Is each person of Trinity necessary?

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porthos11:
I must also add, to the argument that the Spirit is not the object of God’s knowledge, therefore he is incomplete.

As stated, I reject that conclusion because since, first of all, we’re not Modalists, we confess the distinction of the Persons.

The orthodox teaching is that of the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, the Spirit uncreated, but the Father unbegotten, the Son begotten, the Spirit proceeding.

Since the Son is begotten and the Father is not, we cannot somehow draw from this conclusion that the Father is not complete. They both are Complete and Perfect, being God. But the Son must necessarily be begotten as the Image of the Father, but still truly God.

This is important to point out because, as the Creed states, we confess this while “neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the essence.” So the Son is not the Father, but that makes neither the Father nor the Son incomplete and yet they are God. Same goes for the Holy Spirit. He is not begotten, but proceeding, and is neither the Father nor the Son, and so is distinct, and yet God. So distinction does not imply incompleteness or inadequacy. Therefore the objection that since the Spirit is not the object of God’s knowledge therefore means he is incomplete does not hold.

To say that “the Spirit is not the object of God’s knowledge” is just another way of saying The Spirit is not the Son, or the Spirit is not the Word, which is the orthodox belief professed by the Creed.
Each person is God yet you can distinguish them? Each person is different yet each is God?
I hesitate to use the word “different” because you can’t separate the divine nature, which is infinite. I would stick with “distinct.”

But essentially yes.

“Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the essence.”

or, a textual version of the Trinitarian Shield:

The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.

The Father is not the Son.
The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

or a graphical version:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
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STT:
Each person is God yet you can distinguish them. Each person is different yet each is God.
These statements are contradictory to me.
Then you need to study in more depth, if you indeed come in good faith. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church, and this is the ancient faith handed down by the Apostles and the holy Fathers, and confirmed by the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church, with whom Christ said he will be with always until the end of the world and against which the gates of hell shall not prevail.

Ultimately, the Trinity is a Mystery that will never be fully grasped because we are dealing with God, the Infinite who cannot be fathomed by our finite minds. We only know it to be true because God has revealed it.
 
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STT:
Each person is God yet you can distinguish them. Each person is different yet each is God.
These statements are contradictory to me.
The problem is with how you are using the term “person”. See St. Thomas Aquinas’ explanation:
To determine the question, we must consider that something may be included in the meaning of a less common term, which is not included in the more common term; as “rational” is included in the meaning of “man,” and not in the meaning of “animal.” So that it is one thing to ask the meaning of the word animal, and another to ask its meaning when the animal in question is man. Also, it is one thing to ask the meaning of this word “person” in general; and another to ask the meaning of “person” as applied to God. For “person” in general signifies the individual substance of a rational figure. The individual in itself is undivided, but is distinct from others. Therefore “person” in any nature signifies what is distinct in that nature: thus in human nature it signifies this flesh, these bones, and this soul, which are the individuating principles of a man, and which, though not belonging to “person” in general, nevertheless do belong to the meaning of a particular human person.

Now distinction in God is only by relation of origin, as stated above (I:28:2 and I:28:3), while relation in God is not as an accident in a subject, but is the divine essence itself; and so it is subsistent, for the divine essence subsists. Therefore, as the Godhead is God so the divine paternity is God the Father, Who is a divine person. Therefore a divine person signifies a relation as subsisting. And this is to signify relation by way of substance, and such a relation is a hypostasis subsisting in the divine nature, although in truth that which subsists in the divine nature is the divine nature itself. Thus it is true to say that the name “person” signifies relation directly, and the essence indirectly; not, however, the relation as such, but as expressed by way of a hypostasis. So likewise it signifies directly the essence, and indirectly the relation, inasmuch as the essence is the same as the hypostasis: while in God the hypostasis is expressed as distinct by the relation: and thus relation, as such, enters into the notion of the person indirectly. Thus we can say that this signification of the word “person” was not clearly perceived before it was attacked by heretics. Hence, this word “person” was used just as any other absolute term. But afterwards it was applied to express relation, as it lent itself to that signification, so that this word “person” means relation not only by use and custom, according to the first opinion, but also by force of its own proper signification.
Summa P1, Q29, A4
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1029.htm#article4
 
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This is the Athanasian Creed, which is the Catholic creed that goes into the most detail about the nature of the Holy Trinity (post 1 of 2)

Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all, keep the Catholic faith.
For unless a person keeps this faith whole and entire, he will undoubtedly be lost forever.
This is what the Catholic faith teaches: we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity.
Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty.
What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is.
The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.
Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being.
So there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being.
Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, the Holy Spirit is omnipotent.
Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being.
 
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part 2 of 2

Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
However, there are not three gods, but one God.
The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.
However, there as not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are obliged by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person singly to be God and Lord, so too are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.
The Father was not made, nor created, nor generated by anyone.
The Son is not made, nor created, but begotten by the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit is not made, nor created, nor generated, but proceeds from the Father and the Son.

There is, then, one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
In this Trinity, there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less. The entire three Persons are coeternal and coequal with one another.
So that in all things, as is has been said above, the Unity is to be worshipped in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity.
He, therefore, who wishes to be saved, must believe thus about the Trinity.

It is also necessary for eternal salvation that he believes steadfastly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thus the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and man.

As God, He was begotten of the substance of the Father before time; as man, He was born in time of the substance of His Mother.
He is perfect God; and He is perfect man, with a rational soul and human flesh.
He is equal to the Father in His divinity, but inferior to the Father in His humanity.
Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ.
And He is one, not because His divinity was changed into flesh, but because His humanity was assumed unto God.
He is one, not by a mingling of substances, but by unity of person.
As a rational soul and flesh are one man: so God and man are one Christ.
He died for our salvation, descended into hell, and rose from the dead on the third day.
He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
At His coming, all men are to arise with their own bodies; and they are to give an account of their own deeds.
Those who have done good deeds will go into eternal life; those who have done evil will go into the everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic faith. Everyone must believe it, firmly and steadfastly; otherwise He cannot be saved.

Amen.
 
Then you need to study in more depth, if you indeed come in good faith. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church, and this is the ancient faith handed down by the Apostles and the holy Fathers, and confirmed by the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church, with whom Christ said he will be with always until the end of the world and against which the gates of hell shall not prevail.

Ultimately, the Trinity is a Mystery that will never be fully grasped because we are dealing with God, the Infinite who cannot be fathomed by our finite minds. We only know it to be true because God has revealed it.
I don’t think that further study could help me. God as a necessary being exist in all possible world. You are excluding something from Father, Son, and Holy Spirit hence they don’t exist in all possible worlds therefore they are not God but god. The combination is however God.
 
You are bounding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit when you refer Son as object of Knowledge and Holy Spirit as Love.
 
This is a very odd question.
If there were less or more than 3. Persons in the Trinity it would logically cease to be a Trinity.

Therefore for the Trinity to be a Trinity at all then every person of the 3 must be present and therefore entirely necessary.

I am genuinely puzzled that such a question could be asked at all.
 
This is a very odd question.
If there were less or more than 3. Persons in the Trinity it would logically cease to be a Trinity.

Therefore for the Trinity to be a Trinity at all then every person of the 3 must be present and therefore entirely necessary.

I am genuinely puzzled that such a question could be asked at all.
You could have unity, one person one God, instead of three persons three Gods one God.
 
The OP concerns a question about the Holy Trinity.
3 persons in one God each being fully God.

There must be 3 persons for this entity to be described as a Trinity.

Therefore there is complete unity since each person is fully God , yet all contained within a singular Godhead.

The catholic formulation of the dogma represents the truth about God.

(The Islamic one is utterly wrongheaded )
 
Do not use analogies when trying to explain the Trinity. It will result in some kind of ancient heresy and for the uninitiated, will distort his understanding of God.
This is not what St Thomas says, ST I.1.9:
On the contrary, It is written (Hosea 12:10): “I have multiplied visions, and I have used similitudes by the ministry of the prophets.” But to put forward anything by means of similitudes is to use metaphors. Therefore this sacred science may use metaphors.
I answer that, It is befitting Holy Writ to put forward divine and spiritual truths by means of comparisons with material things…
In fact, “necessary” is already an analogy, since God is free in everything. If there were some higher law making 3ness necessary, we would not be talking about God. We have the idea of necessity from our own lives, and it really does not apply to God.

Go ahead and express your ideas. If they are as “heretical” as claimed, someone will help you understand how.
 
God is necessary to Himself.
If that were not true then God would not exist and that is a basic impossibility.
 
that’s heresy.

All three are fully God not gods and they are not parts of God. That is the truth even if none of us can fully understand it.

What you said here approaches jw nonsense.
 
It seems like you don’t want to hear the traditional Catholic teaching about this Divine Mystery. What you are arguing with is a Creed that is around 1500 years old.
 
So you are telling me that there is no argument which can support the existence of Trinity? That is what mystery means.
 
So if God is not necessary to himself why would he even exist?

Being necessary to oneself is a constituent element of a self existent being.

It does not imply necessity in the contingent sense.
 
Could we agree that God as a necessary being exist in all possible worlds? You are excluding something from Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This means that they do not exist in all possible worlds therefore they are not God.
 
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