Is drinking a sin?

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Marietta said, “All I am trying to do is put these things in a timeline that works.”

If you have worked with addict’s, in the various roles you say you have, you should know no two have followed the same exact route as the other’s. Generally yes, specifically no. Are you trying to get to a specific put into general terms or conditions?

And since when I pay out, I get something in return… I look at the misery as the pay outs for the return of forgiveness. It’s just the way I look at it. It’s merely a comparison.

And yes, ego and humility do not go together very well. As you say about the one’s who have not hit bottom yet. PS: it happens to some who have been in the program a long time also, the ego starts to re-inflate and humility diminish… next comes relapse. It’s like the memory of the misery play’s tricks on the mind, thru time, and looses it’s effect for resolve.

Hence the ‘where I was, where I am and how I got there’ reminders.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Well, Marietta, I have this feeling that no matter what other people post (including me), you would either tell us that for some reason “we” had a totally ‘different’ experience from the average addict, that for some reason whatever addiction “we” had wasn’t as serious, as longstanding, etc. as yours or someone else’s; etc.

This thread has already traveled a bit off topic. I was attempting to give a counter to your post (which it needed) that tied in to the original post. . .not to engage in what might (historically speaking) escalate into a battle for verbal one-up-manship of who ‘really knows’ what s/he is talking about.
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It’s a good thing that feelings are not facts.

I claim no exclusivity - I share my experience. You only allude to yours, which fails to shed any light on the subject and hinders learning from the posts on this subject.

In a round-about manner, I agree with Michael David, drunks and addicts must follow a custom-made path to sobriety, if sobriety is indeed what they choose. But we can listen to the stories of those who are in different stages of recovery and understand that through discovering so many similarities we are able to create and belong to a unique and loving fellowship. If we concentrate on the similarities rather than the differences we can appreciate one another’s struggles and integrate into our own sobriety the methods, prayers and illustrative anecdotes through which others have found success.

Yes, the loss of sobriety can often be attributed to a gain of ego and self-centeredness (“self-will run riot”); but sometimes even a person with long-term sobriety (years’ worth) can drink at the drop of a hat without thinking of the sacrifice and the consequences. The cause: failure to maintain fit spiritual condition.

("Are you trying to get to a specific put into general terms or conditions?" - Michael David, I don’t know what this question means but I’d be happy to try to answer it if you can elaborate a bit.)

Alcoholism kills people. Recovery is not a contest. All alcoholics’ and addicts’ misery qualifies each to speak with authenticity on the subject, whether a high-bottom or a low-bottom user. If one does not believe or understand how alcoholism can destroy a person without that person’s permission, then maybe one could at least muster up some compassion for those who still suffer. But to stand by and taze those who have the guts to come forward and discuss in frank detail the events which nearly killed them and then brought them back to life - well, just what is that?

magic_stick says:

“Hmmm, I’ll take the red :D” No further than .08, I hope.

marietta
 
But to stand by and taze those who have the guts to come forward and discuss in frank detail the events which nearly killed them and then brought them back to life - well, just what is that?
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If that’s directed at me, where did you get that impression. I said nothing of the kind

If it is directed at other posters specifically, then address them specifically.

If it is just a type of parenthetical remark where you’re trying to imply that anybody who questions your opinion is ‘standing by to taze’ etc., I’ll echo you–just what is *that *all about?

I thought we were trying to stick to the original post.
 
So to address the original post:

Individuals have different tolerances for alcohol. Also, by and large, men can drink slightly more than women do. The old standard used to be that a 120 pound woman with no other ‘factors’ such as alcoholism, or other drug interactions, could drink 2 small alcoholic drinks ( two 12 ounce beers, two 1 oz. liquors, two small glasses of wine) over a 2 hour period without reaching the ‘legal’ definition of over 0.08%. Drinking on an empty stomach, or drinking very quickly, can bring on the effects of alcohol more quickly. Caffeine (despite stories) does not ‘negate’ alcohol, nor do cold showers. Time is the key.

So the average woman is probably wise to stick to two drinks like the above, in the average evening, and to drink them slowly, and also to nibble on some protein-rich foods. Cheese is good. Pizza is excellent (LOL). The average man is wise to stick to 2 1/2 drinks in the same period, no more than 3, and to exercise the same precautions. . .slow ingestion, with food.

Now, most people are very well aware of the guidelines for safe drinking, and of the possible bad effects of drinking too much. So if they ‘ignore’ the guidelines they could be acting sinfully. The degree of culpability is individual and I don’t intend to go into all the many nuances. But things like ‘a few’ need to be clarified. A 200 pound man drinking 4 drinks in 3 hours might be over the ‘average’ but he could be well aware that being ‘larger’, he can safely take more alcohol than a 160 pound man, and still be at the safe limit. Another 200 pound man drinking 4 drinks in 3 hours because he was angry and upset over something, wasn’t aware that 4 drinks for his weight were ‘within the limit’ and really thought that drinking more than 2 drinks was not recommended for him, but did it because of the anger. . .even though he is likely not to be in danger of being drunk, is still likely objectively sinning because he thought that he was going over the limit and did it anyway. . .out of anger.

When in doubt. . .consult a parent, a competent medical professional or other counselor. . .or a trusted clergy. . . and pray for guidance.
 
Tantum ergo:

**“Well, Marietta, I have this feeling that no matter what other people post (including me), you would either tell us that for some reason “we” had a totally ‘different’ experience from the average addict, that for some reason whatever addiction “we” had wasn’t as serious, as longstanding, etc. as yours or someone else’s; etc.” **

I consider this to be an insolent remark about my character, not about the topic at hand. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, even if it does have its origin in unawareness. Now, if you are a drunk or an addict, or are married to one or the other, or your uncle George fell down the stairs once on Christmas Day because of too much eggnog, or your second cousin twice removed had a DUI three years ago even though he had only had one drink at the company party, please, *please *chime in. I would love to hear how addiction has personally impacted your life and how you have come to the conclusion that an active user always has the choice to put the habit down, that willpower ought to be enough, that if he had any sense he’d see that he was ruining his life, and that alcoholic or addictive behaviors, such as they truly are, are sinful.

Okay, good. Did you read Michael David’s post? The one about how drunks and addicts all take their own road to sobriety if they want sobriety? He describes these individuals as unique. In your most recent post you describe the AVERAGE drinking person. A true alcoholic or a real addict is anything but AVERAGE. We don’t count drinks, we don’t nurse drinks, we don’t share blow, we protect our stash because it is more important than money, food, sex or love. An alcoholic has no concept of the “guidelines” to which you refer: there are no guidelines. In my case, I got up at 6:30 a.m. to the sound of my husband dropping ice into a lowball glass. I got myself a tumbler and filled it halfway (that was the optimist part of me), and we would sit in the living room all morning drinking scotch and watching MAS*H on t.v. Sometimes we’d be there all day long, until it was time to go out to -]eat/-] drink. Then we would go home, sleep for 2 hours, and go to the bar. Day in and day out, until I had to go on the road for 3 or 4 weeks to make a living. I’d come home and we’d do the same thing again until I had to go back out again. And I made a living singing - sometimes in very nice places, like the Kennedy Center or the Governor’s Mansion in Austin, Texas. But mostly I was in night clubs and bars and honky tonks. There were no guidelines in any of those places, and even if there were, they were bashed just on principle.

An angry person can drink to excess. But an alcoholic can and does drink for any reason - the sun came up, I didn’t get a bill in the mail, my mother-in-law is not coming for a visit, my brother had a car wreck, I just lost a baby, it’s a full moon, I got a bonus check from my boss . . . it doesn’t matter what the occasion, it’s either a celebration or a wake. And it’s 24/7. And it can’t be stopped from outside. And most times it can’t be stopped with any longevity from the inside.

The drinkers to whom you refer in your post are those who populate the highways on New Year’s Eve: amateurs. To see the alcoholic and the addict one has to look at him first.

marietta
 
Here is a saying that my dad gave to me when I asked this question. **It is not the use but the abuse that is wrong. ** Even Jesus changed water into wine and also used wine at the last supper to become his blood. If God gives us this, how can it be wrong. All God’s gifts are good. We as sinful humans can change them into occasions of sin, through abuse and misuse.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
marietta said:
Tantum ergo:

"Men and women drink essentially because they like the effect produced by alcohol. The sensation is so elusive that, while they admit it is injurious, they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false. To them, their alcoholic life seems the only normal one. They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again experience the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few drinks—drinks which they see others taking with impunity. After they have succumbed to the desire again, as so many do, and the phenomenon of craving develops, they pass through the well-known stages of a spree, emerging remorseful, with a firm resolution not to drink again. This is repeated over and over, and unless this person can experience an entire psychic change there is very little hope of his recovery . . . I do not hold with those who believe that alcoholism is entirely a problem of mental control. I have had many men who had, for example, worked a period of months on some problem or business deal which was to be settled on a certain date, favorably to them. They took a drink a day or so prior to the date, and then the phenomenon of craving at once became paramount to all other interests so that the important appointment was not met. These men were not drinking to escape; they were drinking to overcome a craving beyond their mental control.
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There are many situations which arise out of the phenomenon of craving which cause men to make the supreme sacrifice rather than continue to fight."* - William D. Silkworth, M.D., The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous

“We have choices,” you claim, “. . .even when we are in the grip of addictions.”

An addict’s choices are fairly limited: coke or meth? Vodka or scotch? Pie or cake?

You do not have a grasp of the insidious power of addiction. The addict does not call the shots: the substance does.

Perhaps one can make oneself a drunk or junkie, I don’t know; there are more factors involved than the substance itself. I suspect that the numbers of self-made addicts and alcoholics would be fairly small in comparison to the total number of “native addicts and alcoholics” who suffer through every hour of every day. How can one judge whether their use of their drugs of choice is sinful? Why is it necessary to judge this at all?

It interests me to read the bias shown by those whose lives have not been marred by the destructiveness of these illnesses. Just another Pollyanna view from up on the hill, casting a glowering eye upon those who already suffer enough of life’s indignities and losses. I wanted to see if modern Catholics are still as rigid as I remember from 1960. You all have yet to disappoint.

marietta
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What a load of it! Addicts choose to keep using. They choose to ruin the lives of everyone around them. They choose to put themselves and their cravings before everything else, including their kids, spouses, etc. They get in a car and take innocent lives. They choose to commit crimes to support their habits. They choose not to get help. Modern psychobabble would take all responsibility away from people - essentially taking away the free will that God gave us - and make everything into a “disease.”

Of course there should be a stigma about being alcoholic or a drug addict. Has moral relativism gone so far that the worst, most anti-social behavior can now be excused by calling it a “disease.” God gave people a free will. That means people can choose sin - and become slaves to sin. Does that mean we hate the sinner? NO! But we hate the sin! And making excuses for the sin in order to justify it is not being charitable to the sinner. Saying someone has an addiction does not excuse their behavior. As much as they don’t want to admit it, they are responsible for their actions. If they drunk drive and kill a child - they killed a child. Saying they have a “disease” doesn’t excuse their actions and it won’t undo the damage they have done to other people through their sinful behavior.

And this is no Pollyanna view from up on any hill looking down on the poor suffering addicts. I’ve seen all kinds of addictions up close and personal and the destruction they can wreak in peoples’ lives.
 
Mea Culpa:

I did not say that alcoholics and addicts are not responsible for the consequences of their actions.

I said that they are in the grip of an obsession and a compulsion, that their behavior is not illustrative of willful misconduct.

Addicts and alcoholics do not “choose to ruin the lives of everyone around them.” They simply don’t give a damn about the lives of anyone around them - other people and their concerns are not the primary focus of the drunk or junkie. If people get hurt, that’s too bad, we think; but first and foremost in the mind of every abuser is the next fix, the next drink.

“I’ve seen all kinds of addictions up close and personal and the destruction they can wreak in peoples’ lives,” you tell us. Yes, the destruction is considerable, particularly to the abusers. Have you ever watched a drunk guard his barstool instead of going home to his wife and newborn? I have. I experienced it in my own sobriety after my ex-husband’s slip. Not pretty. I also had years and years of experiencing the craving phenomenon that Dr. Silkworth describes in the Big Book. Without a spiritual awakening there is scant hope of recovery. I was lucky; I was given the blessing of clarity, enough to make the changes necessary to become sober and productive.

What can you do, what will you do, to effect such a change in someone? Since you believe the obsession and compulsion to drink or use is willful misconduct, bad behavior, or selfishness, what are you willing to do to help the suffering addict/alkie overcome this bad behavior?

marietta
 
There are those who would do away with the concept of good and evil altogether, abolish even the thought of sin, and reduce all humanity to a set of mere behaviorial tics treatable with pills and potions.

The medical profession is NOT above this. They have their own agenda.
 
Sailor Kenshin:

a) Who are “those who would do away with the concept of good and evil altogether, abolish even the thought of sin, and reduce all humanity to a set of mere behaviorial tics treatable with pills and potions.”?

b) Aside from the medical profession and their alleged “agenda”, how does your postulation pertain directly to alcoholism and addiction?, and

c) Do you believe that drinking is a sin?

Can you be more specific? Thanks.

marietta
 
I would like to take the opportunity to respond that if I was in any way ‘insolent’ or hurtful to any poster, it was unknowing on my part and unintended.

I do however stand by my posts regarding the nature of alcoholism, drinking and potential for sinfulness, etc. And as well, may we always be mindful of the suffering of others and do our best always to help alleviate that suffering in the name of Jesus our Savior.
 
Tantum ergo:

What would you personally do to help alleviate the suffering of the active alcoholic or drug addict? In your mind, what do you think would help? I take this out of the prayer realm, because I do believe prayer can be effective insofar as asking for intercession, but what physical actions could you take to assist the poor soul who still suffers?

marietta
 
marietta said:
Certainly not this one.

Would you consider going back and answering the original poster’s question and explain why you believe your response to be correct?

marietta
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Drinking in moderation is not a sin in and of itself, depending upon the circumstances. For minors, it is a sin. For people on medications that could interact with alcohol it is a sin. For people performing jobs that involve the safety of others where alcohol would impair their ability to do the job, it is a sin. (airline pilot, surgeon, etc.) For alcoholics, it is a sin.

Drinking to intoxication is a sin.

Drinking to intoxication repeatedly to the point where you become addicted to alcohol is definitely a sin - at this point, you’ve become a slave to sin.

As far as people who are already trapped in this slavery to sin, telling people it’s not their fault, they’re not responsible, they have a “disease” isn’t going to help them. Trying to shield them from the consequences of their actions isn’t going to help them. They only have a chance at recovery if they really want it. We have to tell them the truth about what they’re doing to themselves and the people around them. We have to let them experience the consequences of their actions. We have to protect ourselves and the ones we love from their destructive behavior. We have to pray for them. Other than that, what can we do?
 
Physical actions?

It depends on the individual. I’m not a social worker or a physician so obviously I cannot ‘refer’ a person to (name removed by moderator)atient or outpatient detox, or prescribe medication or therapy.

However, there is a lot that I can do in both general and specific senses. . .contributing with time and/or money to all sorts of programs for addicts and their families.

Is it going to work for every single person 100% of the time? No. . . but each time I do something it just might be the time a given person decides to ‘go for the help.’ So I keep offering it.

But sticking to the topic, about drinking being a sin (which it certainly can be, and I have detailed possibilities, though obviously not ‘comprehensively’, in other posts), certainly as Christians we should be trying not only to steer people away from sin (or near occasions of sin) but we should also be trying to deal with the consequences of sin. . .mitigating as much as possible, helping people to make reparations, recognizing the sin and helping them to fight the sin, etc.
 
Mea Culpa:

What is moderation? Drinking up to the point of *likely *intoxication? Who determines the level of intoxication? Law enforcement routinely locks up people who blow 0.08 on the Breathalyzer and yet many of these people are perfectly capable of driving, or negotiating a big business deal, or standing at the altar to say “I do”. That doesn’t make it right, legal, or smart. But that is the alarming truth.

“As far as people who are already trapped in this slavery to sin, telling people it’s not their fault, they’re not responsible, they have a “disease” isn’t going to help them.”

Alcoholics are always responsible for the havoc they wreak in their personal lives, their professional lives, their spiritual and emotional lives. I agree that we should not attempt to shield them from the consequences of their actions. I agree that they only have a chance at recovery if they really want it. Protecting onself and one’s family from the destructive behaviors of the active alcoholic and addict is extremely prudent. Prayer is an excellent choice in the arsenal against the progressive demons of alcoholism and drug addiction.
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“Other than that, what can we do?”* you ask.

Make an effort to learn about alcoholism. Update your antiquated “understanding” of this malady; misinformation and judgment borne of ignorance is killing drunks every day. You write as if you truly believe the active drunk or addict has a choice about picking up the next substance. Who on earth would choose to live this way? Go to a few open AA meetings and just listen. One meeting may not give you a full picture of recovery, so try a few. Listen for those with long-term sobriety. An AA meeting can be one of most inspiring, revitalizing gatherings on earth. And God is there, so you won’t feel like you’ve walked into a den of iniquity.

AA has morning meetings, afternoon meetings, evening meetings, midnight meetings; they have smoking and non smoking, speaker’s meetings, beginner’s meetings, Big Book study meetings - is there really any reason not to investigate this?

I submit that there is not.

marietta
 
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