, many Saints who refused to seek medical attention - because they possessed supernatural faith and wanted to suffer for their eternal reward. Their desire was not earth bound but heaven.
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darcee
Guest
You must not really mean the above.
No one in their right mine would so arrogant and self righteous as to claim that anyone who is on medication for depression must lack faith in God.
No one in the right mind would actually say that if you use modern medicine that you do not believe.
God well might have a miracle in store for the depression sufferer. And He just might use the chemist to perform it. He might well have a miracle for someone suffering from cancer and the surgeon will be involved. Is it not a sin to test God – to not do what you can and use those things God has provided in a vain attempt to prove Him?
Are you REALLY meaning to say the above? Are you really saying that seeking medical help is somehow an affront to God?
-D
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