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Warrior1979
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And they continue…Ya’ll have a vocabulary issue going on here
“Valid” marriages can and are dissolved under certain circumstances. “Sacramental” marriages cannot be dissolved.
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Incomplete
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According to the USCCB, an annulment is to determine whether or not a marriage is valid, not sacramental. A valid marriage is also sacramental if it’s between two Christians. So it’s a valid marriage that cannot be dissolved.And they continue…
“Valid” marriages can and are dissolved under certain circumstances. “Sacramental” marriages cannot be dissolved.
nccbuscc.org/laity/marriage/marriagefaqs.shtml
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joanofarc2008
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Actually I did not say the CCC was kept under lock and key and was not available to the lay people. However in order to look at when to apply any document or when to reach for another document one must look at the purpose document was written for. Yes, the Bl John Paul II wrote on the first page. It does not change the fact the CCC was written as a teaching document for Bishops. When one reads this one must keep this in mind contextually. We as Catholics are not Fundamentalists. We are Contextualists. And please since you have alluded to your resume lets hear it. Because i don’t see anyone here not standing up for Holy Mother Church. I see you misrepresenting basic teachings to try to discourage people from getting out of unsafe situations rather than go the one step further and look at actual Canon law. The poster did not ask for advice. The poster asked for an intellectual conversation based in theory. Therefore that is what we are having.
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Ninian29
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Castello,When in doubt, to the Catechism
2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.
If civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.
2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery:
If a husband, separated from his wife, approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery, and the woman who lives with him is an adulteress, because she has drawn another’s husband to herself.
2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.
2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.
I fail to see what you are trying to say?or is this a Catechism lesson?
This thread is about people being in ABUSIVE marriages,it
s Pastoral care thats needed,not a lecture on the Sacraments of the church.
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Castello
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Question - is divorce okay when a spouse is abusive?
Answered clearly by the Catechism.
Pray, where did I tell the person not to seek the advice of their priest or to stay in an unsafe situation? I will give you a dollar if you can find where I said that.
About my resume, it is against forum rules to ask for personal information.
Answered clearly by the Catechism.
Pray, where did I tell the person not to seek the advice of their priest or to stay in an unsafe situation? I will give you a dollar if you can find where I said that.
About my resume, it is against forum rules to ask for personal information.
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aicirt
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If you are a victim of physical abuse, you suffer psychological and emotional abuse. Kind of hard not to. Also most, but not all, use verbal abuse with the physical. Financial abuse is limiting funds, controlling money, not allowing victim funds for own use and legitimate personal needs like hair, clothes etc. Neglect is not providing housing and/or medical care.They are many types of abuses in Marriage,so it may depend on that too.Physical violence is not the only abuse out there.There is verbal,mental and even sexual which is harder to prove as they are rarely witness to those.Sticky area for the church the deal with
Pictures of the abuse e.g. bruises etc., victim’s diary, copies of restraining orders, police report, counselors statements are all available to the victim to show to the Church.
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Newbie2
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I agree that there is some confusion over the terminology used here. We need to be clear about what we mean and what the Church means.Ya’ll have a vocabulary issue going on here
Valid marriages can’t “be annulled.” In valid marriages can’t be, either. It’s a shorthand expression and it is unfortunately misleading. No marriage is “annulled” by the Church, though certain ones can be dissolved. A decree of nullity states that a marriage was never valid in the first place.
Abuse may have occurred, and there may be therapeutic and medical records involved, but it is possible for an abusive spouse to fight the tribunal investigation and refuse to release records or let a therapist testify, so unless laypeople saw bruises, it is possible to hide quite a bit from a tribunal.
Aaron and others who suggest therapy and reconciliation for abusers, please know that depending on the severity and type of abuse, couples’ counseling is often totally inappropriate for these situations. Therapy has to occur in a totally safe environment, and that wouldn’t be possible with an abuser, who would just manipulate the situation. Getting therapy and reconciling would take YEARS at a minimum, and would require a huge commitment on the part of the abuser, especially, who would have to fully own up to the abuse, which is pretty rare.
- A valid, sacramantal marriage cannot be dissolved or annuled. It is valid until one of the spouses dies, regardless of the circumstances. It doesn’t matter if one spouse goes off the deep end and gets abusive, whatever. The marriage is a lifelong bond that cannot be broken by anyone’s behavior.
- Divorce is recognized by the Church as a civil matter; spouses can seek a civil separation under certain circumstances but remain sacramentally married in the eyes of the Church.
- The opposite can also hold, at least in theory; while two people can remain civilly married, a Tribunal can grant them a decree of nullity, as has been said, stating that there was never a sacramental marriage to begin with. Presumably, a couple who were seeking annulmment would not choose to stay civilly married, but I can imagine some weird circumstance where they might choose to do so for purposes of organizing finances, taxes, etc. It would be odd.
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EvelynEVF
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I don’t know about the rest of the world, but in the USA, a tribunal will not open an investigation until the couple has been civilly divorced. Some dioceses also have a six month waiting period.
It is hard for me to imagine two people in an invalid marriage who could get along well enough and safely enough to share the legal burdens of “marriage”, but I guess if it was all done via lawyers, it could happen. In the USA they would have to actually remarry civilly, though.
It is hard for me to imagine two people in an invalid marriage who could get along well enough and safely enough to share the legal burdens of “marriage”, but I guess if it was all done via lawyers, it could happen. In the USA they would have to actually remarry civilly, though.
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Newbie2
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Thanks for the clarification. I wasn’t clear in what I meant by “in theory”.
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Newbie2
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Thanks for the clarification. I wasn’t clear in what I meant by “in theory”.
Yeah, I guess if there were some purely legal matters they could work something out like getting civilly divorced and then get civilly remarried after the annulment was granted. Or on could get a sex-change and they could get “married” or have some sort of civil partnership as a gay couple.
But in all seriousness, I would think that if either or both partners took marriage seriously enough to respect the issue of sacramentality, the legal matters would not factor in.
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Corki
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ok, if you want to be specific on terminology
— a valid, Sacramental marriage can be dissolved IF it is unconsumated. That is such a rarity that it is almost never applied. But “almost never” is still different than “never”.
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Newbie2
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ok, if you want to be specific on terminology
Well, there ya go…further clarification.
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acarlson
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The Catechism is not the same thing as Canon Law. Just throwing that out there.
:twocents:
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joanofarc2008
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If I were asking for your name, address, etc - that would be personal information. It is possible to give an idea of where one is coming from without giving away one’s identity. BTW- I am not the one that started the discussion of your resume - you are the one that made the statement:
This would imply you were trying to share something. Now, I did not say that you were not educated or even bring up your level education. I brought up my observations based on what you wrote and how you wrote it.
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Ninian29
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Emotional abuse is different from physical and can be far more damaging.It is all about controlling a person,complete oppression of a persons freedom.
Physical violence normally has verbal abuse too.Not all abuser use the types of abuse at the same time. Some abusers use violence alone,others verbal and emotional ,others it is financial.The affect is devastating in all cases.However, you cant prove emotional or sexual,no one can see those scars unfortunately.
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Warrior1979
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I actually recently learned about where this situation might be applied. Marriages can be dissolved if they are non-sacramental; i.e, if one or both of the parties in a valid marriage is not baptized. If the couple civilly divorces, and the non-baptized party(s) become validly baptized (resulting in both spouses being validly baptized at the same time), their marriage becomes sacramental. However, it is viewed as sacramental but not consummated. As such the Petrine and Pauline Privileges would not apply, but can still be dissolved because it is not consummated since becoming sacramental.ok, if you want to be specific on terminology
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fall_fox
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fall foxI’m not abused or married (I’m a minor) but is it?
The deal about annulments is whether the problem existed before the marriage took place. I’m sure you have heard the expression " the honeymoon is over ", what that means is now they can be themselves. When a couple are dating, they are on their best behavior, things can be hidden that will come out later. This is grounds for not only divorce but also an annulment.
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