Is dialogue with Islam possible? Yes, Vatican says

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islam is not monolithic in the sense that it has a centralized authority. so, however else you read it, the Vatican is not seeking dialogue with all of islam because that would be impossible and I am sure the Vatican understands that.

the dialogue the Vatican seeks is with muslims and indirectly with islam, at least in an understandable sense.
 
the Vatican’s immediate political goal (since it is a national government) is probably to reach an agreement on creating within islam a prohibition against the use of violence against innocent people.

from the religious perspective, the Chair of Peter always places first the salvation of souls. so, from that perspective at least, the objective is the salvation of souls.
 
the Vatican’s immediate political goal (since it is a national government) is probably to reach an agreement on creating within islam a prohibition against the use of violence against innocent people.

from the religious perspective, the Chair of Peter always places first the salvation of souls. so, from that perspective at least, the objective is the salvation of souls.
Somebody needs to convey the message to the suicide bombers.
 
Thx. I would be interested in your take on this analysis.
That’s going to take a while to read. I’ll get back to you.
Thx for your efforts.
I’ve scanned through all 10 or so pages (each of which would have 5-10 pages in print). This is not exactly an explanation of Islam; the Wiki article does a better job of that. But what this site does do is to attempt to prove Islam to be a false religion, based first of all on showing how Islam demands respect for the writings of the prophets who have gone before (the Judeo-Christian writings) and then showing in very thorough detail how Islam disproves itself by contradicting the Judeo-Christian writings for which it demands respect. It’s a good source of ammunition if one is in a position to do pro-Christian apologetics, talking to Muslims.

I checked out the “this we believe” page; this group looks like a garden-variety evangelical protestant group. I didn’t see anything against Catholic belief (except for mention of the 66-book Bible). On these pages they were more concerned with countering Islam.
 
the Vatican’s immediate political goal (since it is a national government) is probably to reach an agreement on creating within islam a prohibition against the use of violence against innocent people.

from the religious perspective, the Chair of Peter always places first the salvation of souls. so, from that perspective at least, the objective is the salvation of souls.
That would be a good start, but this is me, not holding my breath.
Somebody needs to convey the message to the suicide bombers.
Careful; that’s the kind of statement that got me slapped on the wrist a couple months ago :eek:
 
We can only pray that dialogue is ongoing with the Muslims and that the Holy Father and the Church will be guided by the Holy Spirit in doing so. Christianity is in need of leadership and the Popes have been more and more needed in providing this in the international scene for the good of mankind. How much could be done, that we do not know, but at least it would not be for lack of trying.

Past history of interacting with the Muslims usually did not achieve much or what we expected to but also they were not always totally in vain. In the age of modern communication, the effect of dialogue would be greater felt as it can be effectively disseminated to the grass root.

Muslims derive their belief from the teaching of their imams and scholars. The former can issue fatwas (edicts) which would not be lost in the mind of Muslims. To some extent, Muslim leaders do have an influence on their flock but even if not, those who do not assent would become fringed group within their midst. The effect in this case would be felt in the long run as extremism is often a result of a long exposure to indoctrination and adverse social environment.

Reuben
 
Islam religious clerics need to come to an agreement amongst themselves first. They have a council of clerics. Why not vote for a patriarch for Shia and a patriarch for Sunni muslims? These two can meet the Pope for dialogue.

The Pope doesn’t have time to talk to every Muslim individual, interest group and cleric.

Muslims need to get with the program and nominate visible spokesmen who can publicly speak for Muslims worldwide. They can make public statements against fundamentalism, terrorism and other issues and they can pull radical clerics into line.
 
Islam religious clerics need to come to an agreement amongst themselves first. They have a council of clerics. Why not vote for a patriarch for Shia and a patriarch for Sunni muslims? These two can meet the Pope for dialogue.

The Pope doesn’t have time to talk to every Muslim individual, interest group and cleric.

Muslims need to get with the program and nominate visible spokesmen who can publicly speak for Muslims worldwide. They can make public statements against fundamentalism, terrorism and other issues and they can pull radical clerics into line.
I cannot imagine this happening, not in this space-time continuum, any more than I can imagine all the Protestant denominations getting together and electing one “patriarch” for a Protestant-Catholic dialogue. Islam isn’t as organizationally fractured as is Protestantism, but it is fractured.
 
What’s needed at the local level is evangelical outreach to muslims in the US; invite a muslim to mass.
 
Depends on your definition of “dialogue.” Dialogue defined by today’s Church is exchanging beliefs without preaching the gospel. I’m Okay, You’re Okay.

Midwest Dialogue of Catholics and Muslims - The USCCB has documents describing dialogue with Muslim leaders, including a dialogue about Muslim-Catholic marriages. usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/interreligious-documents-and-news-releases.cfm#CP_JUMP_112281 .
Praytell, what is “today’s Church”?
👍 Yeah, I sure haven’t seen it though there do seem to be some folks who play that game, they do not represent the authentic Catholic beliefs and so are just about as meaningless as all those other folks who preach "A Different Gospel.

Dialog with Islam? Certainly, but it depends upon who you’re trying to talk to. Decent people who are Muslims…no problem. ISIS? Good luck with that. We’ve already seen too many examples of their response to Christians or even just other Muslims that are not like them.
What’s needed at the local level is evangelical outreach to Muslims in the US; invite a Muslim to mass.
Works for me. 🙂
 
Truth is…you cannot help or change a person that you will not even speak to kindly. 🤷
 
Dialogue with Islam is possible, but like Christianity, they have their Orthodoxy (two major sects, Orthodox and Catholics are similar to Sunni and Shia) and they have their Protestants (various brands of which ISIS is a branch.)

The Protestants of Islam, broke away from Orthodox Islam mainly due to Colonialism. Europe in their attempt to oppress Muslims, dismantled, most of Orthodox Islamic leaders. The profane amongst the Muslims, rebelled, and used unorthodox methods to interpret Islams main text, the Quran and Hadith and this gave birth much of the violent Islam that exist today (ie, the Wahabis, which gave birth to Al Qaida, and this gave birth to ISIS etc.)

The problem trying to reunite Protestant Muslims (which is a growing number) with Orthodox Islam (Sunni and Shia), is almost the same exact reasoning, that Christian Orthodoxy (Orthodox and Catholics) have with reuniting with Protestants.

Saint worship, why should we accept these people as leaders (Popes and Bishops), how certain primary scriptures should be interpreted and implemented.

With that said, There are various leaders within modern Islam, by which a dialogue could take place, as Orthodox Islam and Protestant Islam do have leadership. However it would be more difficult to have such dialogue with Protestant Islam and their leadership, because the mercy and compassion that exist within Orthodox Islam is but scant among Protestant Islam. There are a few protestant Islamic leaders that might have such a dialogue.
 
Yes, but… And it’s a very big “but.”

First, non-Muslims need to be aware that there are various stages of Jihad, depending on the situation Muslims find themselves in. If–as in the US or Europe–they are vastly outnumbered and not in control, they are taught to embrace toleration, peace, dialog, etc. etc. so that they are seen as good citizens and nice people. The second stage is when they find themselves to be in the minority, but a large enough minority so they can influence the society around them. We see this in the US all the time–school districts that ban pork in school lunches, occupational dress exceptions made for hijab-wearing women, and most recently a Wegmans (NY grocery chain) that hired a cashier and allowed her to put up a sign saying that if customers had pork or alcohol, they should go to another cashier. She was allowed to do this by her immediate manager, who was another Muslim. Wegmans has since come to their senses and given her an alternate job. I don’t think I have to elaborate on stage 3. You see stage 3 on the nightly news. When Muslims control the government….well, that’s the end. There’s no going back.

Second, I would bet that 99.999% of non-Muslims have absolutely no idea how organized and committed Muslims are to evangelization (or “da’wa” --propaganda–as they call it). It is seen as the duty of all Muslims. So from street corner preachers to the local mosque (“open houses”) to large international organizations, they are extremely well organized and well funded. There are 15-point plans on Muslim websites on how to convert Christians. So if you have a “dialog” night at your local church, the Christians will come with the intent of gaining some understanding of Islam. Muslims will come with the intent of converting everyone there. If you don’t understand that, it’s hopeless.

To see the extent of Muslim influence, just have a look at who is funding the departments of Middle East studies at US universities. Invariably it’s Saudi Arabia or the Gulf States. At Georgetown, well-known author and advocate of Muslim-Christian amity and harmony John Esposito is director of the Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding. Ask yourself how objective Esposito can be when his paycheck comes from the Saudis.

Third, the level of sophistication of Muslim apologists has grown immensely in the last 30-40 years or so. In the past, Muslim Imams didn’t speak English (or other European languages) that well, weren’t familiar with the Bible or Christian theology, and didn’t really know how to deflect Christian criticisms. That’s all changed. Ahmed Deedat, a South African Indian Muslim, now dead, started a world-wide movement. His disciple, Zakir Naik, also a South African Indian Muslim, has followed in his footsteps. Both have accents, but both are fluent in English. And today you have native-English speakers from 2nd or 3rd generation Muslims (usually Indians/Pakistanis) who speak perfect English, are usually well educated, and know Christianity intimately. A good example is Shabir Ally, a Muslim Indian born in Guyana, but who moved to Canada as an infant. He has a BA in Bible Studies and a PhD from the U. of Toronto in Islamic Studies. All of these people–Deedat, Naik, Ally, and many others–can quote chapter and verse from the Bible on any subject.

Fourth, Catholic religious education is woefully inadequate (I don’t know what happens in Protestant churches, but I suspect the same). Children are taught prayers, church laws, Bible stories, etc., which is all very nice. But ask them why they believe in the Trinity–what support do we have for that in the Bible? Ask them why they think Jesus is God. Ask them how they explain the textual variations in the Gospels or inconsistencies like those found in the Resurrection narratives in each Gospel. I would bet almost all would be completely clueless. These are the main areas Muslims attack–successfully.

Go to Youtube. Search on “converts to Islam” or “Islamic da’wa” or the names I’ve mentioned above and watch some videos. If there is a debate or a Q&A session, it’s like watching the Muslims shooting fish in a barrel. For example, in one Q&A session with Ahmed Deedat (see above), a girl asked him if it wasn’t demeaning for a women to wear a veil. Ahmed immediately shot back: “You don’t even read your own Bible. St. Paul in 1 Corinthians (and he gave the verse number, but I don’t remember it!) told women to wear veils. Why don’t you obey St. Paul? Why are you criticizing Muslims for simply following St. Paul?” The girl stammered a little and retreated. Pitiful. [There is a rebuttal of course–if you read the verse, it actually tells women to wear a head covering *while praying. And of course until the 1960s women did wear a head covering when they entered a church. But as far as I know it was a custom, not a church law. And of course then you have to look at the historical situation–Paul was talking to the Corinthians, who were Greek. Greek women historically did not cover their heads while praying (in any religion). Romans and Jews did. Paul was Jewish and a Roman citizen. Naturally he opted for the custom that was more familiar to him.]
 
part 2—

The number of Western converts would be surprising to most people. In the UK, 30,000+ native British have converted. The converts include a priest (now a professor at al-Azhar in Cairo), several nuns, and a lot of “pious” Catholics who used to say daily rosaries, etc. About 75% of the converts are women, usually 15-25 years old. Most of them are not converting because of marriage, but because they are searching for “the truth,” and when they spot a nugget of truth in the Qur’an, they think it’s a gold mine. Again, most have little or no religious education beyond grade school. It’s like sending a 10-year-old out to debate Stephen Hawking on cosmology. And 9/11 was a blessing for Muslims, since all sorts of people began investigating Islam who knew nothing about it except “stereotypes” and were astounded (!) to find an occasional nugget of wisdom or morality–again, once they found a nugget, they assumed there was a gold mine.

It’s not just the fact of conversion. The main prize is young white women. This is not a racist statement on my part–I’m simply reporting what I see on Muslim videos. If a black male converts, the auditorium is ho-hum. If it’s a 20-year-old white girl, the audience goes wild. These converts are then paraded as trophies. They are told to make “revert videos” which go on Youtube to snare others. Some of them become the chief spokespeople for Islam in their countries. A good example if Emilie/Myriam Francois-Cerrah. You may have seen her as the young daughter in “Sense and Sensibility” in 1995. She became a Muslim at about age 20, 10 years ago. She was raised Catholic. She now appears to plead the Muslim cause on virtually all BBC debates on the subject, and she is all over youtube.

Catholics have virtually no presence online in the Christian-Muslim confrontation. There are a couple sites, but the Evangelicals are doing the heavy lifting in this area. They are a major presence on Youtube and web sites set up to counter Muslim da’wa. When I talked to my local priest–who had just given a sermon on evangelization–he asked me why I was concerned with this. When I went to the diocesan head of evangelization, he said he was more worried about conversions to Protestant religions, and he wasn’t aware of any conversions to Islam. My letters to the USCCB have gone unanswered.
 
part 3–

There is a tradition about Muhammad sending a missionary, Mu’adh, to Yemen. Before sending him, Muhammad gave him instructions: “Ask the people if they believe in one God and that Muhammad is his prophet. If they believe this, ask them to pray five times a day. If they start to pray five times a day, ask them to pay zakat [the 5% religious charity tax].”

Hopefully I don’t have to explain the obvious: Muslims do not present their religion as a whole. They present bits and pieces. When you accept piece #1, they go to piece #2, etc. etc. After you convert, they come along and say, “Now that you are Muslim, we expect you to do x, y, and z.” When you do x, y, and z, they say, “You are still not a good Muslim. You should stop doing a, b, and c.” And so on…sometimes for years. Search for ex-Muslim web sites, where ex-converts are talking to each other. They all have had the same experiences.

Which brings us to “taqiyya,” or “dissimulation” [what most of us would call “lying.”] This is justified in Islam when a Muslim feels threatened in a discussion of religion “threatened” is, of course, a term open to wide interpretation]. So if you asked a Muslim, “Are you in favor of imposing Shari’a instead of civil law?” he may well say, “Of course not.” But is this taqiyya? Does he really think that? You don’t know.

I went to the USCCB site that was referenced by someone else above and glanced at some articles. I picked a name totally at random, who I had never heard of: Muzammil H. Siddiqi, who is mentioned on the USCCB web site as a prominent Muslim leader interested in inter-faith dialog. He is one of the new breed of Muslim leaders: Born in India, he is well educated, with a PhD in comparative religions from Harvard, and he knows the Bible. Terrific. Here’s the rest of the story….

He also issued this fatwa:
“By participating in a non-Islamic system, one cannot rule by that which Allah has commanded. But things do not change overnight. Changes come through patience, wisdom and hard work. I believe that as Muslims, we should participate in the system to safeguard our interests and try to bring gradual change for the right cause, the cause of truth and justice. We must not forget that Allah’s rules have to be established in all lands, and all our efforts should lead to that direction.”

Please read it carefully. The “non-Islamic system” is the US government, which does not follow Islamic law (“that which Allah has commanded”). Change–through patience, wisdom, and hard work…oh oh, I think I see where this is going. “…as Muslims, we should participate in the system [the godless US government] to safeguard our interests…” Not to promote just causes or the common good–to “safeguard our [Muslim] interests.” “…and bring gradual change for the right cause [Shari’a law, Islam]”. And finally, the totally predictable conclusion: “We must not forget that Allah’s rules [Shari’a law] have to be established in all lands, and all our efforts should lead to that direction.” If you think that’s “dialog” then I have a real good deal on the Booklyn Bridge for you.
 
most likely for an Indian born Muslim, non-Islamic lands means India.

I don’t know Mr Siddiqi, however, Islam from India is vastly different from Islam in the Middle East. Most of the sects in India are considered fringe by Saudi/ME Islam, because many of them are offshoots and fled there from violent reprisal. Of course, there are also “mainstream” groups there.
 
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