Is Dhmini style law justifiable?

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It’s mostly cool … until

Kind of a tepid rebuke isn’t it? With all that Papal power, one would think that the absurdity of Torquemada and the excesses of the Inquisition would have been condemned and forbidden. Instead … 🤷
“All that papal power” – I don’t think the pope was as powerful as you are thinking. Within a few decades Spain invaded Italy and sacked Rome, so I don’t think the balance of power was on Rome’s side at that point.
And after that,he so-called “time line” goes kind of flat. There’s really nothing there at all beyond Catholic resistance to Protestant domination. 🤷
It’s not that there’s nothing there, it’s that it’s all in Latin and I don’t know enough Latin to translate it. (I made this timeline myself.) Official Catholic documents have been published in Latin for more than a millenia, and only recently did they get an official arm for translating them into other languages; before recent times, we have to rely on modern translators being interested enough in the material to translate it, and there are simply more scholars interested in translating medieval-era official literature than in translating official literature from the early modern era. But in light of the fact that the Renaissance brought a surge in modern sensibilities, and many Renaissance contributors were popes, I would expect to find more examples of modern-like sentiments on religious liberty from that period, not less…it’s just that they’re all in Latin!
 
“All that papal power” – I don’t think the pope was as powerful as you are thinking. Within a few decades Spain invaded Italy and sacked Rome, so I don’t think the balance of power was on Rome’s side at that point.
Politics politics politics. And, IIRC, the “sacking of Rome” was done by mutinous troops. Same as was the sacking of Constantinople during the Crusades. IOW, it wasn’t official. Officially, the Papal States were “off limits” so, yeah, all that Papal power … the one thing it couldn’t control was a bunch of rogues.
It’s not that there’s nothing there, it’s that it’s all in Latin and I don’t know enough Latin to translate it. (I made this timeline myself.) …
Good effort (I mean the homemade timeline), but I really don’t think there’d be much more of substance in the gap. Except, perhaps, for some rather unpleasant incidents in not-lamented Papal States.
 
Politics politics politics. And, IIRC, the “sacking of Rome” was done by mutinous troops.
Somebody knows their way around Wikipedia. But the attacks on Italy were not unofficial – they were a direct attack on the Papal States. Pope Clement tried to drive Charles V out of Italy, and Charles V fought back. The Church hadn’t had secular power over Christendom since the Council of Florence dissolved in 1449. Europe no longer was what it was in 1215 and you can’t expect the pope to have been able to just command the kings to do what he wanted and expect them to obey. (That, I think, is why the papal reforms of the Spanish Inquisition largely failed.)

Also, to get back more to the point, the same document I quoted above (where the Pope says we should be showing mercy and not punishment) goes on to declare that any Inquisition suspects can appeal the decisions of Torquemada et. al. and they will be heard by the Papal courts. That is a serious reform in line with the kind of power you are thinking should be there, though I don’t think Spain let it happen.
Good effort (I mean the homemade timeline), but I really don’t think there’d be much more of substance in the gap. Except, perhaps, for some rather unpleasant incidents in not-lamented Papal States.
I think there would be, because I already know of some papal documents that reflect modern (and Renaissance) ideas about human liberty and inalienable rights. For example, I could add a date for 1537, when Pope Paul III said: “We define and declare by these Our letters…that [American Indians] are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ; and that they may and should, freely and legitimately, enjoy their liberty and the possession of their property; nor should they be in any way enslaved; should the contrary happen, it shall be null and have no effect.”

Now that is almost what we would expect a modernist to say. If one were to assess the content of that document in terms of religious liberty, it would be fair to say that it declares that a person’s paganism doesn’t give them fewer rights than Christians, and, due to its reliance on the School of Salamanca, it’s fair to say that this bases the conception of liberty (including in religious affairs) in universal human nature.

After the 1500s we see the Church sending out missionaries to China, America, India, and the newly-Protestantized nations. I very much doubt that St. Isaac Jogues in America and St. Francis Xavier in China went about force-converting anybody, because they were severely outnumbered and would be killed if they tried. And I’ll bet that if you examine their writings, or the writings of the systematic theologians who discussed the Missions from a speculative level, they would tell you why – and it wouldn’t just be, “Because they would die.” It would be because faith is a free act, etc. Thus we may expect to find reflections during the 1600s and early 1700s as well.

In the 1800s you find men like St. John Henry Newman, who insisted on religious liberty and defended the Church’s traditional teaching on the subject when men were attacking the Church over the Syllabus of Errors, which seemed to condemn the idea. But the popes and saints of that time knew better, and no one doubts that once Pope Leo XIII came into office, we find ever more explicit commendations of ideas like religious liberty, social justice, etc. (In fact, he explicitly clarified that the Syllabus of Errors does not condemn rulers who allow religious liberty. And he was the immediate successor of the pope who initiated that controversy in the first place.)

In sum, I think if you examine the period between 1500 and 1800, there is ample material from which I would expect a Catholic defense of religious liberty (if only it were translated!), and there are certainly ample examples of it from 1800 forward.
 
As a Catholic you need to learn the truth of Christian history before you bat around the usual “Christians did it too thing”. First of all no where in the Church was there or is there a set of discriminatory legal codes that may be used against non-christians(unlike Islam and in the past Judaism). Second there are no historical examples of Church sanctioned mistreatment and murder of non-Christians solely on the bases of that groups belief system. The acts of monarchs and Protestants have all been labeled by many acts of the Church when they were not. Your history is anglophilic and inaccurate and as a Catholic you must learn the truth to counter these popular lies.
Did I at any stage claim that ‘The Church’ sanctioned or nodded through murder or mistreatment of non-Christians? Though I think the Church has been involved in the mistreatment of fellow ‘Christians’ and those deemed one way or another as heretic - reference the likes of the ‘Inquisition’.

I was referring to members who claimed to be Christian and were recognised as Catholic/Christian, and this includes, regrettably, clerics. In parts of the old Yugoslavia during WWII there was some decidedly non-Christian/Catholic ‘goings on’ in which Christian/Catholics up to the rank of senior cleric were involved directly or indirectly - in the case of an archbishop delivering a speech about someone up to his neck in horrific mass torture and killing as being a great patriot!

ps. Please try to be a little more objective about ‘Catholics’/‘Christians’ in history and to this day - ‘we’ are not all stain free saints - there has been much wrong doing by 'Catholic/Christians as individuals and as groups. Regrettably the Church has not always been openly condemnatory about such actions at the time.

pps. I believe a prior Pope a couple of decades back publically apologised on behalf of the Church about the way that Jews have been historically treated and demonised.

ppps. There are also sins of omission as well as commission don’t you know? Silence in many cases can reasonably be deemed as ‘consent’ or ‘approval’.
 
Is this a way of calling me an “anti-Semite” or are you refuting the history? You brought up the actions of Christians. I simply pointed out that this can be done by both sides. I am also addressing the diversion in this topic when it turned to the “evils” of Christians. The issue is Moslem codes against non-muslems. There is no Catholic parallel to this. Do you deny this or are you going to simply revert to inferring bigotry by putting your links to neo-Nazi sites? Please refer me to the Code of Canon law that directs Catholics to swindle, cheat, steal, and extort non-Christians. Please refer me to an encyclical by one Pope supporting the suppression of Jews any time in history.

I would point out that to this very day a Christian(nor Muslims for that matter) may not freely immigrate to Israel. This is a religion based rule to keep non-Jews out of Israel–no. Not too unlike your first post regarding what Christians “used” to do.
I wasn’t calling you an ‘anti-Semite’ (not that you would, of course, but if you went through my 7000 plus posts, you’d find that calling people ‘anti-Semites’ isn’t something I do - my references to anti-Semitism are more along the lines of “many people must loathe the Nazis because they gave good old-fashioned Jew-hating such a bad name”).

No, as dzheremi spotted, what I was doing is something that my German-Jewish and Italian-Jewish ancestors weren’t able to do - I was laughing at the whole ‘Prague Cemetery’ business of naughty Jews doing naughty things.

Every now and then people turn up and reveal all about the naughtiness of Jews and our very naughty Talmud and one knows where (in a generic sense) it all comes from and, from time to time, one of us Jews will go through the process of arguing with it. I’ve been here too long to be bothered, if you really wanted to know, you’re quite capable of going to a non ‘jewsarefartoonaughtyfortheworldtocopewith.com’ website and discovering the rebuttals for yourself but I expect that you’re not that interested.
 
We Jews are just too, too naughty for words as you can find out at www.youthoughtjewswerenaughtybuttheyremuchnaughtierthanthat.com and www.havealookatthestormfronttalmud.com and other well known fonts of knowledge about the general naughtiness of Jews.
Amen to that! Where’s the clapping emoticon when you need it?

Ah, I found it: :clapping:

Seriously, though, that was funny. 😃 Humour is the best antidote to those whose ideas on Christian-Jewish relations are still stuck around 1,000 or more years ago.
 
I wasn’t calling you an ‘anti-Semite’ (not that you would, of course, but if you went through my 7000 plus posts, you’d find that calling people ‘anti-Semites’ isn’t something I do - my references to anti-Semitism are more along the lines of “many people must loathe the Nazis because they gave good old-fashioned Jew-hating such a bad name”).

No, as dzheremi spotted, what I was doing is something that my German-Jewish and Italian-Jewish ancestors weren’t able to do - I was laughing at the whole ‘Prague Cemetery’ business of naughty Jews doing naughty things.

Every now and then people turn up and reveal all about the naughtiness of Jews and our very naughty Talmud and one knows where (in a generic sense) it all comes from and, from time to time, one of us Jews will go through the process of arguing with it. I’ve been here too long to be bothered, if you really wanted to know, you’re quite capable of going to a non ‘jewsarefartoonaughtyfortheworldtocopewith.com’ website and discovering the rebuttals for yourself but I expect that you’re not that interested.
That is exactly what you are doing (which you very well intend) by incorporating a neo-nazi website (storm front) into those email address. And you are still doing it by inferring my information comes from those sources. Why don’t you answer the question and show the examples that I asked for? After all the point of the whole thread had to do with religious bigotry in Islam as a part of their codified law. As usual it was hijacked with Christians did it too. But yet there are no real examples just assertions and “feelings”. In the end however we are not talking in some abstract way about something that was done 900 years ago we are talking about 2013 and in the 21st century. As a matter of religious doctrine muslims advocate the suppression of non-muslims as a matter of faith and canonical law. No one can point me to any source to justify the relativist argument diverting attention from the overt bigotry of Muslims. The Jews to this day still practice religious exclusion. In fact I do believe that Israel is in a perpetual state of war over just this very issue no matter how Jews and the international media wish to spin it.

AS an aside I find it very curious that if you mention historical Jewish transgression it is immediately labeled “hatred” and “bigotry”. Yet when Jews and fringe evangelicals wrongly accuse Pope Pius the XII of being a Nazi sympathizer and duplicitous in the murder of Jews it is some how not bigotry. It is equally curious when other insupportable and discredited slanders are leveled against the Church it is all in the name of discourse. What an absurd double standard we practice. I for one will not ever conceded the agitprop.
 
I love the thought process on these forums.

“Some Muslims want to institute Sharia with dhimmitude and the jizya today.”

“Yeah, well look what Christians did 500 years ago!”
 
I love the thought process on these forums.

“Some Muslims want to institute Sharia with dhimmitude and the jizya today.”

“Yeah, well look what Christians did 500 years ago!”
Absurd isn’t it.
 
That is exactly what you are doing (which you very well intend) by incorporating a neo-nazi website (storm front) into those email address.
Well known source of ‘information’ about the Talmud - hence my reference on a number of occasions on CAF to the ‘StormFront Talmud’.
And you are still doing it by inferring my information comes from those sources.
One becomes rather familiar with the use of words and the way certain arguments are phrased. While appreciating, of course, that there is considerable variety in ‘jewsareverynaughty’ world, the sources tend to be commonly-mined.
Why don’t you answer the question and show the examples that I asked for?
I think our attitudes to one another might let us down.
Yet when Jews and fringe evangelicals wrongly accuse Pope Pius the XII of being a Nazi sympathizer and duplicitous in the murder of Jews it is some how not bigotry.
Most I’ve ever said about Pius XII was that some of his policies were arguable.
I for one will not ever conceded the agitprop.
Just practice it.
 
Absurd isn’t it.
You asked earlier what have Papal approved actions have contributed to anti-Jewish actions. How about the expulsion of the Jews from Spain? I agree with you that there is a strong tendency of certain populations to shriek “anti-semitism” over any criticism of the Jews, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that all parties have been guilty of wrongs against the other. This includes Catholics.
 
I love the thought process on these forums.

“Some Muslims want to institute Sharia with dhimmitude and the jizya today.”

“Yeah, well look what Christians did 500 years ago!”
The Rome ghetto existed until 1870.
 
The moral of this forum is; don’t treat people differently because they have different Religions or cultures.

Dhimmi status does this, and we oppose it. Is there really anything else to talk about? What someone did in the past doesn’t make it okay now.
 
And the ghettoization of Palestinian Christians by Israel continues to this day. Bottom line, religious politics on all sides can lead to atrocities.
Are Christians in Israel ghettoised - I mean the word not in a slogan sense but in the sense of how the rules of ghettos like Rome and Venice worked?
 
The moral of this forum is; don’t treat people differently because they have different Religions or cultures.

Dhimmi status does this, and we oppose it. Is there really anything else to talk about? What someone did in the past doesn’t make it okay now.
Well, I joined the thread originally to make the point that it’s been variously tried (outside the Muslim world where the OP was talking of such policies being applied) and you just end up being loathed.
 
Well, I joined the thread originally to make the point that it’s been variously tried (outside the Muslim world where the OP was talking of such policies being applied) and you just end up being loathed.
Yeah, I hear ya.

Wherever it’s been tried it’s been wrong, and I would use that as evidence that it’s still wrong now in any Religion.

I know Catholics will blame the secular authorities and non-catholics will blame Catholics, but either way it wasn’t right and I think that’s the point of this thread.
 
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