Is E.O. history as corrupt as RC history?

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I read a pretty simple book that gave a general account of Christian history. I was really surprised at the vast corruption in the papacy. I expected to read about some bad Popes but i wasn’t prepared to see the magnitude and constancy of the corruption in that office.

I believe that the truth of the faith has been preserved by the office of the bishop of Rome, but i am just plain embarrassed at how corrupt the people in that office were.

I was wondering if that sort of corruption or if there was any vast corruption associated with the Eastern Orthodox churches?
 
I read a pretty simple book that gave a general account of Christian history. I was really surprised at the vast corruption in the papacy. I expected to read about some bad Popes but i wasn’t prepared to see the magnitude and constancy of the corruption in that office.

I believe that the truth of the faith has been preserved by the office of the bishop of Rome, but i am just plain embarrassed at how corrupt the people in that office were.

I was wondering if that sort of corruption or if there was any vast corruption associated with the Eastern Orthodox churches?
Not knowing what book you read, and likely never having read it, I can’t address what you concluded was the “vast corruption in the papacy”. One ought to take everything like that with a grain of salt, however, until one reads a great deal, from numerous sources. And the history of the last 2000 years is so huge, that one should perhaps take one event at a time and research it thoroughly before coming to conclusions. It is interesting, for example, that most “American” historical works have British bases. Brits at some times had a purpose in portraying the Catholic Church in as dark a way as possible. Spanish and Italian histories of the same events can read very differently. Secular sources might be different still. Most truly secular “real” histories (and some secular sources are anti-religious generallly and reflect that bias) are fairly benign, and discount most of the darker accounts.

The same is true of the Orthodox and their histories. You can read some truly terrible things, and I have. Some are so awful one is reluctant to believe them, and wonder about the purpose of the writer. But, it is almost a “convention” in here, as with the Catholic Church generally these days, not to “come down hard” on the Orthodox. Sometimes when an EO on here goes into full attack mode against the Catholic Church, it’s hard, and one slips. But I don’t think you’re going to find many, if any, Catholics on here who are willing to plumb the depths. I will add that Western histories are easily accessible to westerners, while Eastern histories are much less so. Western historians tend to write about western events.
 
I read a pretty simple book that gave a general account of Christian history. I was really surprised at the vast corruption in the papacy. I expected to read about some bad Popes but i wasn’t prepared to see the magnitude and constancy of the corruption in that office.

I believe that the truth of the faith has been preserved by the office of the bishop of Rome, but i am just plain embarrassed at how corrupt the people in that office were.

I was wondering if that sort of corruption or if there was any vast corruption associated with the Eastern Orthodox churches?
Depending on what you are talking about, yes.

Do you want details?
 
Depends what you mean, but I think there is corruption in every church. We’re all human, right? I see less corruption in the East, but this is mostly because there was never one person in charge of everyone else like the Popes were and there was no feudal system or Papal states…For instance, I think the selling of hierarchical offices occurred in Constantinople, but was due to the Turks frequently replacing the Archbishops. In many cases, an individual could be Archbishop six times in the life. When a sultan got tired of one or wanted to make a quick buck, he would depose the Archbishop and put the office up for sale. On a few occassions, the Archbishop would be killed for being resistant. One was killed by janissaries and thrown into the Bospherus…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
just a couple of examples would be great.
In addition to Alexius’ examples, read the trials of St. Athanasius in Egypt. One of the highlights was him being put on trial for murder of a man, his accusers producing the man’s severed arm. At trial St. Athansius produced the man, with both arms (I don’t think they ever determined whose arm it was). St. Athanasius wasn’t above whipping up the masses, the Faithful remaining staunchly in support of him, no matter what the emperors said.

I’ll try to return later.
 
This is like someone asking you if you have stopped beating your wife. It makes a prior assumption which is likely to be baseless.
I read a pretty simple book that gave a general account of Christian history.
Simple and general is going to give you a very distorted view. Do you mind posting the author and title of the book?

John
 
This is like someone asking you if you have stopped beating your wife. It makes a prior assumption which is likely to be baseless.
Simple and general is going to give you a very distorted view. Do you mind posting the author and title of the book?

John
sure.

“The Story of Christianity” by Michael Collins and Matthew A Price

Michael Collins is a priest and Matthew Price is a protestant scholar I believe.

a very general Christian history book which is what i wanted to get me started.
 
I read a pretty simple book that gave a general account of Christian history. I was really surprised at the vast corruption in the papacy. I expected to read about some bad Popes but i wasn’t prepared to see the magnitude and constancy of the corruption in that office.

I believe that the truth of the faith has been preserved by the office of the bishop of Rome, but i am just plain embarrassed at how corrupt the people in that office were.

I was wondering if that sort of corruption or if there was any vast corruption associated with the Eastern Orthodox churches?
They were in such a hot seat, everyone waiting to judge. Just a reminder, we should all realize that they were just men, sinners like the rest of us. And therefore one should not judge the Church by the mistakes of the human part of the whole Church both human and divine, as Jesus was.

There are corrupt leaders in politics, schools, businesses, judicial offices, and other Christian denominations. All men are imperfect.
and the Catholic Church just happens to have one man at any given time to be the leader of all the bishops and priests. The Orthodox churches however, have many men who govern themselves. Any corruption would not be as widely known or publicized as it would the leader of thousands of nations.
 
sure.

“The Story of Christianity” by Michael Collins and Matthew A Price

Michael Collins is a priest and Matthew Price is a protestant scholar I believe.

a very general Christian history book which is what i wanted to get me started.
At least Fr Michael Collins is an associate professor of history, that is more than some authors of Church history can claim to be.

If you want to read a history of the Church from an Orthodox perspective, a very good introduction is “The Orthodox Church” by Bishop Kallistos Ware. It can be found online in its entirety at the following link:
intratext.com/x/eng0804.htm
 
At least Fr Michael Collins is an associate professor of history, that is more than some authors of Church history can claim to be.

If you want to read a history of the Church from an Orthodox perspective, a very good introduction is “The Orthodox Church” by Bishop Kallistos Ware. It can be found online in its entirety at the following link:
intratext.com/x/eng0804.htm
I always forget it’s online and wind up buying new copies for myself and others…😉
 
In addition to “The Orthodox Church,” I would also recommend “The Great Church in Captivity,” by Steven Runciman. It details the history of the Church of Constantinople after the schism. For Russia, I recommend “The Icon and the Axe,” by James H. Billington. It is about the history of Russian culture in general, but the parts on the Orthodox Church are excellent…👍

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
They were in such a hot seat, everyone waiting to judge. Just a reminder, we should all realize that they were just men, sinners like the rest of us. And therefore one should not judge the Church by the mistakes of the human part of the whole Church both human and divine, as Jesus was.

There are corrupt leaders in politics, schools, businesses, judicial offices, and other Christian denominations. All men are imperfect.
and the Catholic Church just happens to have one man at any given time to be the leader of all the bishops and priests. The Orthodox churches however, have many men who govern themselves. Any corruption would not be as widely known or publicized as it would the leader of thousands of nations.
I think, after reading this book, that man is truly hopeless. But thanks for the Grace of God he still comes to us to save us even in our hopeless state!

I think that clergy are held to the highest standards because of their office. Just like a policeman i held to the highest standards of law abiding, or a doctor to the standard of healthy living (two great examples of how their office and function is no less authoritative or true by their personal conduct)
 
I don’t know if this counts, because at this period we were still a united church, but the robber council in Ephesus is an example of corruption. St. Flavian was deposed and died shortly thereafter from wounds he suffered. According to the account I was just reading in Newman (which is not a history book, of course, but I imagine his account is substantially correct), “Dioscorus had been attended by a multitude of monks, furious zealots for the monophysite doctrine from Syria and Eygpt, and by an armed force. These broke in to the Church at his call; Flavian was thrown down and trmapled on, and received injuries of which he died the third day after. The Pope’s legates escaped as they could; and the Bishops were compelled to sign a blank paper, which was afterwards filled up with the condemnation of Flavian… The proceedings ended by Dioscorus excommunicating the Pope, and the Emperor issuing an edict of approval of the decision of the Council.”

Like I said, I don’t know how accurate the history is. In the past one hundred years since Newman wrote, possibly the history has become clearer or we’ve found better documents.

Another example I’ve found related with St. Gregory of Nazianzus. I recently got a copy of his five theological orations (St. Vladimir’s Press), and it has an introductory note (by the editor? translator?) which really brings out, in my mind, the politics involved in the process of the Nicene faith or the competing Arian heresy.

Granted, I’ve noticed that some people are wont to paint church history as overly political (it was all power moves by people like St. Athanasius, and that’s why orthodoxy triumphed), some people have completely pious histories (as many of us here at Catholic Answers prefer-- the Council was summoned and it settled the big bad Arian/Nestorian/etc. heresy, and orthodoxy triumped), and some people try to honestly include both where they are relevant. I’m wary of the completely political angle, but I agree that it definitely exists and influences history.

Christianity is a historical religion. It’s a mark of the catholicity of the religion that we have our sinners as well as our saints, because truly everyone is called to it. If it was just a small and fervid sect, perhaps it would have just people who are very rigorous and exacting. But since it embraces all people it has, just as our parishes do, I suppose, people who range from very holy and pious, down to rather sinful.

-Rob
 
As to the issue of corruption, there are all kinds of such things. If one forgets about religion for the moment and just considers business, there are petty affairs, and massive ENRON type conspiracies.

The question itself is very broad. There are financial escapades, and sexual ones. There is also influence peddling. Often times what appears to be a scandal of the church is actually the church as a victim.

As has been stated in other ways, corruptions can be found all over the human spectrum, and in every religion. Pastors who sleep with other men’s spouses can be considered a type of corruption, it is certainly an abuse of position (similar to the risk in any profession, I wouldn’t want my doctor or lawyer sleeping with my wife any more than my pastor).

The difference in church types can be the opportunities, and a highly centralized organization can give rise to highly sophisticated schemes of corruption. Certainly governments have experienced that, as well as large corporations.

In the Roman Empire the church was considered an organ of the state, and therefore a lot of church expenses were met by the government, is accepting that money a form of corruption? Possibly. Gifts of property (such as the turning over of public buildings) began as early as Constantine.

It is a sure thing that the state used it’s own influence over the church to control or manipulate the populace. (That continued to be a problem all over Europe for hundreds of years.)

The Roman emperors, being the “First Citizens” had a role to play as guardians of the nation, and protectors of the people, possibly even as instruments of God’s will. At least that was the theory, especially when there were hopes of having one universal kingdom on earth with one faith in Christ.

It then was also public policy to have the entire populace included under one church, and that meant the state was involved in church disputes (trying to prevent schisms, and trying to forge reconciliations). Very clearly the state consider unity in Christ a source of strength (and ultimately good for everyone). When schism occurred, the state did in fact become weaker.

The fact that the state attempted to subordinate all synods to it’s will was a form of corruption, in my opinion. That was a distortion of the normal ecclesiology which in modern times is not much of a problem. The situation became much much worse under the Caliphs and Sultans, who used the church like a fertile field to be plowed.

The west had a different situation, the church itself grew more centralized over time, with power concentrated in the hands of the bishop of Rome and his aides. Centralized institutions offer great opportunities for corruption.

One of the most significant western problems that I recall was the sale of church offices, which has been classed as simony. It became a much more common practice in the late middle ages and so accepted that the revenue was anticipated as a means to balance budgets of the bishops of Rome.

This form of corruption sometimes allowed for and encouraged another: the occupation of more than one See (another violation of the ancient canons), with a dispensation from the Popes. Revenue accumulated very rapidly that way, the money lenders getting back handsome returns for the advancement of funds for this purpose. It was a trilateral complex where three parties always benefited, and was difficult to suppress. (Something like the Military-Industrial Complex Eisenhower warned Americans about, and is still a problem fifty years later.)

As far as I know, the eastern churches did not have the problem of a bishop holding multiple Sees, because there was no mechanism to allow for it. Theoretically as well, monks couldn’t use the money, but I suppose there can be other motivations, like the advancement of family.

The bishops of the east for hundreds of years were mostly monks (the overwhelmingly preferred source for bishops), and they were watched by the state which would not hesitate to depose them, so I think sexual scandals were very rare. In any case, I don’t remember reading about them in the east.

Indulgences (of the type known in the west) were not sold, because there is no theory of satisfaction, no theory of the Treasury of Merits and no theory of Purgatory. Sincere confession being deemed sufficient to redeem a sinner.
 
They were in such a hot seat, everyone waiting to judge. Just a reminder, we should all realize that they were just men, sinners like the rest of us. And therefore one should not judge the Church by the mistakes of the human part of the whole Church both human and divine, as Jesus was.

There are corrupt leaders in politics, schools, businesses, judicial offices, and other Christian denominations. All men are imperfect.
and the Catholic Church just happens to have one man at any given time to be the leader of all the bishops and priests. The Orthodox churches however, have many men who govern themselves. Any corruption would not be as widely known or publicized as it would the leader of thousands of nations.
And conversely the leadership of “thousands of nations” would invite corruption. Fighting over it in the Great Western Schism plunged all of Western Europe into taking sides on who was the “real” pope for 40 years, and paved the way for the Reformation and Wars of Religion.
 
I read a pretty simple book that gave a general account of Christian history. I was really surprised at the vast corruption in the papacy. I expected to read about some bad Popes but i wasn’t prepared to see the magnitude and constancy of the corruption in that office.

I believe that the truth of the faith has been preserved by the office of the bishop of Rome, but i am just plain embarrassed at how corrupt the people in that office were.

I was wondering if that sort of corruption or if there was any vast corruption associated with the Eastern Orthodox churches?

All Christian Churches are corrupt - their members are corrupt, so they are. Where there are human beings, there is sin & there is corruption. God is good - not man. Man is evil. According to the gospels. Only a sinless Church can have a sinless history.​

 

All Christian Churches are corrupt - their members are corrupt, so they are. Where there are human beings, there is sin & there is corruption. God is good - not man. Man is evil. According to the gospels. Only a sinless Church can have a sinless history.​

That would be the Church of one.

IC XC.
 
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