Is Eastern Catholicism the same Eastern Orthodoxy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Angela77
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

Angela77

Guest
Is Eastern Catholicism the same Eastern Orthodoxy? Just curious; my grandfather was Eastern Orthodox.
 
It depends on what you mean by “the same as”. The theological beliefs are likely very similar, and it might be hard for the average person to notice a difference in a normal Eastern Rite service as compared to Eastern Orthodoxy. However, Eastern Rite Catholics accept some beliefs that Eastern Orthodox do not always accept (including purgatory and some of the Marian dogmas), and obviously Eastern Rite Catholics are in full communion with the See of Rome whereas Eastern Orthodox are not.
 
The most important difference is that Eastern Catholics are true Catholics while Eastern Orthodox are (whether they are morally culpable for it or not) schismatics.

Beyond that it’s important to remember that neither group is monolithic. From my limited experience talking both online and in person to members of both I would say that basically (oversimplifying) there is a spectrum of beliefs for Orthodox and another spectrum for Eastern Catholics and those spectra partially overlap, with the exception of whether one thinks one should currently be in communion with the Roman Pope or not.

So you could find an Orthodox and an Eastern Catholic who agreed on practically everything except whether it was appropriate to be in communion with the bishop of Rome, and you could find another Orthodox and another Eastern Catholic who disagreed with one another on many aspects of belief and even practices.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
The most important difference is that Eastern Catholics are true Catholics while Eastern Orthodox are (whether they are morally culpable for it or not) schismatics.

Beyond that it’s important to remember that neither group is monolithic. From my limited experience talking both online and in person to members of both I would say that basically (oversimplifying) there is a spectrum of beliefs for Orthodox and another spectrum for Eastern Catholics and those spectra partially overlap, with the exception of whether one thinks one should currently be in communion with the Roman Pope or not.

So you could find an Orthodox and an Eastern Catholic who agreed on practically everything except whether it was appropriate to be in communion with the bishop of Rome, and you could find another Orthodox and another Eastern Catholic who disagreed with one another on many aspects of belief and even practices.
Click to expand...
The use of the term schimatic to describe the faithful of any of the Apostolic Churches is not permitted in this forum.
 
Angela77 said:
Is Eastern Catholicism the same Eastern Orthodoxy? Just curious; my grandfather was Eastern Orthodox.
Click to expand...
There are similarities and these similarities can be very difficult to spot if one was to view an eastern Mass. A major difference is that Eastern Catholics are Catholics. They are in Communion with Roman Catholics. Eastern Orthodox are not.
 
RyanBlack said:
The use of the term schimatic to describe the faithful of any of the Apostolic Churches is not permitted in this forum.
Click to expand...
My apologies. It can be hard to remember all the rules, and I had to search thoroughly to find that one. I avoided suggesting moral culpability for the lack of unity and their situation like that of any non-Catholic Christians clearly meets the definition of schism as refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or communion with members of the Church subject to him. I personally would hope an Orthodox individual would consider me schismatic and would not be afraid to say so, since this would indicate a common understanding that there is a single true Church founded by Jesus Christ which we should be a full part of. I say this not to argue against CAF policy but to show where my own statement came from.

Let me amend my statement in light of this rule: The most important difference is that Eastern Catholics are true Catholics while Eastern Orthodox are (whether they are morally culpable for it or not) members of Churches which are currently outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church.
 
Most people are not aware that the “Catholic Church” is actually comprised of twenty-three independent Catholic Churches, all in union with the pope. The Western, or Latin Catholic Church, is so large, however, that many people, even Catholics, are completely unaware of the other twenty-two churches, which make up the Eastern Branch. (Some have from only a few thousand members to a few million.)

Originally, there was only one denomination… the Catholic Church (the word Catholic meaning “universal”). However, there were five cities that early on were singled out as being important centers of Christianity. They were Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, and of course, Rome. Each developed its own unique traditions and liturgy, but ALL shared a common theology and were in communion with each other and the Bishop of Rome, known as the Pope. However, about 1000 years ago, due to a variety of unfortunate problems, the other four cities, allied with the Byzantine Empire, mutually broke off from Rome, forming the various Eastern Orthodox Churches. Although doctrinally, they are virtually identical to Catholics, they refuse to acknowledge that the pope is more than a “first among equals”. (A couple groups broke of much earlier in the 400s AD also, to form what are known as the Oriental Orthodox Churches).

What has happened is that over time, some portions of each of the various Orthodox groups have decided to reconcile with the Catholic Church and come back into communion with Rome. When they do, they are allowed to keep all of their traditions and much of their independence, although they acknowledge the authority of the Pope. They become truly Catholic, in that anyone from ANY branch of the Catholic Church can participate in the liturgy and ceremonies of any OTHER branch of the Catholic Church. The only two Eastern groups that never fell out of communion with the Catholic Church were the Maronite Catholic Church, and the Italo-Albanian Catholic Church. So… for every branch of the Orthodox Churches that are NOT in communion with Rome, there is a corresponding and virtually identical branch of the Eastern Catholic Church that IS in communion with Rome. Since their customs and liturgies date from before the Council of Trent, they are allowed to remain.

The following liturgies are used by the Eastern Catholic Churches:
  • The Liturgy of St. Basil
  • The Chaldean Mass
  • The Order of the Divine and Holy Liturgy of Our Father Among the Saints Gregory the Theologian (or Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts)
  • The Liturgy of St. James
  • The Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom
  • The Liturgy of St. Mark
  • The Holy Qorbono
 
Here is a listing that includes EACH of the twenty-three Catholic Churches in union with the Pope. Do not confuse “churches” with “rites”. A rite is a series of traditions, that includes different customs and liturgies. Several different churches may use the exact same rite. A Church has its own rules and separate line of authority to the Pope. It may also have a figure in charge, like a Metropolitan or a Patriarch (like an Archbishop), since these churches are generally very small and work very hard to preserve their unique traditions. The major rites are the Latin, Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian, Chaldean, and Byzantine.

The Western (Latin) Catholic Church

Latin liturgical tradition
  1. Ordinary Form (This is the form of the Mass that you will find in virtually every Latin Catholic Church almost every day of the week. This Mass has existed since the mid-1960s, ever since reforms were made following the Second Vatican Council.)
  2. Extraordinary Form (This is the form of the Mass that was used in virtually every Latin Catholic Church from the Middle Ages until the mid-1960s. It may still be said in Catholic Churches should a priest choose to use it. Some of the differences from the Ordinary Form include the exclusive use of the Latin language (except for the homily), the receipt of Communion exclusively on the tongue and kneeling, the priest facing the same direction as the people (toward the altar and God) so he can lead the people in prayer, no lay participation on the altar, and usually, no responses by lay people.)
  3. Ambrosian Rite (Only permitted in the Archdiocese of Milan)
  4. Mozarabic Rite (Only permitted in the Cathedral of Toledo, Spain and a few surrounding churches of the diocese)
  5. Bragan Rite (Only permitted in the Archdiocese of Braga, Portugal)
  6. Anglican-Use Mass (This form was once only permitted in the extremely rare circumstance in which an Anglican priest converted to Catholicism and brings his entire parish with him. In that event, a parish could continue to use the Anglican liturgy, with corrections to make it conform with Catholic teachings. It was originally meant as a transitional liturgy, and upon the death of the pastor, the church would revert to the Ordinary Form. With the recent provisions announced by the Vatican to allow Anglicans into the Catholic Church and keep their traditions, it seems that the Anglican-Use will now become both far more widespread AND permanent.)
**Rites of Religious Orders **
  1. Dominican Rite
  2. Carthusian Rite
  3. Carmelite Rite
  4. Cisternian Rite
Note: Technically, the forms of the Latin liturgy listed above are NOT different rites, but variations of the SAME rite, although people do tend to commonly use the term somewhat erroneously in this context. The differences between the Latin “rites” are FAR less than those between the Latin liturgy and any of the Eastern Rites.)

**The Eastern Catholic Churches
  1. Alexandrian liturgical tradition**
  2. Coptic Catholic Church (patriarchate): Egypt (1741)
  3. Ethiopian Catholic Church (metropolia): Ethiopia, Eritrea (1846)
    2. Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) liturgical tradition
  4. Maronite Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Argentina, Brazil, United States, Australia, Canada, Mexico (union re-affirmed 1182)
  5. Syriac Catholic Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Palestine, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, United States and Canada, Venezuela (1781)
  6. Syro-Malankara Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate): India, United States (1930)
    3. Armenian liturgical tradition:
  7. Armenian Catholic Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Palestine, Ukraine, France, Greece, Latin America, Argentina, Romania, United States, Canada, Eastern Europe (1742)
    4. Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
  8. Chaldean Catholic Church (patriarchate): Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, United States (1692)
  9. Syro-Malabar Church (major archiepiscopate): India, Middle East, Europe and America.
    5. Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition:
  10. Albanian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic administration): Albania (1628)
  11. Belarusian Greek Catholic Church (no established hierarchy at present): Belarus (1596)
  12. Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic exarchate): Bulgaria (1861)
  13. Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Križevci (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro (1611)
  14. Greek Byzantine Catholic Church (two apostolic exarchates): Greece, Turkey (1829)
  15. Hungarian Greek Catholic Church (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Hungary (1646)
  16. Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (two eparchies and a territorial abbacy): Italy (Never separated)
  17. Macedonian Greek Catholic Church (an apostolic exarchate): Republic of Macedonia (1918)
  18. Melkite Greek Catholic Church (patriarchate): Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Jerusalem, Brazil, United States, Canada, Mexico, Iraq, Egypt and Sudan, Kuwait, Australia, Venezuela, Argentina (1726)
  19. Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic (major archiepiscopate): Romania, United States (1697)
  20. Russian Catholic Church: (two apostolic exarchates, at present with no published hierarchs): Russia, China (1905); currently about 20 parishes and communities scattered around the world, including five in Russia itself, answering to bishops of other jurisdictions
  21. Ruthenian Catholic Church (a sui juris metropolia, an eparchy, and an apostolic exarchate): United States, Ukraine, Czech Republic (1646)
  22. Slovak Greek Catholic Church (metropolia): Slovak Republic, Canada (1646)
  23. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate): Ukraine, Poland, United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Germany and Scandinavia, France, Brazil, Argentina (1595)
 
Rolltide said:
Most people are not aware that the “Catholic Church” is actually comprised of twenty-three independent Catholic Churches, all in union with the pope. The Western, or Latin Catholic Church, is so large, however, that many people, even Catholics, are completely unaware of the other twenty-two churches, which make up the Eastern Branch. (Some have from only a few thousand members to a few million.)

Originally, there was only one denomination… the Catholic Church (the word Catholic meaning “universal”). However, there were five cities that early on were singled out as being important centers of Christianity. They were Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, and of course, Rome. Each developed its own unique traditions and liturgy, but ALL shared a common theology and were in communion with each other and the Bishop of Rome, known as the Pope. However, about 1000 years ago, due to a variety of unfortunate problems, the other four cities, allied with the Byzantine Empire, mutually broke off from Rome, forming the various Eastern Orthodox Churches. Although doctrinally, they are virtually identical to Catholics, they refuse to acknowledge that the pope is more than a “first among equals”. (A couple groups broke of much earlier in the 400s AD also, to form what are known as the Oriental Orthodox Churches).

What has happened is that over time, some portions of each of the various Orthodox groups have decided to reconcile with the Catholic Church and come back into communion with Rome. When they do, they are allowed to keep all of their traditions and much of their independence, although they acknowledge the authority of the Pope. They become truly Catholic, in that anyone from ANY branch of the Catholic Church can participate in the liturgy and ceremonies of any OTHER branch of the Catholic Church. The only two Eastern groups that never fell out of communion with the Catholic Church were the Maronite Catholic Church, and the Italo-Albanian Catholic Church. So… for every branch of the Orthodox Churches that are NOT in communion with Rome, there is a corresponding and virtually identical branch of the Eastern Catholic Church that IS in communion with Rome. Since their customs and liturgies date from before the Council of Trent, they are allowed to remain.

The following liturgies are used by the Eastern Catholic Churches:
  • The Liturgy of St. Basil
  • The Chaldean Mass
  • The Order of the Divine and Holy Liturgy of Our Father Among the Saints Gregory the Theologian (or Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts)
  • The Liturgy of St. James
  • The Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom
  • The Liturgy of St. Mark
  • The Holy Qorbono
Click to expand...
The use of the word “independent” is potentially misleading. On the first and most important level of consideration the Church is a unity. Also, all Catholic individuals and communities, including the Eastern Catholic Churches, are subject to the universal jurisdiction of the Pope.

That said, for most practical purposes the Eastern Catholic Churches, especially those with their own bishops, are self-governing. A technical term for their status is sui iuris, which means “of its own laws”, since these Churches in practice set up their own laws to govern themselves (though there is also a Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches).

The Latin Rite Church is also considered a Church sui iuris despite the much more intense use of Papal authority over it, for the simple reason that the Pope, as bishop of Rome, is also a member of the Latin Rite Church, so technically the rules being set up to govern the Latin Rite Church are being set up within it. The practical role the Pope plays in the Latin Rite Church has sometime been compared to that of a patriarch in certain Eastern Churches, but this comparison opens a Pandora’s box of potential misunderstandings of Papal authority and so the short-lived official title “Patriarch of the West” has apparently been discontinued.
 
Most Orthodox Churches are Autocephalous while Eastern Catholic means part of the RCC.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
The use of the word “independent” is potentially misleading.
Click to expand...
Indeed! Not even the Pope is “independant.” We are ALL subject to the higher authority of Sacred Tradition.
On the first and most important level of consideration the Church is a unity. Also, all Catholic individuals and communities, including the Eastern Catholic Churches, are subject to the universal jurisdiction of the Pope.
Click to expand...
As an Oriental Catholic, I don’t consider “being subject to the universal jurisdiction of the Pope” as the sign of Catholic unity. Rather, it is faithfulness to Sacred Tradition that is the ultimate sign of Catholic unity. If the Pope himself is not being faithful to Sacred Tradition, I daresay NO ONE can be “subject” to him.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear brother Wesley,
Wesley7 said:
Most Orthodox Churches are Autocephalous while Eastern Catholic means part of the RCC.
Click to expand...
We are part of the CC. The RCC is also part of the CC. Ideally, the RCC is as much a part of us as we are a part of them, for we are united in the Catholic Church, the body of Christ.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Aelred_Minor said:
The use of the word “independent” is potentially misleading. On the first and most important level of consideration the Church is a unity. Also, all Catholic individuals and communities, including the Eastern Catholic Churches, are subject to the universal jurisdiction of the Pope.
Click to expand...
Correct. Its “self-governing” or “autonomous”, not independent.
 
mardukm said:
Dear brother Wesley,

We are part of the CC. The RCC is also part of the CC. Ideally, the RCC is as much a part of us as we are a part of them, for we are united in the Catholic Church, the body of Christ.

Blessings,
Marduk
Click to expand...
This definition of “RCC” or Roman Catholic Church as a synonym for the Latin rite Church (aka Latin Church, Western Catholic Church, etc.) is common within the Eastern Catholic Churches and even among many Latin Catholics, but some Catholics at least in the West and many if not most non-Catholics use it to refer to any Christian in communion with the Roman Pope- in other words the entire Catholic Church, whether or not they are aware of the existence of the Eastern Catholic Churches. Obviously this has been discussed many times on other threads. The point is we can clarify any potential misunderstandings arising from other ways of using the term but we should remember that “Roman Catholic” is not an official canonical term and ultimately needs to be interpreted in the way the person using the term means it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top