Is drinking a sin?

[Mea_Culpa]

Mea Culpa:

What is moderation? Drinking up to the point of *likely *intoxication? Who determines the level of intoxication? Law enforcement routinely locks up people who blow 0.08 on the Breathalyzer and yet many of these people are perfectly capable of driving, or negotiating a big business deal, or standing at the altar to say “I do”. That doesn’t make it right, legal, or smart. But that is the alarming truth.

“As far as people who are already trapped in this slavery to sin, telling people it’s not their fault, they’re not responsible, they have a “disease” isn’t going to help them.”

Alcoholics are always responsible for the havoc they wreak in their personal lives, their professional lives, their spiritual and emotional lives. I agree that we should not attempt to shield them from the consequences of their actions. I agree that they only have a chance at recovery if they really want it. Protecting onself and one’s family from the destructive behaviors of the active alcoholic and addict is extremely prudent. Prayer is an excellent choice in the arsenal against the progressive demons of alcoholism and drug addiction.
*
“Other than that, what can we do?”* you ask.

Make an effort to learn about alcoholism. Update your antiquated “understanding” of this malady; misinformation and judgment borne of ignorance is killing drunks every day. You write as if you truly believe the active drunk or addict has a choice about picking up the next substance. Who on earth would choose to live this way? Go to a few open AA meetings and just listen. One meeting may not give you a full picture of recovery, so try a few. Listen for those with long-term sobriety. An AA meeting can be one of most inspiring, revitalizing gatherings on earth. And God is there, so you won’t feel like you’ve walked into a den of iniquity.

AA has morning meetings, afternoon meetings, evening meetings, midnight meetings; they have smoking and non smoking, speaker’s meetings, beginner’s meetings, Big Book study meetings - is there really any reason not to investigate this?

I submit that there is not.

marietta

Why are you posting this nonsense? My judgment or ignorance (as you call it) is not killing any drunks - they are killing themselves and other people in the process. You’re the one that doesn’t know what you’re talking about. You say someone with a blood alcohol level of .08 is perfectly capable of driving. Is that how you justify it to yourself? You shouldn’t be driving at that level of intoxication. Please get help before you kill someone.

You keep saying that you can’t stop, that it’s an addiction. You have to admit to yourself that you are powerless and give yourself over to Jesus Christ. You yourself cannot stop, but with God all things are possible. I will pray for you.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Certainly not this one.

Would you consider going back and answering the original poster’s question and explain why you believe your response to be correct?

marietta

What degree of answer would satisfy you?

 

[marietta]

]Sailor Kenshin:

I don’t know what you mean by "What degree of answer would satisfy you?" Do answers come in degrees?

Mea Culpa writes:

*"Why are you posting this nonsense? My judgment or ignorance (as you call it) is not killing any drunks - they are killing themselves and other people in the process. You’re the one that doesn’t know what you’re talking about. You say someone with a blood alcohol level of .08 is perfectly capable of driving. Is that how you justify it to yourself? You shouldn’t be driving at that level of intoxication. Please get help before you kill someone.

You keep saying that you can’t stop, that it’s an addiction. You have to admit to yourself that you are powerless and give yourself over to Jesus Christ. You yourself cannot stop, but with God all things are possible. I will pray for you."*

**1. Nothing that I have posted is nonsense.
2. Ignorance kills, stigma kills, just plain stupidity kills. Take your pick and run with it.
3. Yes, drunks are killing themselves. Yes, they are killing other people in the process. However, if you understood the progressive nature of alcoholism, the phenomenon of drug tolerance, or even anything remotely connected to addiction, you could easily understand how an alcoholic, having drunk enough to blow a 0.08, could drive his car, go skeet shooting, or shoot pool with the same accuracy as if he were completely unimpaired. 0.08 would be an insult to him. When I was in my twenties I was pulled over for driving at night without my headlights on. I had been drinking all afternoon; I had drunk eight martinis in less than three hours. I passed a field sobriety test in Fredericks of Hollywood stilettoes, including walking a straight line, touching my nose with my head tilted back and my arms straight out at my sides, and reciting the alphabet backwards. I was not arrested. My blood alcohol level was somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.3. I drank like this every single day. When I was unemployed I never got dressed and I drove in my '54 Studebaker to the drive-in liquor store in my bathrobe.

Sound outrageous? It is. I squandered 18 years of my life hopelessly shackled to booze and drugs of all kinds. You suggest that I admit I am powerless, and then you turn around and tell me the alcoholic and the addict are making choices to behave badly. How is it that a powerless person enjoys the luxury of choice??

I never said that *I *cannot stop using and drinking. I am not currently driving intoxicated. I did admit that I was powerless over alcohol. I turned my life over to the care of God as I understood - and understand - Him, and that was not Jesus Christ. I agree that with God all things are possible. I have been continuously sober since July 15, 1984. I know precisely what I’m talking about.

Please don’t pray for me - just go to a meeting and check it out for yourself.

marietta**

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Why would you not want people to pray for you?

 

[Mea_Culpa]

1. Nothing that I have posted is nonsense.
2. Ignorance kills, stigma kills, just plain stupidity kills. Take your pick and run with it.
3. Yes, drunks are killing themselves. Yes, they are killing other people in the process. However, if you understood the progressive nature of alcoholism, the phenomenon of drug tolerance, or even anything remotely connected to addiction, you could easily understand how an alcoholic, having drunk enough to blow a 0.08, could drive his car, go skeet shooting, or shoot pool with the same accuracy as if he were completely unimpaired. 0.08 would be an insult to him. When I was in my twenties I was pulled over for driving at night without my headlights on. I had been drinking all afternoon; I had drunk eight martinis in less than three hours. I passed a field sobriety test in Fredericks of Hollywood stilettoes, including walking a straight line, touching my nose with my head tilted back and my arms straight out at my sides, and reciting the alphabet backwards. I was not arrested. My blood alcohol level was somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.3. I drank like this every single day. When I was unemployed I never got dressed and I drove in my '54 Studebaker to the drive-in liquor store in my bathrobe.

Sounds like you’re bragging.
marietta;4204700:

Sound outrageous? It is

. I squandered 18 years of my life hopelessly shackled to booze and drugs of all kinds. You suggest that I admit I am powerless, and then you turn around and tell me the alcoholic and the addict are making choices to behave badly. How is it that a powerless person enjoys the luxury of choice??

You chose to stop. Are you saying you’re better than all the other alcoholics? If you can do it, why can’t they?

I never said that *I *

cannot stop using and drinking. I am not currently driving intoxicated. I did admit that I was powerless over alcohol. I turned my life over to the care of God as I understood - and understand - Him, and that was not Jesus Christ. I agree that with God all things are possible. I have been continuously sober since July 15, 1984. I know precisely what I’m talking about.

I’m glad you abandoned your sinful ways. I hope others choose to do the same.

Please don’t pray for me - just go to a meeting and check it out for yourself.

I’m not sure why you think I should go to an AA meeting. I don’t drink. I learned everything I need to know about it growing up with an alcoholic father. If you think your story about driving to the liquor store in your bathrobe is shocking to me, you’d better think again.

You admit that you made a choice to stop. You finally took responsibility for your actions. I would guess that something happened that scared you or made you realize you were flushing your life down the toilet. Did you kill someone while drunk driving or something like that? Whatever it was, it forced you to see your sinful behavior for what it was - sin - and resolve to stop doing it.

It’s like the Mass reading for today from Isaiah said:

Seek the Lord while he may be found,
call him while he is near.
Let the scoundrel forsake his way,
and the wicked his thoughts;
let him turn to the Lord for mercy;
to our God, who is generous in forgiving.

Will “the scoundrel forsake his way” if we tell him that he’s not to blame, he has a “disease” so he’s not responsible for his actions? If the scoundrel doesn’t forsake his way, can he receive the mercy of the Lord?

So, are we doing the scoundrel a favor by lying to him via psychobabble and saying, “it’s OK, we know you have no choice, it’s not your fault, poor you, you’re really the victim.”

If we do that, we are condemning the scoundrel (or the drunk) to his slavery to sin, and to accountability for that sin when he stands before the Lord.

And, according to Ezekiel, we are also condemning ourselves:

If I say to the wicked, O wicked man, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn away from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. But if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way; he shall die in his iniquity, but you will have saved your life. (Ezekiel 33: 8-9)

And feel free to pray for me. I need all the help I can get.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

And feel free to pray for me. I need all the help I can get.

Done.

 

[Coder]

Michael David:

Have you considered a genetic predisposition to alcoholism or other substance addictions?
marietta

Excuse me but since original sin we are all “genetically predisposed” to sin in general.

 

[marietta]

Mea Culpa,

No bragging. This is typical behavior for someone within the grip of the insanity of alcoholism and drug addiction.

Not saying I’m better than anyone, especially others who are similarly afflicted.

My behaviors may have been considered sinful, as I was breaking the law, but they were fueled by the disease of alcoholism, which is a physical, mental and spiritual sickness.

Hoping others choose to do the same is a non-action. If you grew up with an alcoholic father, you did not escape unscathed. AA might actually help you to understand what happened to him and to find peace with it. If you’ve not processed your experiences with him in some way, then you are one of the walking wounded. AA and Al Anon can help with this.

I just thought the bathrobe story was funny. Why so touchy?

I did not kill anyone else while drinking. I was dying myself. I was fired twice from the same job and finally my employer paid my way through an outpatient program. Were it not for him I would be dead today. Do you consider *that *nonsense?

*"Will ‘the scoundrel forsake his way’ if we tell him that he’s not to blame, he has a ‘disease’ so he’s not responsible for his actions? If the scoundrel doesn’t forsake his way, can he receive the mercy of the Lord?

"So, are we doing the scoundrel a favor by lying to him via psychobabble and saying, ‘it’s OK, we know you have no choice, it’s not your fault, poor you, you’re really the victim.’

“If we do that, we are condemning the scoundrel (or the drunk) to his slavery to sin, and to accountability for that sin when he stands before the Lord.” *

Jesuit Father Francis Jayapathy says, in an article online entitled, “UCAN: Alcoholic Priests Need Treatment, Not Moral Condemnation, Bishops Told” (Catholic Online, www.catholic.org, International News, 9/6/07), *"Alcoholism is a treatable disease and treatment is available, so saying alcoholics cannot be saved is wrong, he insisted. However, relapse is ‘quite common,’ he added, and most treatment centers for alcohol addiction all over the world are only 40 percent successful.

"The relapse rate makes people think there is no hope, he said, and many who accept that alcoholism is an illness still evidence a moralistic attitude.* [my bold]

The World Health Organization and many medical associations list alcoholism as a disease, Father Jayapathy said, but people discount this because medication cannot cure it and, unlike heart disease, cancer, diabetes and the like, they cannot easily conceptualize alcoholism as a disease. [my bold] He then described four characteristics of alcoholism as disease: **craving or compulsion, loss of control, physical dependence and ****the need to drink ever more to ‘get high.’ **A priest signals he is alcoholic by missing appointments, assignments and Masses, and drinking at inappropriate times."

Are these men scoundrels?

It won’t hurt to investigate the truth about alcoholism. It might even help.

marietta

 

[marietta]

Excuse me but since original sin we are all “genetically predisposed” to sin in general.

This comment is a wash and sheds no light on the subject. What point are you trying to make? And why excuse yourself if you believe you have the truth in the palm of your hand?

marietta

 

[Mea_Culpa]

A priest signals he is alcoholic by missing appointments, assignments and Masses, and drinking at inappropriate times."

Are these men scoundrels?

Absolutely. Just like a pedophile priest is a scoundrel. Assigning a label to something doesn’t excuse it.

 

[marietta]

Mea Culpa:

No one mentioned pedophiles. Let’s stay on-topic. On second thought, since you are barricaded behind the “sin” argument, why don’t you and I just let this thing be? You clearly don’t want to know how alcoholics are recovering today, and I have reached the point of diminishing returns in this discussion; so I wish all the drunks and addicts in your circle a hearty “good luck”, and when they wind up on the slab with a toe tag, you can a) chastise them, and b) pray for them.

marietta

 

[Michael_David]

Marietta, Congrads on your sobriety since '84.
As you say, let’s stay on topic.
I recall the ‘early’ days of my drinking… supposedly before I was hooked unless one uses the predisposition factor.
I was somewhat of a shy person > a few drinks made that vanish.
I was somewhat of an introvert > a few drinks helped me be more extrovert.
I was somewhat of a lover (not a fighter) > a few drinks put the sword in the hand to fight back.
I was under the radar to the high achievers in the class > a few drinks game me the courage (gut’s) to compete with them, and be noticed.

There are many ways a few drinks helped me do what I could not do by myself.

Since one is younger and making comparisons to others for ones worth (keep up to the Jones’s), a few drinks put me on the playing field (instead of in the bleachers). The only thing here, I was not being “me” when I had a few drinks, but, it was working to be a more social person (which I wasn’t able to do effectively without a few drinks). Since the result’s were favorable, it was not hurting anyone. HA HA! The ‘Oak’ the Good Lord wanted me to be had turned into ‘Maple’… that is not what was planted. In time, I became no better then a weed. I was not me! Then who was I?

I could go on, but for the sake of the topic, all I will say is that if ‘a few drinks’ are used to change one’s personality (who they are both good and bad), then the potential is there for both a sin and getting hooked in the dis-ease. God made each of us an individual (unique), one is not suppose to be like the other (specifically). Generally we are all God’s Children, are Human, are Male or Female, are our parents kids, are siblings, are parents, are employee’s or employer’s, are Religious or not, etc, etc.

I ‘unwind’ without a drink now, I loosen up without a drink now. It’s the living in the ‘now’ (today), not before or ahead. If I am not at work, it does not bother me; if it is raining out, I get wet; if the Sun is shining I am dry. It’s so simple this way. And yes, I am trying to be what the Good Lord wants me to be (what He planted), with His rain and sunshine, sometimes fertilizer, to help me grow.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

It’s amazing that two people with similar experiences can have different reactions. One can be upbeat and positive and one can turn bitter and cold. God really does grant us free will, even to reject Him.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

Mea Culpa:

No one mentioned pedophiles. Let’s stay on-topic. On second thought, since you are barricaded behind the “sin” argument, why don’t you and I just let this thing be? You clearly don’t want to know how alcoholics are recovering today, and I have reached the point of diminishing returns in this discussion; so I wish all the drunks and addicts in your circle a hearty “good luck”, and when they wind up on the slab with a toe tag, you can a) chastise them, and b) pray for them.

marietta

The topic is “Is drinking a sin?” My answer is above. I’m not sure what topic you’re discussing.

 

[marietta]

Sailor Kenshin:

Michael David seems happy and upbeat. Is he this way every moment of every day? This is a person who freely admits to being introverted. He seems like a non-confrontational sort of fellow. Therefore, he is totally unlikely to take on the likes of Mea Culpa or Sailor Kenshin on this topic.

I don’t feel bitterness about my life; in fact, I’m grateful that God has so far given me an unusual life, one full of lessons and nuances and discoveries which He doesn’t share with just anybody. If you feel a chill when I’m addressing the blatant ignorance surrounding the subject of alcoholism, then either put on your parka or step inside next to the toasty-warm fire of the unlearned. The heat is comfortable and safe, but it sheds no light. Suggestions have been given and have been met with arrogant refusal to even consider them. Good grief, one could even investigate AA online, but I guess that would be too much of a stretch as well.

To whom are you referring when you say God grants us free will, even to reject Him? Is this yet another jab passively thrown in my direction? If so, how have you concluded that I have rejected God? Why would I do such a thing when God has seen fit to grant me an additional 8829 days past my expiration date?

Mea Culpa:

Yes, the topic IS “Is drinking a sin”. **YOU introduced the **pedophile thing, I suppose as a red herring. You do know what the topic is, and that is exactly what I have been discussing. What happened? Did your fuse get wet?

Michael David:

Thank you for sharing your experience with alcohol - mine started similarly, at a very young age, and progressed until that’s all I had in my life that I could count on. Cheap, legal and widely available. Of course, that lead to many other substances to be abused in an effort to fill out the shell that was walking around. You know how it goes: you first think the world is getting bigger, when really all along it’s getting smaller and smaller. We throw ourselves away for a different edition which is unfamiliar and inauthentic. Like my friend Don Gates used to say, “We were a couple o’ young punks tryin’ to look like big shots.”

Bless you in your sobriety. I hope you are able to carry the message to people who are willing to take the suggested steps toward recovery and long-lasting sobriety. Preferably people with ears.

Be well.

marietta

 

[Tantum_ergo]

This is not addressed at any particular person, as I’m sure it’s the sort of thing that we have **all **experienced (even if unrecognized). . .

One of the greatest difficulties we experience in communication occurs when a person refuses to consider anything but his/her own experiences or thoughts as ‘gospel’. Often that person is so confused or blinded that he or she ‘projects’ onto other people and winds up accusing them of the very thing he or she is guilty of --‘refusing to consider any other belief but <>’.

When this happens it stops any dialogue in its tracks. It’s a pity because 99% of the time it is unintended and unrecognized, but it happens, especially in such charged experiences as addictions.

 

[Michael_David]

Marietta, I toast this one to you…

DESIDERATA

Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.

As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their own story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexations to the spirit.

If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.

You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.

Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

Written by Max Ehrmann; © 1927

 

[Michael_David]

And now for the dessert:

The Serenity Prayer
Path

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.
--Reinhold Niebuhr

 

[Mea_Culpa]

Sailor Kenshin:

Mea Culpa:

Yes, the topic IS “Is drinking a sin”. **YOU introduced the **pedophile thing, I suppose as a red herring. You do know what the topic is, and that is exactly what I have been discussing. What happened? Did your fuse get wet?

marietta

Drinking in moderation is not a sin. Becoming intoxicated is a sin. Doing that so much that you become addicted to alcohol is a sin, and at that point you are a slave to sin.

Modern psychobabble wants to eliminate the whole concept of sin - everything is a “syndrome” or a “disease.” Nobody is responsible for anything. This takes away the free will God gave us. We can choose to reject God and his commandments - that makes us sinners, not “diseased.”

I’m sure people who are slaves to sin in the form of alcoholism have a hard time getting free of that slavery. When the Israelites escaped bondage in Egypt, it wasn’t all smooth sailing. They had to wander in the desert for 40 years before they reached the Promised Land. At various points, some of them wanted to go back to slavery in Egypt - at least there they had food and water. But what happened - God provided them with manna from heaven, with water from the rock, and with the pillar of light to guide their way. (By the way, all these things are types of Christ, who says “I am the true bread” “I am the living water” and “I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”) They had to go through the desert and trust in God to get to the Promised Land.

That is what the Bible teaches us we have to do to escape from slavery to sin. We have to go through the desert. There are no shortcuts. It will be hard. Many will not make it. We have to trust in God, that he will provide for us what we need to make it through.

Since you suggest that we investigate AA online, I did. It’s pretty interesting that these 12 steps are all based on Biblical principles and that their program parallels the story of the Exodus I referenced above.

Step 1 - We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable (I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Romans 7:15)

Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity (Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.” Mark 10:27)

Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God (I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Romans 12:1-2)

Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves (Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord. Lamentations 3:40)

Step 5 - Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs (Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. James 5:16)

Step 6 - Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character (Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up. James 4:10)

Step 7 - Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings (If we confess our sins, he is faithful and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9)

Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all (Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift Matthew 5:23-24)

Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others (Do to others as you would have them do to you. Luke 6:31)

Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it (So, if you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 1 Corinthians 10:12)

Step 11 - Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God’s will for us and the power to carry that out (Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly. Colossians 3:16)

Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs (God promises Abraham, “And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies, and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice.” (Genesis 22:18)

Seems that my “antiquated” viewpoint is actually the basis of AA.

 

[Coder]

What point are you trying to make?
marietta

Hello Marietta, my point is that if we were helpless victims of genetics then there would be no sense trying to be holy including avoiding excessive drinking. However, the Catholic faith teaches us that we are not helpless victims of genetics even though we do have original sin due to our descendancy from Adam. (I don’t claim to know whether original sin is related to genetics and if so to what extent. Nonetheless genetic predispositions do not dictate our behavior as though it is out of our control.).

And why excuse yourself…
marietta

It’s an expression that opens a somewhat contradictory statement and calls the reader to consider it. I don’t often use that expression and I admit it is a little bit indignant/self-righteous. Perhaps I should consider not using it.