Is drinking a sin?

[Michael_David]

So then shall I conclude that God’s love is not unconditional, as it is so often represented?

marietta

According to Wikipedia, Gratitude is:
"Gratitude, appreciation, or thankfulness is a positive emotion or attitude in acknowledgment of a benefit that one has received or will receive.

In a religious context, gratitude can also refer to a feeling of indebtedness towards a deity. Most religions prescribe rituals of thanksgiving towards their higher powers; the expression of gratitude to God is a central theme of Christianity and Islam.

In contrast to the positive feeling of gratitude, the feeling of indebtedness is a negative reaction to a favor (Tsang, 2006a; Watkins, Scheer, Ovnicek, & Kolts, 2006). Even though our reactions to favors might not always be positive, researchers have found that people express gratitude often. In a 1998 Gallup poll, the majority of Americans said they express gratitude to God (54%) and others (67%) “all the time.”

It depends on YOU! How you react is YOUR personal Choice.

 

[marietta]

Michael David:

According to* Wikipedia*, “evasion” is:

"evasion (plural evasions)

The act of eluding or avoiding, particularly the pressure of an argument, accusation, charge, or interrogation; artful means of eluding."

You have asserted that the price of forgiveness is gratitude. I know what gratitude is; I would like to know why we must use it to purchase forgiveness from the allegedly all-loving God.
Our gratitude may be a by-product of the changes that occur as a result of our pursuit of sobriety, but for some people this gratitude is not directed toward Jesus or God or any deity. It may be directed toward the power of an AA group to embrace and share with its members. It may be directed toward an individual, such as a sponsor. A foundational tenet of Alcoholics Anonymous is that it is not allied with any sect, denomination, or religion. Please allow for those who do not share your religious beliefs to recover without the guilt or shame you try to heap on them by insisting that they owe every breath they take to God as you understand Him.

marietta

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Have you come to understand that “current society” (whatever that is) actually **celebrates **the loss of self-respect, of relationships, of businesses, economic security, communion with God, and the loss of His daily grace through the “sin” of alcoholism?

That view is borne of a pathetic lack of information and is totally devoid of compassion.

marietta

Whose view is that? Please explain.

 

[Michael_David]

Marietta,

I am grateful that this computer is working, it didn’t before.
I am grateful my car started this morning, two week ago it didn’t.
I am grateful my dog made across the road (without getting hit), as happened to the one before him.
I am grateful for another day of sobriety.
I am grateful for the sermon last Sunday, made me think.

I left how you express Gratitude to you… and who you do it to.
And I will express it as I will also… and to who I will.

As for the price to pay for forgiveness…
For me, that price has been paid in the misery of the sin (wrong)… the forgiveness brings the Gratitude and Freedom back.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Marietta,

I am grateful that this computer is working, it didn’t before.
I am grateful my car started this morning, two week ago it didn’t.
I am grateful my dog made across the road (without getting hit), as happened to the one before him.
I am grateful for another day of sobriety.
I am grateful for the sermon last Sunday, made me think.

I left how you express Gratitude to you… and who you do it to.
And I will express it as I will also… and to who I will.

As for the price to pay for forgiveness…
For me, that price has been paid in the misery of the sin (wrong)… the forgiveness brings the Gratitude and Freedom back.

It was my Godfadda who taught me to make these lists. They really work.

 

[marietta]

Sailor Kenshin writes:

*"There’s a movement to remove the idea of ‘stigma’ altogether. This goes hand-in-hand with the attempt to blur the lines between good and evil, right and wrong.

Some things i.e., alcoholism] SHOULD carry a stigma. Sin still is, and always will be, sin, no matter what our current society ‘celebrates.’"*

Sailor Kenshin quotes:

**Originally Posted by marietta:]
*"Have you come to understand that ‘current society’ (whatever that is) actually celebrates the loss of self-respect, of relationships, of businesses, economic security, communion with God, and the loss of His daily grace through the ‘sin’ of alcoholism?

"That view is borne of a pathetic lack of information and is totally devoid of compassion.

“marietta” ***

Sailor Kenshin asks:

“Whose view is that? Please explain.”

Sailor Kenshin:
**
Do you or do you not believe alcoholism is a sin? Do you or do you not believe that alcoholism should have a stigma attached to it?

A simple yes or no would be refreshing.

marietta**

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Sailor Kenshin writes:

*"There’s a movement to remove the idea of ‘stigma’ altogether. This goes hand-in-hand with the attempt to blur the lines between good and evil, right and wrong.

Some things i.e., alcoholism]* SHOULD carry a stigma. Sin still is, and always will be, sin, no matter what our current society ‘celebrates.’"

Sailor Kenshin quotes:

**Originally Posted by marietta:]
*"Have you come to understand that ‘current society’ (whatever that is) actually celebrates the loss of self-respect, of relationships, of businesses, economic security, communion with God, and the loss of His daily grace through the ‘sin’ of alcoholism?

"That view is borne of a pathetic lack of information and is totally devoid of compassion.

“marietta” ***

Sailor Kenshin asks:

“Whose view is that? Please explain.”

Sailor Kenshin:
**
Do you or do you not believe alcoholism is a sin? Do you or do you not believe that alcoholism should have a stigma attached to it?

A simple yes or no would be refreshing.

marietta**

I don’t quite understand the nature of your questioning.

Do you believe that sin exists?

 

[marietta]

Sailor Kenshin:

I’ll try again:

You have said, “some things SHOULD carry a stigma”.

**My first question to you: Do you believe alcoholism should carry a stigma?

You have said, “Sin still is, and always will be, sin, no matter what our current society ‘celebrates.’”

**My second question to you: Do you believe that our current American society/culture “celebrates” alcoholism?

**My third question to you: *What do you mean by “the nature” of *my questioning? There is no “nature” to my questioning - the questions are succinct and purposeful. Remove the fuzzy “nature” part and address the questions frankly - it’s not so painful that way.

To answer your question: I do believe sin exists. However, I do not believe alcoholism is a sin; nor do I believe that diabetes, Tay Sachs or schizophrenia is a sin.

marietta

 

[marietta]

Michael David writes:

*"marietta Quote “Does forgiveness have a price tag?”

It’s called Gratitude!"*

Michael David also writes:

“As for the price to pay for forgiveness…
For me, that price has been paid in the misery of the sin (wrong)… the forgiveness brings the Gratitude and Freedom back.”

Let’s see. We pay for forgiveness with Gratitude . . . or we pay for forgiveness in the misery of the sin (wrong) . . . and forgiveness brings the Gratitude back . . .

I don’t know, man. I think you’re getting ripped off.

marietta

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The prediliction to alcoholism can be genetic, or it can be a result of a mother’s drinking/drugging while the child is in utero. These of course are not sinful choices on the part of the child.

Diabetes can be genetic. It can also be ‘fostered’ more quickly through bad habits such as lack of exercise and gluttony. The genetic component is not sinful. Even the lack of exercise or the overindulgence in sweets/starches may not be objectively sinful.

BUT: If a person, no matter how the ‘prediliction’ or the ‘genetics’ or the habits etc. came about, deliberately and with a conscious act of will chooses to drink to the point of alcoholism, or to ingest sweets/starches knowing that his/her blood sugar is already too high. . .that is sinful.

We have choices. . .even when we are in the grip of addictions. We might have to do some pretty difficult things --we might need a lot of help. We might have to be in rehab, ‘relearn’ behaviors, make plans, have sponsors, change our lifestyles, even leave family and friends who are contributing to our addictions in some way–but a person who is alcoholic and is reaching for a six pack, or a diabetic who is reaching for a gallon of ice cream–is NOT INCAPABLE of resisting the pulls of the addictions/ cravings.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

There are people who would have you believe that accidentally getting tipsy once or twice is a sin.

However, far too often, we get these scenarios: eat until they have to lift you with a crane? Not your fault. You have an eating disorder!

Habitually get drunk? That’s not your fault! You’re an alcoholic.

Nothing is anyone’s fault any more. No right or wrong, no good or evil. Molest a child? Commit serial murder? Not your fault! You have a genetic predisposition! Maybe there’s a twelve-step program for that, maybe not. Who are we to judge?

 

[marietta]

Tantum ergo:

"Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks—drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery . . . I do not hold with those who believe that alcoholism is entirely a problem of mental control. I have had many men who had, for example, worked a period of months on some problem or business deal which was to be settled on a certain date, favorably to them. They took a drink a day or so prior to the date, and then the phenomenon of craving at once became paramount to all other interests so that the important appointment was not met. These men were not drinking to escape; they were drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control.
*
There are many situations which arise out of the phenomenon of craving which cause men to make the supreme sacrifice rather than continue to fight."* - William D. Silkworth, M.D., The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous

“We have choices,” you claim, “. . .even when we are in the grip of addictions.”

An addict’s choices are fairly limited: coke or meth? Vodka or scotch? Pie or cake?

You do not have a grasp of the insidious power of addiction. The addict does not call the shots: the substance does.

Perhaps one can make oneself a drunk or junkie, I don’t know; there are more factors involved than the substance itself. I suspect that the numbers of self-made addicts and alcoholics would be fairly small in comparison to the total number of “native addicts and alcoholics” who suffer through every hour of every day. How can one judge whether their use of their drugs of choice is sinful? Why is it necessary to judge this at all?

It interests me to read the bias shown by those whose lives have not been marred by the destructiveness of these illnesses. Just another Pollyanna view from up on the hill, casting a glowering eye upon those who already suffer enough of life’s indignities and losses. I wanted to see if modern Catholics are still as rigid as I remember from 1960. You all have yet to disappoint.

marietta

 

[marietta]

Sailor Kenshin:

Would you please do me the very great honour of directly answering the questions I have asked you? Your flip responses insult the seriousness of the topic.

marietta

 

[Michael_David]

Marietta, you have said “I don’t know, man. I think you’re getting ripped off.”
This on Forgiveness and the price paid for it. I said the misery and Gratitude… and I will stand by it. For the simple reason that the misery (payment) leads to the forgiveness, and at the time of forgiveness a simple “Thank You” (gratitude)(final payment) happens. And all that is asked (in my case) is a “Go, and sin no more”… how can I not be Grateful for that? If in your case, it’s the group, or someone/something else that pulled you out till the ‘light bulb’ happened, and the inner thank you happened, do they/it ask anything more of you then “go, and drink no more”?

Now it becomes the HOW to do that.

And I do believe being an alcoholic is living contrary to the First Commandment. As, in the throws of the addiction, the drug of choice is ones god… it does it all for them, what they could or would not be able to do without it. (The slow road to full powerlessness).

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Gee, Marietta, thanks for ‘assuming’ that I have absolutely no experience of addictions for myself or my family and a “Pollyanna” viewpoint, while you quote **one **doctor.

Looks as though you have bought into the view that ‘addictions’ are so powerful that the person simply ‘cannot help him/herself’.

Which is news, I’m sure, to the thousands and even hundreds of thousands of people who have struggled with addictions, and are living in recovery for months, years, and even decades. Still struggling with the cravings but managing with God’s help, with the help of friends, counselors, programs, and above all their own cooperation with the above in defiance of those powerful cravings.

Every one of those people were once overcome by addiction. . . overmastered by cravings, physical and emotional, extraordinarily difficult to fight. . .but not then, or now, impossible to fight.

I don’t think you give people enough credit. Making them ‘victims’ who ‘can’t help themselves’ might make it easier to ‘excuse’ those who are not (yet) making the right choice to fight the addictions. .but it surely does not help them. Leaving them drunk or high with the excuse that “poor dear can’t help it, it’s too strong for them, don’t blame them” makes the assumption that people are going to make a blanket judgment that people who are addicts are either ‘completely not to be blamed because they can’t help it’ or else “completely blameworthy because they refuse to help themselves”.

However, the truth of the matter is that most people are intelligent enough to realize that those who are addicts should not be treated as objects of pity **or **derision, but as individual people who need help. They bear some responsibility for their situation (and that can vary–a child addicted in utero is very different from a grown man who, from boredom alone, gets addicted to heroin) yet they are not to be treated as if they were **only **‘the addiction’ --only the ‘crack addict’–but rather to be treated as the persons they are --persons who have problems and need help.

And most people who work with people with problems like this are neither ‘enabling excusers’ or ‘judgmental bigots’ (thankfully). Which is why they can get annoyed as much by those who bleat of how it is everybody’s fault but the one addicted for his addiction, as those who storm that it is **nobody’s **fault but the one addicted for his addiction.

 

[marietta]

Michael David:

Misery is not “payment for forgiveness”: it is a consequence of destructive behavior. If misery leads one to feel remorse, then it is a catalyst for the need of, and the asking for, forgiveness.

Gratitude occurs when one experiences humility enough to ask for, and experience, God’s forgiveness.

(Please note that not all who feel misery, remorse, and a desire to change their ways of living call upon God for forgiveness, and some do recover without basing their recovery steps on God.)

All I am trying to do is put these things in a timeline that works.

marietta

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

It interests me to read the bias shown by those whose lives have not been marred by the destructiveness of these illnesses. Just another Pollyanna view from up on the hill, casting a glowering eye upon those who already suffer enough of life’s indignities and losses. I wanted to see if modern Catholics are still as rigid as I remember from 1960. You all have yet to disappoint.

marietta

How in Hades do YOU know who has suffered what on this board? Pot, meet kettle.

 

[marietta]

Tantum ergo:

So let’s hear it: share your experience.

*“Looks as though you have bought into the view that ‘addictions’ are so powerful that the person simply ‘cannot help him/herself’,” *you say. I have “bought into” nothing. I speak as an alcoholic, who was “raised” in an alcoholic family; I speak as a drunk who has sponsored drunks within the Fellowship of Alcoholics anonymous; I speak as someone is currently sponsoring opiate addicts who are multiple felons and are working their 12-Step programs in order to come closer to reality, closer to authenticity in their lives, and closer to God.

“Every one of those people were once overcome by addiction. . . overmastered by cravings, physical and emotional, extraordinarily difficult to fight. . .but not then, or now, impossible to fight,” you tell us. If these people were overcome and overmastered, then they were, in fact, powerless. A fortunate few are blessed with a timely epiphany which guides them back to life. The rest get locked up or covered up behind the addiction.

Nobody makes a drunk or an addict a victim. These people are suffering with obsessive/compulsive addictions. As I said, it’s possible to be just a heavy drinker or a recreational drug user and never become an addict. But for those who turn that corner and are sucked into the vortex of dependence, the luxury of choice is over.

You say, *"[These individuals who need help] bear some responsibility for their situation (and that can vary–a child addicted in utero is very different from a grown man who, from boredom alone, gets addicted to heroin) yet they are not to be treated as if they were only ‘the addiction’ --only the ‘crack addict’–but rather to be treated as the persons they are --persons who have problems and need help." *

Yes, these people need help. Have you ever tried to “help” an active drunk or addict who is not ready for help? Try it. It’s a frustrating and depressing eye-opener. They cannot, they will not, seek help until all avenues of trying to maintain the illusion of control have evaporated.

And how, pray tell, is a child addicted in utero in any way responsible for his or her addiction at birth?

Sorry, Tantum ergo, but you just came on like a normie. If you have suffered addiction, or if someone in your family or extended family has suffered addiction - true addiction and not recreational dalliance, I do pray that you make an attempt to understand the phenomenon of craving and the inside nature of addiction. To the outsider it looks like willful misconduct. To the insider it is a mental, physical and spiritual slow death brought on by an inability to manage the obsession and compulsion.

And that ONE DOCTOR? Check out “The Doctor’s Opinion” in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. Maybe some of what he has to say will ring a bell with you.

**Sailor Kenshin: **

*“How in Hades do YOU know who has suffered what on this board?” *

Care to share your drunkalogue? I only know what you people tell me. If you don’t share your experiences, then the forum reader can only be impressed by your thoughts and opinions. So share, already.

marietta

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, Marietta, I have this feeling that no matter what other people post (including me), you would either tell us that for some reason “we” had a totally ‘different’ experience from the average addict, that for some reason whatever addiction “we” had wasn’t as serious, as longstanding, etc. as yours or someone else’s; etc.

This thread has already traveled a bit off topic. I was attempting to give a counter to your post (which it needed) that tied in to the original post. . .not to engage in what might (historically speaking) escalate into a battle for verbal one-up-manship of who ‘really knows’ what s/he is talking about.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Gee, Marietta, thanks for ‘assuming’ that I have absolutely no experience of addictions for myself or my family and a “Pollyanna” viewpoint, while you quote **one **doctor.

Looks as though you have bought into the view that ‘addictions’ are so powerful that the person simply ‘cannot help him/herself’.

Which is news, I’m sure, to the thousands and even hundreds of thousands of people who have struggled with addictions, and are living in recovery for months, years, and even decades. Still struggling with the cravings but managing with God’s help, with the help of friends, counselors, programs, and above all their own cooperation with the above in defiance of those powerful cravings.

Every one of those people were once overcome by addiction. . . overmastered by cravings, physical and emotional, extraordinarily difficult to fight. . .but not then, or now, impossible to fight.

I don’t think you give people enough credit. Making them ‘victims’ who ‘can’t help themselves’ might make it easier to ‘excuse’ those who are not (yet) making the right choice to fight the addictions. .but it surely does not help them. Leaving them drunk or high with the excuse that “poor dear can’t help it, it’s too strong for them, don’t blame them” makes the assumption that people are going to make a blanket judgment that people who are addicts are either ‘completely not to be blamed because they can’t help it’ or else “completely blameworthy because they refuse to help themselves”.

However, the truth of the matter is that most people are intelligent enough to realize that those who are addicts should not be treated as objects of pity **or **derision, but as individual people who need help. They bear some responsibility for their situation (and that can vary–a child addicted in utero is very different from a grown man who, from boredom alone, gets addicted to heroin) yet they are not to be treated as if they were **only **‘the addiction’ --only the ‘crack addict’–but rather to be treated as the persons they are --persons who have problems and need help.

And most people who work with people with problems like this are neither ‘enabling excusers’ or ‘judgmental bigots’ (thankfully). Which is why they can get annoyed as much by those who bleat of how it is everybody’s fault but the one addicted for his addiction, as those who storm that it is **nobody’s **fault but the one addicted for his addiction.

I happen to agree with you.