S
Sarcelle
Guest
I disagree to a point.
There are some elements in Islam that can be reasoned with but we have to keep in mind that strength and reason are not mutually exclusive.
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There are some elements in Islam that can be reasoned with but we have to keep in mind that strength and reason are not mutually exclusive.
E
ephesians4
Guest
Do you mean the West of the USA?This was intended to be an honest question because few of us, including moi, in the West know much, if anything, about Islam.
If you mean the West as in the US, UK, Canada and possibly some other European countries (which is how I most often hear the term used) there is a whole lot of Islam washing around. The UK is positively steeped in it in places.
I have encountered it lots in the West, and although I don’t have very much to say about it that is charitable, I expect you could find out about it straight from the horse’s mouth if you wanted to, for an attempt at a balanced answer to your question.
T
TruthBearer
Guest
Well I apologize, when I said that only the uneducated would accept that falsehood, it was only intended in a specific sense (regarding Islam and the Arabic language) and not in the general sense.And, by the way, I am educated with several graduate degrees and spent years as a distingushed scientist in the US?
People need to be educated about Islam and know theri agenda …
Violence is commanded by the Quran (Sura 9:5)
The goal of Islam is the subjection of planet earth by the sword if necessary. If Islam is resisted "their punichment is execution, or crucifxion. or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or … " Sura 5:33
And so on. They do give you a chance to become a Muslin. Once you reject Islam you will be killed. (Quran, Sura 8:59)
ISIS is just doing what the Quran tells them to do …God loves the Muslim and wants all to come to Him, but you must be willing and accept the free gift of salvation.
The God of the Quran (AI-Ilah, the Moon God) is not the same on God that is in the Old and New Testament, although they try to tell you differently.
it gord on and on.
I am very educated about Islam. ISIS or ISIL are ignorant of Islam, the Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad. ISIS or ISIL have deviated from how Islam has been understood and practiced by the vast majority of Muslims (scholars and laymen alike) for over 1400 years.
**The Christians of Iraq **have lived there for 1400 years under Muslim rule and have never experienced what they are experiencing under the rule of ISIS. SO I DON"T agree with you.
ISIS or ISIL are the products of prisons of Abu Gharib (in Iraq) and Guantanamo Bay. And are filled with hate, ruthlessness, anger, oppression etc.
They are not the products of the teachings of Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam.
May you have a blessed day.
D
Doormouse
Guest
google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAAahUKEwiJl6nO-drGAhWGF9sKHV9tCJU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thelatinlibrary.com%2Fimperialism%2Fnotes%2Fislamchron.html&ei=eCylVYl7hq_sBt_aoagJ&usg=AFQjCNG3aftaDMDtextob0wqr_Vbrrk-PAWell I apologize, when I said that only the uneducated would accept that falsehood, it was only intended in a specific sense (regarding Islam and the Arabic language) and not in the general sense.
I am very educated about Islam. ISIS or ISIL are ignorant of Islam, the Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad. ISIS or ISIL have deviated from how Islam has been understood and practiced by the vast majority of Muslims (scholars and laymen alike) for over 1400 years.
**The Christians of Iraq **have lived there for 1400 years under Muslim rule and have never experienced what they are experiencing under the rule of ISIS. SO I DON"T agree with you.
ISIS or ISIL are the products of prisons of Abu Gharib (in Iraq) and Guantanamo Bay. And are filled with hate, ruthlessness, anger, oppression etc.
They are not the products of the teachings of Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam.
May you have a blessed day.
hit the link and read on. I think its just what he spoke and did from medina till his death. and so the same follows.
Islam and Europe Timeline (355-1291 A.D.)
355: After removing a Roman temple from the site (possibly the Temple of Aphrodite built by Hadrian), Constantine I has the Church of the Holy Sepulcher constructed in Jerusalem. Built around the excavated hill of the Crucifixion, legend has it that Constantine’s mother Helena discovered the True Cross here.
570: Muhammad was born in Mecca.
590 - 604: Pope Gregory the Great (c. 540 - 604) begans his liturgical reforms and changes in church administration.
594: Muhammad became the manager of the business of Lady Khadija.
595: Muhammad married Hadrat Khadija.
610: Muhammad had a religious experience on Mount Hira that changed his life.
613: Persians capture Damascus and Antioch.
M
mamlukman
Guest
Well, if nothing else, I’ll annoy TruthBearer some more.
Unlike a lot of people, I deal in facts–you can quibble about what “facts” are, but they are not just idle speculation. I try to go to original sources. So let’s do that–
Dr. Muzammil H Siddiqi, Chairman of the Muslims Students Association in the US and Canada, Director of the Islamic Center of Washington DC, two-term president of the Islamic Society of North America, and Director of the Islamic Society of Orange County, Chairman of the Fiqh Council of North America, named to various boards by Obama, etc. etc. Let’s hear what he has to say:
“By participating in a non-Islamic system [Western governments], one cannot rule by that which Allah has commanded [Shari’a]. But things do not change overnight. Changes come through patience, wisdom and hard work. I believe that as Muslims, we should participate in the system to safeguard our interests [not to help other people or to seek justice for all, mind you…] and try to bring gradual change for the right cause [Islam], the cause of truth and justice. We must not forget that Allah’s rules have to be established in all lands, and all our efforts should lead to that direction.” [The last sentence says it all. He has shown himself to be the enemy of all democratic Western governments.]
If you don’t like that, let’s listen to Omar Ahmad, co-founder of CAIR (Council of American-Islamic Relations:
“Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam… Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.” [So there we go again–he’s advocating the overthrow of the government and the institution of Shari’a law. And note–NO toleration.]
Then of course you can turn to polls. A recent poll by al-Jazira (on their ARABIC web site) asked this question: “Do you support ISIS in Iraq and Syria?”
yes–81% no–19% And the numbers were 46,060 yes and 10,821 no the last time I looked.
Unlike a lot of people, I deal in facts–you can quibble about what “facts” are, but they are not just idle speculation. I try to go to original sources. So let’s do that–
Dr. Muzammil H Siddiqi, Chairman of the Muslims Students Association in the US and Canada, Director of the Islamic Center of Washington DC, two-term president of the Islamic Society of North America, and Director of the Islamic Society of Orange County, Chairman of the Fiqh Council of North America, named to various boards by Obama, etc. etc. Let’s hear what he has to say:
“By participating in a non-Islamic system [Western governments], one cannot rule by that which Allah has commanded [Shari’a]. But things do not change overnight. Changes come through patience, wisdom and hard work. I believe that as Muslims, we should participate in the system to safeguard our interests [not to help other people or to seek justice for all, mind you…] and try to bring gradual change for the right cause [Islam], the cause of truth and justice. We must not forget that Allah’s rules have to be established in all lands, and all our efforts should lead to that direction.” [The last sentence says it all. He has shown himself to be the enemy of all democratic Western governments.]
If you don’t like that, let’s listen to Omar Ahmad, co-founder of CAIR (Council of American-Islamic Relations:
“Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam… Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.” [So there we go again–he’s advocating the overthrow of the government and the institution of Shari’a law. And note–NO toleration.]
Then of course you can turn to polls. A recent poll by al-Jazira (on their ARABIC web site) asked this question: “Do you support ISIS in Iraq and Syria?”
yes–81% no–19% And the numbers were 46,060 yes and 10,821 no the last time I looked.
T
TruthBearer
Guest
You listed some facts, but you don’t deal with all of the facts.Well, if nothing else, I’ll annoy TruthBearer some more.
Unlike a lot of people, I deal in facts–you can quibble about what “facts” are, but they are not just idle speculation. I try to go to original sources. So let’s do that–
M
mamlukman
Guest
I’m writing a post, not an encyclopedia or a book. However, if you have polls showing the opposite, feel free to post them. I have no doubt some Imams somewhere say the opposite–but the point is that very prominent Imams–in the West–clearly are in favor of overthrowing the existing governments and laws of the countries they live in.You listed some facts, but you don’t deal with all of the facts.
R
Ridgerunner
Guest
They would have to deny their own religion in order to say otherwise, and they can’t do that.I’m writing a post, not an encyclopedia or a book. However, if you have polls showing the opposite, feel free to post them. I have no doubt some Imams somewhere say the opposite–but the point is that very prominent Imams–in the West–clearly are in favor of overthrowing the existing governments and laws of the countries they live in.
T
TruthBearer
Guest
Not necessary to write a book for one to be balanced and fair in their presentation of a religion.I’m writing a post, not an encyclopedia or a book. However, if you have polls showing the opposite, feel free to post them. I have no doubt some Imams somewhere say the opposite–but the point is that very prominent Imams–in the West–clearly are in favor of overthrowing the existing governments and laws of the countries they live in.
You mentioned two people whom I would call NOT prominent Imams, and have been influenced by Wahabism (Salafism). I don’t even know who they are. And I know many Wahabi influenced Imams.
It is a fact Wahabism has had a strong influence on American Islam. The Saudi government built an Islamic Institute in America whose education was free of charge, and they have made many of their Universities in Saudi available for free for American students, free tution and room and board. For many years the Saudi embassy use to make available free Wahabi influence translation of Quran, as well as alot of literature.
It is also a known fact, that the vast majority of foreign fighters part of ISIS are Saudis of Wahabi influenced Islam.
It has been an uphill battle for traditional Sunni Islam in America. Thanks to Imam’s like Shaykh Hamza yusuf, Shaykh Abdullah bin hamid, Shaykh Zaid shakir, Shaykh Nuh keller, and others who made traditional Sunni Islam available for Americans. It is just difficult for such Imams to compete against Saudi back imams who Saudi oil to fund them.
Shaykh Hamza Yusuf and others founded Zaytuna college, to try and compete, but it is not free of charge. It is the first American Islamic College in the US. Shaykh Faraz Rabbani has made traditional Islamic education for free online, at www.seekersguidance.com to try and compete.
So it is not Islam that is the problem, but the protestant version of islam, Wahabism, which has its roots in Saudi arabia, a sect which is only a few 100 years old. If it were for Saudi oil, they would died out.
M
mamlukman
Guest
We’ve gone around on me being “fair” before. I never misrepresent. And if I find two sides, I give them. I just don’t see another side here…
As for the Imams I cited, I gave their credentials. Very mainstream, unless you agree with Spencer et al. that CAIR is a terrorist organization, as well as the Muslim Students Assoc.
We agree on Saudi Arabia though. Yes, they’ve used their money and influence to good effect, and you have to give them credit. Look around at virtually every Middle Eastern Studies Dept. in North America, and you will see Saudi and Gulf money funding chairs, libraries, etc. Which is why MESA (Middle East Studies Assoc.) has become so political. They have basically “bought” academics. It didn’t used to be this way (even in the 1970s things weren’t as political). And as we all know, they’ve also spread their money around in Pakistan, leading to a host of problems. But you can’t dismiss a moderately large country with that much influence as a fringe group. They may have been in 1750, but not now.
But historically it’s not much different than Egypt being a Shi’i country until the Fatimids lost power, or Iran being a Sunni country until the Safavids took over. To a large extent the rulers call the shots–and now it’s money. Not much different.
As for the Imams I cited, I gave their credentials. Very mainstream, unless you agree with Spencer et al. that CAIR is a terrorist organization, as well as the Muslim Students Assoc.
We agree on Saudi Arabia though. Yes, they’ve used their money and influence to good effect, and you have to give them credit. Look around at virtually every Middle Eastern Studies Dept. in North America, and you will see Saudi and Gulf money funding chairs, libraries, etc. Which is why MESA (Middle East Studies Assoc.) has become so political. They have basically “bought” academics. It didn’t used to be this way (even in the 1970s things weren’t as political). And as we all know, they’ve also spread their money around in Pakistan, leading to a host of problems. But you can’t dismiss a moderately large country with that much influence as a fringe group. They may have been in 1750, but not now.
But historically it’s not much different than Egypt being a Shi’i country until the Fatimids lost power, or Iran being a Sunni country until the Safavids took over. To a large extent the rulers call the shots–and now it’s money. Not much different.
T
TruthBearer
Guest
Dr. Muzammil H Siddiqi, He graduated from the Islamic University of Madina in Saudi Arabia in 1965 with a higher degree in Arabic and Islamic Studies. He is a Wahabi…We’ve gone around on me being “fair” before. I never misrepresent. And if I find two sides, I give them. I just don’t see another side here…
As for the Imams I cited, I gave their credentials. Very mainstream, unless you agree with Spencer et al. that CAIR is a terrorist organization, as well as the Muslim Students Assoc.
Omar Ahmad appears to have been influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood, who are heavily influenced by the Wahabi movement.* After Anwar Sadat was killed by the Muslim brotherhood, many were exiled from Egypt, some went to Syria, while others went to Saudi Arabia, it was by way of Saudi Arabia the Muslim Brotherhood become influenced by the Wahabis.
So I would NOT consider them among those who represent traditional Sunni Islam or mainstream Islam.
I wouldn’t say Cair is a terrorist organization, I would say many of them or most of them have been influenced by Wahabism, but the organization is comprised of various kinds of Muslims. But in general, Ive considered most of them as Wahabi influenced.
And the Muslim Student Association differs from Campus to Campus, depending on the make up of Muslims of that college. I’ve seen some that were Wahabi influenced while others were traditional Sunni Islam.
So no I don’t agree with Spencer.
R
rnmvrck
Guest
God Bless
My views about Islam predate 2000, but from that time the differences have dramatically intensified given 9:11 which just testifies to the beliefs I have about Islam. I do not doubt that many Christians lived in peace in Muslim countries for many years, but those Christians lived under an oppressive system in practicing their faith under rules that could easily be changed depending upon which Islamic party was in power. The Quran itself says you give a non believer a chance to become a believer and if they do not , kill them. The Quran is very clear on the punishment for those who resist Islam.
Islam is both a political and religious system. In the last couple of years, the number of Christians living in predominately Muslim countries has dramatically decrease whether in the Islamic Caliphate or in countries like Iran or ones funded by Iran to commit terrorism. Hamas for example is terrorist organization whose charter is the annihilation of the Jews. In Iran last Saturday, there were demonstrations chanting death to America burning the American and Israeli flags, and these types of things have been going since the 70’s.
There are many “denominations” in Islam just like the Christian Church, from liberals to conservatives, all with different intrepetations of the Bible. But the Christian Bible does not spew the hate and violence that Quran is just filled with such as Sura 9:5, Sura 5:33, Sura 9:73, the Al Anfal Sural 8:59, Al Maidah Sura 5:49 just to name a few. The Quran claims to be consistent with the Christian Bible, but the Quran in many places contradicts itself as well as the teachings of the Christian Bible (have many references).
Islam divides the universe into 2 parts “dar Al Islam” : the domain of the faithful (to Islam) and “Dar Al Harb”: those with whom they are at war until Judgment Day. (i.e., all non- Muslims). First the Jews, then the Christians. Muhammed was very upset that Jews ( and Christians) did not accept his religion.
One of the major differences between the Quran (and all other religious books such as the Book of Morman) versus the Bible is that the Bible can be authenticated as the inspired, inerrant word of God and there are no errors or contradictions in the Christian (OT / NT) Bible. Of course some denominations have gone so far as to change the words and meaning of the Bible and / or produce other writings that claim to better explain the Bible. Only the word of God can be authenticated and is authenticated by God in several ways. I use the KJV as this is most closely translated to the literal words of God from the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic.
And you are right, we are never going to agree, but it my hope that one day the Holy Spirit will convict you and that you will accept the free gift of salvation offered by Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who shed His blood on the cross so that all could attain the kingdom of heaven.
God Bless
Thank you for the apology. I also try to not make personal attacks, but to present facts based on research I have conducted. And I am sure you know a lot about Islam from what you were told and taught, just as Christians on here believe what they were told and taught. But that does not mean that one knows the truth. As a subject I have researched Islam over 20 years now especially as to the origins. If you wish to be critical on any of the “research facts” I have, fire away, as I do not claim to be infallible and without error. Obviously, you most likely are / were Muslim and feel compelled to defend Islam as a religion. That, I understand and I try to be sensitive to Muslims because God loves the Muslim and His desire is that all should come to salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ.Well I apologize, when I said that only the uneducated would accept that falsehood, it was only intended in a specific sense (regarding Islam and the Arabic language) and not in the general sense.
I am very educated about Islam. ISIS or ISIL are ignorant of Islam, the Quran and Sunnah of Muhammad. ISIS or ISIL have deviated from how Islam has been understood and practiced by the vast majority of Muslims (scholars and laymen alike) for over 1400 years.
**The Christians of Iraq **have lived there for 1400 years under Muslim rule and have never experienced what they are experiencing under the rule of ISIS. SO I DON"T agree with you.
ISIS or ISIL are the products of prisons of Abu Gharib (in Iraq) and Guantanamo Bay. And are filled with hate, ruthlessness, anger, oppression etc.
They are not the products of the teachings of Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam.
May you have a blessed day.
My views about Islam predate 2000, but from that time the differences have dramatically intensified given 9:11 which just testifies to the beliefs I have about Islam. I do not doubt that many Christians lived in peace in Muslim countries for many years, but those Christians lived under an oppressive system in practicing their faith under rules that could easily be changed depending upon which Islamic party was in power. The Quran itself says you give a non believer a chance to become a believer and if they do not , kill them. The Quran is very clear on the punishment for those who resist Islam.
Islam is both a political and religious system. In the last couple of years, the number of Christians living in predominately Muslim countries has dramatically decrease whether in the Islamic Caliphate or in countries like Iran or ones funded by Iran to commit terrorism. Hamas for example is terrorist organization whose charter is the annihilation of the Jews. In Iran last Saturday, there were demonstrations chanting death to America burning the American and Israeli flags, and these types of things have been going since the 70’s.
There are many “denominations” in Islam just like the Christian Church, from liberals to conservatives, all with different intrepetations of the Bible. But the Christian Bible does not spew the hate and violence that Quran is just filled with such as Sura 9:5, Sura 5:33, Sura 9:73, the Al Anfal Sural 8:59, Al Maidah Sura 5:49 just to name a few. The Quran claims to be consistent with the Christian Bible, but the Quran in many places contradicts itself as well as the teachings of the Christian Bible (have many references).
Islam divides the universe into 2 parts “dar Al Islam” : the domain of the faithful (to Islam) and “Dar Al Harb”: those with whom they are at war until Judgment Day. (i.e., all non- Muslims). First the Jews, then the Christians. Muhammed was very upset that Jews ( and Christians) did not accept his religion.
One of the major differences between the Quran (and all other religious books such as the Book of Morman) versus the Bible is that the Bible can be authenticated as the inspired, inerrant word of God and there are no errors or contradictions in the Christian (OT / NT) Bible. Of course some denominations have gone so far as to change the words and meaning of the Bible and / or produce other writings that claim to better explain the Bible. Only the word of God can be authenticated and is authenticated by God in several ways. I use the KJV as this is most closely translated to the literal words of God from the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic.
And you are right, we are never going to agree, but it my hope that one day the Holy Spirit will convict you and that you will accept the free gift of salvation offered by Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who shed His blood on the cross so that all could attain the kingdom of heaven.
God Bless
T
TruthBearer
Guest
It seems like you and the Islamic terrorists interpret the Quran in the same way.God Bless
Thank you for the apology. I also try to not make personal attacks, but to present facts based on research I have conducted. And I am sure you know a lot about Islam from what you were told and taught, just as Christians on here believe what they were told and taught. But that does not mean that one knows the truth. As a subject I have researched Islam over 20 years now especially as to the origins. If you wish to be critical on any of the “research facts” I have, fire away, as I do not claim to be infallible and without error. Obviously, you most likely are / were Muslim and feel compelled to defend Islam as a religion. That, I understand and I try to be sensitive to Muslims because God loves the Muslim and His desire is that all should come to salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ.
My views about Islam predate 2000, but from that time the differences have dramatically intensified given 9:11 which just testifies to the beliefs I have about Islam. I do not doubt that many Christians lived in peace in Muslim countries for many years, but those Christians lived under an oppressive system in practicing their faith under rules that could easily be changed depending upon which Islamic party was in power. The Quran itself says you give a non believer a chance to become a believer and if they do not , kill them. The Quran is very clear on the punishment for those who resist Islam.
Islam is both a political and religious system. In the last couple of years, the number of Christians living in predominately Muslim countries has dramatically decrease whether in the Islamic Caliphate or in countries like Iran or ones funded by Iran to commit terrorism. Hamas for example is terrorist organization whose charter is the annihilation of the Jews. In Iran last Saturday, there were demonstrations chanting death to America burning the American and Israeli flags, and these types of things have been going since the 70’s.
There are many “denominations” in Islam just like the Christian Church, from liberals to conservatives, all with different intrepetations of the Bible. But the Christian Bible does not spew the hate and violence that Quran is just filled with such as Sura 9:5, Sura 5:33, Sura 9:73, the Al Anfal Sural 8:59, Al Maidah Sura 5:49 just to name a few. The Quran claims to be consistent with the Christian Bible, but the Quran in many places contradicts itself as well as the teachings of the Christian Bible (have many references).
Islam divides the universe into 2 parts “dar Al Islam” : the domain of the faithful (to Islam) and “Dar Al Harb”: those with whom they are at war until Judgment Day. (i.e., all non- Muslims). First the Jews, then the Christians. Muhammed was very upset that Jews ( and Christians) did not accept his religion.
One of the major differences between the Quran (and all other religious books such as the Book of Morman) versus the Bible is that the Bible can be authenticated as the inspired, inerrant word of God and there are no errors or contradictions in the Christian (OT / NT) Bible. Of course some denominations have gone so far as to change the words and meaning of the Bible and / or produce other writings that claim to better explain the Bible. Only the word of God can be authenticated and is authenticated by God in several ways. I use the KJV as this is most closely translated to the literal words of God from the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic.
And you are right, we are never going to agree, but it my hope that one day the Holy Spirit will convict you and that you will accept the free gift of salvation offered by Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who shed His blood on the cross so that all could attain the kingdom of heaven.
God Bless
I was fortunate enough to learn Islam from traditional Sunni Muslims.
Shaykh al Arabi al Darqawi, a direct descendent of Muhammad Ibn Abdullah, the Prophet of Islam, said, “When one of the brothers told me that he had hit a Jew without any reason, rather by vanity and injustice, I told him, ‘Do not hit a jew or a christian or a muslim, strike your **self (1) **and keep beating it until it dies. It is necessary.’” (The Daqawi Way)
And this was written during the time when Muslims lands were being colonized by Europe. Shaykh al Arabi al Darqawi was living in Morocco.
NOTE: (1) Self: refers to the lower self, or the sinful self, the self that it is attracted to lower desires.
Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam said,** “None of you believes until he loves his brother what he loves for himself.”** (Al Bukhari and Muslim)
Imam Nawawi said, "With respect to his (Muhammad’s) saying, “None of you believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself”, the first thing to be said is that it should be interpreted in terms of the universality of brotherhood, even to the extent of encompassing disbelievers and Muslims."
Imam Nawawi is one of the greatest scholars of Islam, respected by all Sunni across the board. This is what I was taught when I was Muslim.
So I reject your understanding of Islam, and in the same breath I reject the terrorist understanding of Islam. This is to say, you may know Christianity, but you do not know Islam.
May you have a blessed day.
M
mamlukman
Guest
Let’s say there’s a hypothetical religion, The Purple Path. The Purple Path has a holy book that supposedly was revealed by God. In it, you can find 10 places where it tells you to kill unbelievers until they submit. You can also find 10 places where it tells you to be kind to unbelievers. Now at different times in history, the followers who believe in killing were the majority in some countries; at other times, the followers who believed in kindness were in the majority. Both sides always claimed they were the real, genuine Purple Path followers and people on the other side were unbelievers.
Outsiders look at this religion and say, “What a contradictory mess. First of all, how can anyone believe in a holy book that gives you opposite advice? How can we deal with these Purple Path people? They have no leaders we can negotiate with, and leaders on one side are dismissed as heretics by those on the other side. And someone who on Tuesday was a “kind” and reasonable Purple Path follower is a “killer” Purple Path follower on Wednesday. This makes these people really unpredictable and dangerous.”
Outsiders look at this religion and say, “What a contradictory mess. First of all, how can anyone believe in a holy book that gives you opposite advice? How can we deal with these Purple Path people? They have no leaders we can negotiate with, and leaders on one side are dismissed as heretics by those on the other side. And someone who on Tuesday was a “kind” and reasonable Purple Path follower is a “killer” Purple Path follower on Wednesday. This makes these people really unpredictable and dangerous.”
T
TruthBearer
Guest
Logically speaking, one can find contradictions in every scriptures, in every religion.Let’s say there’s a hypothetical religion, The Purple Path. The Purple Path has a holy book that supposedly was revealed by God. In it, you can find 10 places where it tells you to kill unbelievers until they submit. You can also find 10 places where it tells you to be kind to unbelievers. Now at different times in history, the followers who believe in killing were the majority in some countries; at other times, the followers who believed in kindness were in the majority. Both sides always claimed they were the real, genuine Purple Path followers and people on the other side were unbelievers.
Outsiders look at this religion and say, “What a contradictory mess. First of all, how can anyone believe in a holy book that gives you opposite advice? How can we deal with these Purple Path people? They have no leaders we can negotiate with, and leaders on one side are dismissed as heretics by those on the other side. And someone who on Tuesday was a “kind” and reasonable Purple Path follower is a “killer” Purple Path follower on Wednesday. This makes these people really unpredictable and dangerous.”
A believer sees no contradictions and understands those verses in the context in which those verses were revealed.
A disbelievers will always see contradictions, which is why they disbelieve.
M
mamlukman
Guest
I think that more important than my interpretation of Islam or TruthBearer’s interpretation, or anyone’s interpretation, is what Muslims themselves think as a group. The only way you can get to that is through polls. And yes, I am aware of all the possible pitfalls of polls–but it’s the best we’ve got until we invent a machine that can scan people’s brains and see what they think.
thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Opinion-Polls.htm
Is a really good link–it lists dozens of polls of all sorts by topic (9/11; violence in Islam; honor killings; assimilation, etc.) and gives a quick one-line summary before giving you the link to each poll and its results.
A quick scan of the polls and the results shows that we’re not dealing with a few nut jobs in the desert, we’re dealing with hundreds of millions of people all over the world. A glance at the numbers should send a chill down your spine. And TruthBearer, I think you should be most worried–they’ll come for you first! When I lived in Saudi Arabia (ah, such happy times!) the people who had it worst were not the infidel dogs like me. It was accepted that we were some sort of inferior scum and beneath contempt. It was the Turks, the converts, and the Black Muslims who had the hardest time–they were expected to toe the line, and Allah help them if they didn’t. They were harassed constantly. A Turkish friend waxed wistful about the good old days when his grandfather had been governor of the province in Ottoman times. It’s a sad commentary that you can look back on the Ottoman Empire as the good old days.
thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Opinion-Polls.htm
Is a really good link–it lists dozens of polls of all sorts by topic (9/11; violence in Islam; honor killings; assimilation, etc.) and gives a quick one-line summary before giving you the link to each poll and its results.
A quick scan of the polls and the results shows that we’re not dealing with a few nut jobs in the desert, we’re dealing with hundreds of millions of people all over the world. A glance at the numbers should send a chill down your spine. And TruthBearer, I think you should be most worried–they’ll come for you first! When I lived in Saudi Arabia (ah, such happy times!) the people who had it worst were not the infidel dogs like me. It was accepted that we were some sort of inferior scum and beneath contempt. It was the Turks, the converts, and the Black Muslims who had the hardest time–they were expected to toe the line, and Allah help them if they didn’t. They were harassed constantly. A Turkish friend waxed wistful about the good old days when his grandfather had been governor of the province in Ottoman times. It’s a sad commentary that you can look back on the Ottoman Empire as the good old days.
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