Is drinking a sin?

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marietta said:
Michael David:

Your response clearly illustrates a failure to recognize alcoholism as a disease of obsession and compulsion. *“Nature vs nurture; inherited traits; biophysical/biochemical; allergy or genetic predisposition… none of these singly hold up to the inner truth **inside the alcoholic,” *you claim. “And even as a combination, it then becomes a full life/living situation eliminating any single cause.” On the contrary: no single cause has been eliminated; in fact, each cause has been exacerbated by the others. What you are evaluating, from what sounds like a non-alcoholic viewpoint, is an impression of alcoholism; and from this you conclude, erroneously, that alcoholism is no more than willful misconduct which should easily be corrected through choosing God’s grace.

Adam and Eve’s having partaken of the apple in the Garden of Eden (and I interpret this “anecdote” metaphorically) was allegedly a decision made after God instructed them not to do so. Conversely, God did **not **instruct Jesus not to drink wine, which the NT shows that Jesus did; so if Jesus was not sinning in His drinking, then neither are we. Drinking alcohol which escalates in frequency and intensity is not always alcoholism; that is, there may not yet be an obsession or compulsion driving the behavior. The individual who indulges in this pattern is considered only to be a heavy drinker. S/he still has a choice as to when and how much to ingest. The alcoholic, on the other hand, has lost all choice; the body, mind and spirit have been completely hijacked by the addiction. Yes, the grace of God is still available to that individual, but can s/he see it or regard it as something valuable or as a solution to this problem? First the alcoholic has to admit that he or she even has a problem. This is where so many, many alcoholics fail to admit their powerlessness and are too sick to allow for the possibility that there may be a better life than the one which has them shackled to a substance.

“And in all this, isn’t that why Christ had to come down?” you ask, “To show us with allergies, diseases, bio-this and bio-that, genetic whatever… the way back to HIS Good Graces.”
Do not discount the great number of alcoholics and addicts who find their way back to productive, fulfilling and redemptive lives without the intercession of Christ or of any God at all. (And did Christ have to come down? Or did he choose to come down? Or was he instructed to come down? Curious, that.)

You have referred to “the inner truth inside the alcoholic”. What do you suspect is the “inner truth inside the alcoholic”? This will be fascinating reading for any of us in recovery and also for those who, through serendipity, despair, or hope, happen across CAF in search of an answer to the enormously perplexing and frustrating problem of alcoholism.

marietta

(P.S.: I would’ve used the word “jibe”, not “jive”, but that’s just me . . .)
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Name this quote:

“You’ve given up good and evil in exchange for behaviorism. … you’ve got everyone in moral dignity pants…nothing is ever anybody’s fault.”
 
"Name this quote:

‘You’ve given up good and evil in exchange for behaviorism. … you’ve got everyone in moral dignity pants…nothing is ever anybody’s fault.’

Too easy: Moe Howard. No, wait . . . George Carlin. No . . . Lenny Bruce??

So your view is that alcoholism and every other substance addiction is willful misconduct? Is the only solution Jesus Christ?

marietta
 
marietta said:
"Name this quote:

‘You’ve given up good and evil in exchange for behaviorism. … you’ve got everyone in moral dignity pants…nothing is ever anybody’s fault.’

Too easy: Moe Howard. No, wait . . . George Carlin. No . . . Lenny Bruce??

So your view is that alcoholism and every other substance addiction is willful misconduct? Is the only solution Jesus Christ?

marietta
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It’s the only solution, period.

And nice try—but guess again.
 
Sailor Kenshin:

I have already emailed John Whitehead regarding his thoughts on alcoholism vis a vis disease/willful misconduct, particularly as the subject applies to culpability.

The Foundation is 25 miles from my home. I may just have to drop in on him and have a chat.

I realize this is a Catholic forum. If your interest is in running off every booze-afflicted person who has or will come to CAF looking for a solution, you have effectively done so. I respectfully submit, within the high walls and protected environment of your Roman Catholic courtyard, that giving one’s soul and self to Christ is not the only solution to the problem of alcoholism, nor is it the sole path to long-lasting and continual sobriety.

Nice try - but guess again.

marietta
 
marietta said:
Sailor Kenshin:

I have already emailed John Whitehead regarding his thoughts on alcoholism vis a vis disease/willful misconduct, particularly as the subject applies to culpability.

The Foundation is 25 miles from my home. I may just have to drop in on him and have a chat.

I realize this is a Catholic forum. If your interest is in running off every booze-afflicted person who has or will come to CAF looking for a solution, you have effectively done so. I respectfully submit, within the high walls and protected environment of your Roman Catholic courtyard, that giving one’s soul and self to Christ is not the only solution to the problem of alcoholism, nor is it the sole path to long-lasting and continual sobriety.

Nice try - but guess again.

marietta
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I have no clue what makes you so hostile to the Church. Or makes you so badly miss the point I made. But I respectfully submit that nothing is possible without God.
 
Sailor Kenshin:

a) it’s the intolerance for thoughts, ideas, dreams, hopes which are not Catholic in nature (surely you recognize that not all drunks are Catholics);

b) which point did I miss? I will again try to address it;

c) “nothing is possible without God”, yet alcoholics who do not believe in any God can remarkably recover from their disease. So in these cases, is recovery an inside job (with the drunk learning and growing and straightening out on his own without praying for the intercession of God), or is it an outside job (with God as YOU understand him being merciful to the drunk who is struggling and allowing his recovery in spite of the drunk’s refusal or reluctance to rely on God)? If it is the latter, then why is God not merciful to all who suffer? What makes Him selective?

marietta
 
marietta said:
Sailor Kenshin:

a) it’s the intolerance for thoughts, ideas, dreams, hopes which are not Catholic in nature (surely you recognize that not all drunks are Catholics);

b) which point did I miss? I will again try to address it;

c) “nothing is possible without God”, yet alcoholics who do not believe in any God can remarkably recover from their disease. So in these cases, is recovery an inside job (with the drunk learning and growing and straightening out on his own without praying for the intercession of God), or is it an outside job (with God as YOU understand him being merciful to the drunk who is struggling and allowing his recovery in spite of the drunk’s refusal or reluctance to rely on God)? If it is the latter, then why is God not merciful to all who suffer? What makes Him selective?

marietta
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Attacks on the Church are as old as Satan himself.

And try to recall that neither Christ nor his Apostles were all sweetness and light, nor anything even close to today’s “Oh, go ahead and do as you please, nothing’s your fault” paganism.
 
marietta said:
Sailor Kenshin:

a) it’s the intolerance for thoughts, ideas, dreams, hopes which are not Catholic in nature (surely you recognize that not all drunks are Catholics);

b) which point did I miss? I will again try to address it;

c) “nothing is possible without God”, yet alcoholics who do not believe in any God can remarkably recover from their disease. So in these cases, is recovery an inside job (with the drunk learning and growing and straightening out on his own without praying for the intercession of God), or is it an outside job (with God as YOU understand him being merciful to the drunk who is struggling and allowing his recovery in spite of the drunk’s refusal or reluctance to rely on God)? If it is the latter, then why is God not merciful to all who suffer? What makes Him selective?

marietta
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very well said. as noted in a related thread, it often takes crashing out before alcoholics finally seek help, and at that point, the road to recovery does not begin with a theology lecture. God surely is merciful to these souls.
 
Sailor Kenshin:

“Oh, go ahead and do as you please, nothing’s your fault” paganism."

I have not said that an alcoholic is not responsible for his or her behavior. I have said that as far as drinking goes, s/he has no choice. Choice, for a drunk, is a fossil, a relic from a long-distant past when the body didn’t crave the drink and the mind didn’t care about the future. It’s a raw dilemma, to be addicted to a substance one is allergic to and to try constantly to measure that magic amount without exceeding one’s limit - particularly when one has no limit.

The responses on this thread don’t surprise me. It appears that many Catholics believe that alcoholism is not a malady of mind, body and spirit, but is instead a calculatedly hedonistic, aggressive dismissal of everything honorable. Would you like to take a guess as to why so many treatment programs and so many individual efforts to get sober wind up failing?

It’s called stigma.

marietta
 
I suppose that if a person does not believe in God, then God does not exist.

Nicely reasoned.
 
Marietta, Quote "It appears that many Catholics believe that alcoholism is not a malady of mind, body and spirit, but is instead a calculatedly hedonistic, aggressive dismissal of everything honorable. Would you like to take a guess as to why so many treatment programs and so many individual efforts to get sober wind up failing?

It’s called stigma."

I am Catholic. And I believe that alcoholism affects the body, mind and spirit down to the soul. Absence helps the body get better, the mind gets more sane, the spirit gets lifted, but the soul still needs Christ forgiveness (which is usually done before it is asked for). I believe God knows us down to levels we don’t even know ourselves in early sobriety. The Will has turned around even before the last drink has been taken… the Flesh is weak tho. (Why else does one try to control it, or manage it? Before finally throwing in the towel.)

We all have a “stigma”… or you have never done anything wrong. It is a reputational thing, and that can be hurt in many many ways.
 
Michael_David said:
Absence helps the body get better, the mind gets more sane, the spirit gets lifted, but the soul still needs Christ forgiveness (which is usually done before it is asked for). I believe God knows us down to levels we don’t even know ourselves in early sobriety. The Will has turned around even before the last drink has been taken… the Flesh is weak tho. (Why else does one try to control it, or manage it? Before finally throwing in the towel.)

We all have a “stigma”… or you have never done anything wrong. It is a reputational thing, and that can be hurt in many many ways.
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" . . . which is usually done before it is asked for." What if it’s not asked for? Then is God all-forgiving? If the sinner feels guilt, shame, repentance for transgressions committed while under the influence, is that not enough to be forgiven? Does forgiveness have a price tag?

The Will has not always turned around even before the last drink has been taken. Read: relapse.

New pick up line: “Hey, baby, what’s your stigma?”

marietta
 
There’s a movement to remove the idea of ‘stigma’ altogether. This goes hand-in-hand with the attempt to blur the lines between good and evil, right and wrong.

Some things SHOULD carry a stigma. Sin still is, and always will be, sin, no matter what our current society ‘celebrates.’
 
marietta Quote “Does forgiveness have a price tag?”

It’s called Gratitude!
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
If it’s a sin then me and Sam Adams need to break up.

😃

I live in wine country, too. That reminds me, there’s half a bottle in the fridge…
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Pass some my way! Oh wait, I am pregnant so I have to wait. Give me a few months then pass it my way 👍
 
*"The American Medical Association endorsed the concept [of alcoholism as disease] in 1957. The American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization and the American College of Physicians have also classified alcoholism as a disease. In addition, the findings of investigators in the late 1970s led to explicit criteria for an ‘alcohol dependence syndrome’ which are now listed in the DSM IIR, DSM IV, and the ICD manual. In a 1992 JAMA article, the Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine published this definition for alcoholism: ‘Alcoholism is a primary chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, mostly denial. Each of these symptoms may be continuous or periodic. . .’

“Alcoholism should not be judged as a problem of willpower, misconduct, or any other unscientific diagnosis. The problem must be accepted for what it is—a biopsychosocial disease with a strong genetic influence, obvious signs and symptoms, a natural progression and a fatal outcome if not treated. In the past 10 years, the medical profession’s and the public’s acceptance of smoking as an addictive disease has resulted in reducing nicotine use in the United States. I feel that similar strides can be made with alcohol abuse. We must begin, as we did with nicotine, by educating and convincing our own colleagues that alcoholism is a disease. We must also emphasize that physicians have played a significant role in reducing the mortality and morbidity from nicotine use through patient education. Through strong physician intervention, I believe that we can achieve similar results with alcohol abuse.” - “Managing Alcoholism As A Disease”, Thomas R. Hobbs, PhD, MD*

If anyone is prepared to fire back that the U S. mental health monolith cultivated the disease model for its own gain, remember that Alcoholics Anonymous is open to any alcoholic, suffering or not, and it will cost that person nothing to seek restoration and recovery.

marietta
 
Sailor_Kenshin said:
Some things SHOULD carry a stigma. Sin still is, and always will be, sin, no matter what our current society ‘celebrates.’
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Have you come to understand that “current society” (whatever that is) actually **celebrates **the loss of self-respect, of relationships, of businesses, economic security, communion with God, and the loss of His daily grace through the “sin” of alcoholism?

That view is borne of a pathetic lack of information and is totally devoid of compassion.

marietta
 
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