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StrawberryJam
Guest
Hasn’t this thread strayed off topic from the OP?
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Saintlucy
Guest
That’s what tends to happen and makes for good debate.
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ez3714
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Well, let’s not forget Proverbs 31 which not only explains why a person might get a one way ticket to Blottoville, but also explains why a good person would want to buy them the ticket.
Me? I think it’s the compassion and not the alcohol that’s most important in the healing, but what do I know…
Me? I think it’s the compassion and not the alcohol that’s most important in the healing, but what do I know…
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ML561
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As far as I know, there is nothing wrong with drinking in moderation, or even “getting happy” as long as one’s drinking does not harm oneself or others. This may be a bit off the subject but I would like to address the stance that some AA members take–that is that if someone is an alcoholic then they cannot receive Communion under the species of wine. This, I believe, is a fallacy. I have known several people who are sober alcoholics and have no problem taking wine at Communion. After all, it is the Blood of Christ, a sacrament. Of course if someone feels uneasy about it they can always just take the Host. I remember seeing one woman getting almost hysterical about thinking she had “lost her sobriety” because she sipped Communion wine at a Lutheran service. Peace be with you all.
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Goose4GOD
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I was given some thoughtful and life changing advice many years ago from a decent Irish-Catholic Priest in Jacksonville, Florida. He finished blessing a crucifix for me, then asked if there was anything at all troubling me. I was just beginning my “return” walk with Christ and was confused that the local politicians, of Baptist denomination, had succeeded in “temporarily” halting “Happy Hour”. Was it wrong to drink? He chuckled and said he knew of many who speak of temperance and then go home to snip off a bottle in the closet.
“EVIL does NOT reside in the bottle”, he calmly said, “EVIL resides in the heart”.
“Drink too much and you may let it out and end up doing something that you will live to regret for the rest of your days”.
“Moderation is the key”, he said.
As Father Groeshel aptly stated once, “we must beware of “scupulosity”…in other words, looking for sin where it may not be”.
“EVIL does NOT reside in the bottle”, he calmly said, “EVIL resides in the heart”.
“Drink too much and you may let it out and end up doing something that you will live to regret for the rest of your days”.
“Moderation is the key”, he said.
As Father Groeshel aptly stated once, “we must beware of “scupulosity”…in other words, looking for sin where it may not be”.
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SHW
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1 Timothy 5:23
No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.
A “little” wine at a time is the “right” amount.
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Scott_D
Guest
There is a certain amount that is cultural/environmental. My family is a hard drinking lot of French Acadian Nova Scotians. Alcohol and partying is so much part of the lifestyle that it cannot be possible that so many people are “diseased.” I’ve seen much the same thing with many Irish families I know in Boston. It is not a disease. Our free will is what decides to delve into drunkeness as a habit. I believe what you are saying is that once alcoholism sets in, you lose your free will. Saying its a disease takes some the onus of drunkeness being a sin.
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adopted_heir
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“Eat and drink, be merry; for tomorrow you will die.”
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PJM
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Our Blessed Lord never indorced drunkeness!
Keep in mind they drank wine like many of us drink coffee. Did some abuse it certainly!
Drunkeness is always a sin and often a Mortal sin.
*1 Thess 5: ** 5 "For you are all sons of light and sons of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness.So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. For those who sleep sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But, since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
** Eph. 5:** 17 “Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit,”
Love and prayers,
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ez3714
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Ok, can we revisit a few points here?
- If a Christian (say: a Fundy, because it’s easier to pick on a stereotype than a real person), is around a bunch of likkered-up people, is he by his very presence endorsing their activities? Especially if he refrains from demanding they repent?
- If drunkenness is always a sin, why does Proverbs 31 say (the DRB) :6 “Give strong drink to them that are sad; and wine to them that are grieved in mind:
Pro 31:7 Let them drink, and forget their want, and remember their sorrow no more”
Is some balance in our theology in order?
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PJM
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This is to vague to respond specifically. Why is this person “hanging with drunks”? is their a motive we need to aware of?
Your point is valid only to a certain limited position.
Let us recall that this miracle was the “first” an anouncement that Jesus was [is] God. As God would Jesus beawre of how humanity was created? Specifically would Chrsit have known that we are "made in the image and likeness of God [Himself!]?
Would Christ have known that He made us with a mind, intellect and freewill, for a very specific purpose. [Isaiah 43: 7 and 21; and Eph. 11: 13] indeed YES to all of these questions.
So did Christ know that some would abuse the gift of wine? Surely. But does this mean that God condones such behavior? No! Christ was aware that in order to fulfill the very purpose of their creation that man must, has to be, FREE to make infependent and unforced decisions at all times. How else can, does one prove “Love and praise of God?” ***
Very good.
Note above that we are made in the "image and likeness of God, who too is considered KING of heaven and earth. If one reads Pro.31: 1-7 one clearly understands that a “king” is NOT to get drunk. and we [lesser kings, but nevertheless kings over our own kingdoms [bodies, minds, intellects and freewills] are also NOT to get drunk, and thud forfeit these to be cherised spiritual gifts!]Mt. Henrey’s Comentary explains:
v. 4, 5. He must not drink wine or strong drink to excess; …, he must deny himself, and be strictly sober, considering, (1.) The indecency of drunkenness in a king. However some may call it a fashionable accomplishment and entertainment, it is not for kings, O Lemuel! it is not for kings, to allow themselves that liberty; it is a disparagement to their dignity, and profanes their crown, by confusing the head that wears it; that which for the time unmans them does for the time unking them. Shall we say, They are gods? No, they are worse than the beasts that perish. All Christians are made to our God kings and priests, and must apply this to themselves. It is not for Christians, it is not for Christians, to drink to excess; they debase themselves if they do; it ill becomes the heirs of the kingdom and the spiritual priests
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Friend that the OT introduces the NT, and the NT fulfills and completes, even perfects the OT.
Rom. 14: "21 it is right not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother stumble.
Eph. 5: “17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit,”
No! If you are asking for some dispensation based on what one choose to understand as the teaching of Christ, would be heading in the wrong direction. Thruth remains truth reguardless of who accepts it and a lie is still a lie even if everyone chooses to believe it. What is right is RIGHT and what is wrong is WRONG!
Siracah 31: "27 Wine is like life to men, if you drink it in moderation. What is life to a man who is without wine? It has been created to make men glad. 28 Wine drunk in season and temperately is rejoicing of heart and gladness of soul. 29 Wine drunk to excess is bitterness of soul, with provocation and stumbling. 30 Drunkenness increases the anger of a fool to his injury, reducing his strength and adding wounds.
It seems that both the OT and NT are in agreement on this issue.
Love and prayers,
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holy_moly
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This verse in Prov doesn’t give license for drunkeness, but to drinking. Moderation being the key, you can drink w/out getting drunk
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ez3714
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Yes, you can drink without getting drunk. But the verse in Proverbs indicates drinking with a specific goal, one not normally associated with moderation…This verse in Prov doesn’t give license for drunkeness, but to drinking. Moderation being the key, you can drink w/out getting drunk
…which leads us back to the o-p: Is drunkenness acceptable in certain circumstances? Most people are pointing out that it is normally Not acceptable. But does this passage define one of those moments when it is?
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holy_moly
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I think 1st, people would have to agree what the meaning of ‘drunkenness’ is
tipsy, sure, why not
, but sloshed, a no no
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StrawberryJam
Guest
EditI think 1st, people would have to agree what the meaning of ‘drunkenness’ is
tipsy, sure, why not
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jmtowle
Guest
The question is can drunkenness be acceptable in some circumstances and I will say yes and I think my guess is as good as yours.
I’ve been on hunting trips where after hunting from sun up to sun down, a group of about
8-10 men will gather firewood, start the camp fire and begin meal prep and cooking. The cases upon cases of beer that had been on ice now make their way into the hands of each hunter and from that point on, each person will drink until they go to bed or fall asleep in their chair.
During the time from dinner to sleep an unknowable number of stories are told and more times than not, people laugh until they cry and then repeat that action again and again.
The melancholy within the group will inevitably attempt to recall some sad moment in time and they are invited to be quiet or go to bed, as they are reminded that everyone could tell some sad tale but there is a time and a place for everything and this is neither the time nor the place.
I once had a Catholic priest who was a part of our foursome, say that sin is it’s own punishment and in the case of sitting by a campfire and drinking too many beers, daybreak and the inevitable hangover, reinforces that concept. Didn’t Noah experience something along these lines?
I think God may very well find our camping activities acceptable, even if a trip to the confessional is in order.
My personal experience is that some people can drink more than they should and still avoid damaging a close relationship with the Most Holy Trinity.
It certainly isn’t a good habit to get into, but deer hunting once a year could hardly be viewed as a habit.
If I’m wrong about this it wont be the first time and will only add to my Purgatory time that
I’ve earned through grave sin that was confessed but still requires justice.
May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always
JT
I’ve been on hunting trips where after hunting from sun up to sun down, a group of about
8-10 men will gather firewood, start the camp fire and begin meal prep and cooking. The cases upon cases of beer that had been on ice now make their way into the hands of each hunter and from that point on, each person will drink until they go to bed or fall asleep in their chair.
During the time from dinner to sleep an unknowable number of stories are told and more times than not, people laugh until they cry and then repeat that action again and again.
The melancholy within the group will inevitably attempt to recall some sad moment in time and they are invited to be quiet or go to bed, as they are reminded that everyone could tell some sad tale but there is a time and a place for everything and this is neither the time nor the place.
I once had a Catholic priest who was a part of our foursome, say that sin is it’s own punishment and in the case of sitting by a campfire and drinking too many beers, daybreak and the inevitable hangover, reinforces that concept. Didn’t Noah experience something along these lines?
I think God may very well find our camping activities acceptable, even if a trip to the confessional is in order.
My personal experience is that some people can drink more than they should and still avoid damaging a close relationship with the Most Holy Trinity.
It certainly isn’t a good habit to get into, but deer hunting once a year could hardly be viewed as a habit.
If I’m wrong about this it wont be the first time and will only add to my Purgatory time that
I’ve earned through grave sin that was confessed but still requires justice.
May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always
JT
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holy_moly
Guest
ahhh, brought back many a good memory :yyeess:
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hansard
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Someone above quoted Catechism 1735, which covers a great many potential vices, especially in this bit:
"Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by…habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors."
Well, if grog is not habit-forming, an inordinate attachment, as well as a psychological and social factor, then I don’t know what is.
Bottoms up.
"Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by…habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors."
Well, if grog is not habit-forming, an inordinate attachment, as well as a psychological and social factor, then I don’t know what is.
Bottoms up.
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GraceDK
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John92
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Yes but you’ll have to define drunkenness.
God gave us alcohol for our enjoyment. Feeling the alcohol is the whole point. You can drink a pretty good amount without being drunk - that is, all sloppy all-over-the-place confused etc. You shouldn’t get “buzzed” every day or anything, but in a social gathering I think it’s totally appropriate, even beneficial. I don’t see anything wrong with having one or two beers every evening, it’s actually healthy (good for the heart in particular).
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