Is eternal hellfire fair?

[FindTruth7]

I don’t think you get it. A soul that dies impenetent is not in any broken humble state of sorrow as you paint here. It is smug in its defiance and self pride in rejecting God. God will not suffer a soul that despises God to live in His presence for eternity. God loves even the damned and honors its desire to be its own god and gives him a place to live that is as far removed and distance from God as it can be. Before it leaps into hell the damned soul confesses that it is damned by its own fault and by its own choice.

God does not force anyone to love Him against its will - that would be an abuse of love. God has given humanity more than ample warnings and teaching to decide for itself but respects that man has free choice to choose the allures of evil over Him.

On their deathbeds there are no athesists - only those hoping and praying they were wrong.

James

I believe I do get it, I just disagree. The picture I painted was if a certain soul, prideful at one time, dies, casts into Hell, then (if possible) changes his/her mind, having a change of heart, a truly broken heart, now desiring God, but can never be with Him. That is what I got from the sentence in your post I quoted. Maybe I misunderstood though.

I don’t think such a thing exists. Those who seek after Truth (God) will find Him, and those who do not, shall not, nor ever will want. Those who hear the gospel, delight in it, abandon their old ways for this more peaceful way, are seeking Truth, those who become angered by the gospel are not seeking Truth.

I diagree that God “honors” the wicked for their ways also. But we all have opinons

 

[CentralFLJames]

I believe I do get it, I just disagree. The picture I painted was if a certain soul, prideful at one time, dies, casts into Hell, then (if possible) changes his/her mind, having a change of heart, a truly broken heart, now desiring God, but can never be with Him. That is what I got from the sentence in your post I quoted. Maybe I misunderstood though.

I don’t think such a thing exists. Those who seek after Truth (God) will find Him, and those who do not, shall not, nor ever will want. Those who hear the gospel, delight in it, abandon their old ways for this more peaceful way, are seeking Truth, those who become angered by the gospel are not seeking Truth.

I diagree that God “honors” the wicked for their ways also. But we all have opinons

You are limiting your understand by assuming that minds can change after death - they can not. A soul that dies in mortal sin has no merit - ZERO. The only reason you and I can have a reasonably civil discussion and agree to disagree is because to greater or lessor degree we each are responding to God’s grace wwhile we are alive. It is God’s grace that permits us to have any degree of respect, civility, empathy, consideration or any good virtue at all. At death we are removed from God’s grace and the soul stands alone on its own merits - all the grace that it has absorbed in its life and what grace produced as a spiritual fruit is all that survives.

In other words, if the soul is spiritually dead (grave sin) it can not feel remorse or anything virtuous. It can only experience negative things like envy and loathing. It has no good in it. A dead soul might as well be a rotted head of cabbage that stinks and can do nothing and feel no empathy - not even for itself. All a dead soul can do is contemplate what it might have been and what it had become and the hopelessness of it condition never changing. It realizes that it completely wasted God’s grace and held it in no regard.

The soul is a spiritual container that God fills with grace and permits to grow and expand in its ability to take on more. A soul with mortal sin has a gaping wound that all grace escapes out of at the time of physical death. It is an empty hull fit to be burned but being immortal can not even be annihilated.

We are called through Christ to divinity my friend. There is no middle ground - one becomes as a child of God or a child of Satan. What we have now is the option to decide who we want for our Father (and Mother too).

James

 

[FindTruth7]

You are limiting your understand by assuming that minds can change after death - they can not. A soul that dies in mortal sin has no merit - ZERO. The only reason you and I can have a reasonably civil discussion and agree to disagree is because to greater or lessor degree we each are responding to God’s grace wwhile we are alive. It is God’s grace that permits us to have any degree of respect, civility, empathy, consideration or any good virtue at all. At death we are removed from God’s grace and the soul stands alone on its own merits - all the grace that it has absorbed in its life and what grace produced as a spiritual fruit is all that survives.

In other words, if the soul is spiritually dead (grave sin) it can not feel remorse or anything virtuous. It can only experience negative things like envy and loathing. It has no good in it. A dead soul might as well be a rotted head of cabbage that stinks and can do nothing and feel no empathy - not even for itself. All a dead soul can do is contemplate what it might have been and what it had become and the hopelessness of it condition never changing. It realizes that it completely wasted God’s grace and held it in no regard.

The soul is a spiritual container that God fills with grace and permits to grow and expand in its ability to take on more. A soul with mortal sin has a gaping wound that all grace escapes out of at the time of physical death. It is an empty hull fit to be burned but being immortal can not even be annihilated.

We are called through Christ to divinity my friend. There is no middle ground - one becomes as a child of God or a child of Satan. What we have now is the option to decide who we want for our Father (and Mother too).

James

I am not saying a soul can change his/her mind after death. That’s what I thought you were implying by saying the soul will realize it’s fault while in Hell.

Still, what I am also saying is that if one is seeking Truth, he/she shall find Truth. God promises. Seek and you shall find. He who seeks me shall find me.

The wicked, or those who do not love God will not find Him because they do not want to abandon what offends God.

Though I disagree that our state suddenly changes at the time of our death. Sounds like a fantasy novel to me, the way you described it. I cannot believe that one who stole a pencil, or ate meat on a friday, or missed a day of obligation, who suddenly dies, will all of a sudden become mean and rotten before God. We’re human, we make mistakes, but again I don’t buy into the guessing game based on a time schedule so many Christians love to portray.

Seek and you shall find.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I am not saying a soul can change his/her mind after death. That’s what I thought you were implying by saying the soul will realize it’s fault while in Hell.

Still, what I am also saying is that if one is seeking Truth, he/she shall find Truth. God promises. Seek and you shall find. He who seeks me shall find me.

The wicked, or those who do not love God will not find Him because they do not want to abandon what offends God.

Though I disagree that our state suddenly changes at the time of our death. Sounds like a fantasy novel to me, the way you described it. I cannot believe that one who stole a pencil, or ate meat on a friday, or missed a day of obligation, who suddenly dies, will all of a sudden become mean and rotten before God. We’re human, we make mistakes, but again I don’t buy into the guessing game based on a time schedule so many Christians love to portray.

Seek and you shall find.

We can agree on the principal of seek and ye shall find. But once the pearl of great worth is found it is insufficient to just leave it in its hiding place. It is more than an intellectual pursuit. We can’t get all the way there by intellectual pursuit. There is always a certain dimension of faith required. In the analogy then one must grasp the pearl, recognize its value and forsake all else that is incompatible with this new pearl of truth. Further, one must not be careless and lose the pearl or let somone steal it from us. Nor should we exchange it for a meal or a transient and fickle temporal need like Esau giving Jacob his birthright for a hot meal.

In truth the soul is already dead at the instant it creates grave sin while we are alive on earth. The only reason we are able to repent is because of this thing called universal grace - God always calls us to repent. But as soon as death sets in and the soul separates its fixed in its final state - it has made its decisions.

There is a revelation from St. Faustina in the context of Divine Mercy that in a sublime interval right at transition to death God calls each soul 3 times to appeal to His Mercy (think of Jesus asking Peter 3 times - “do you love me”) . If the soul does not respond or in the presence of God’s ovewhelming holiness is ashamed (think of Adam feeling named in he garden after sinning) and looks away - its toast.

James

p.s. you have some strange notions of what merits hell. The fasting rules and so forth are meant as disciplines. If one does not consciously reject it then there is no problem if somone honestly forgets.

 

[FindTruth7]

We can agree on the principal of seek and ye shall find. But once the pearl of great worth is found it is insufficient to just leave it in its hiding place. It is more than an intellectual pursuit. We can’t get all the way there by intellectual pursuit. There is always a certain dimension of faith required. In the analogy then one must grasp the pearl, recognize its value and forsake all else that is incompatible with this new pearl of truth. Further, one must not be careless and lose the pearl or let somone steal it from us. Nor should we exchange it for a meal or a transient and fickle temporal need like Esau giving Jacob his birthright for a hot meal.

In truth the soul is already dead at the instant it creates grave sin while we are alive on earth. The only reason we are able to repent is because of this thing called universal grace - God always calls us to repent. But as soon as death sets and the soul separates its fixed in its final state - it has made its decisions.

There is a revelation from St. Faustina in the context of Divine Mercy that in a sublime interval at death God calls each soul 3 times (think of Jesus asking Peter 3 times - “do you love me”) to appeal to His Mercy. If the soul does not respond or n the presence of God’s ovewhelming holiness is ashamed (think of Adam feeling named in he garden after sinning) and looks away - its toast.

James

The soul’s toast huh? What a joyful way to put it. What is it about “religious” people always talking about love and grace, mercy and compassion, and yet treat so many with such a disregard as to implying one is “toast?” This is where i disagree with, well I guess with the Church. I know it’s all so easy for some, especially the “holy” ones who probably have suffered little their entire lives, but life can be quite difficult for ones living with a mental illnesses, making that path extremely difficult, or surrounded by physical violence 24/7.

I do not agree that one’s soul suddenly dies upon commiting such an act as to be cast into eternal Hell for taking a mere pencil, or doing something that offends God–TO A DEGREE that if he/she were to suddenly die, there would be no repentance. Again, we’re human, make mistakes. The difference in believers is they aknowledge their mistakes in grief and come crying to the Lord for His mercy, oh unless they miss that time schedule and didn’t get the “chance.” Game over. Obvioulsy I’m being sarcastic

But as for an unbeliever who doesn’t care anyway, I can understand them shying away from God.

By the way, when I am in a state of grace, if I were to stand before God I also would be on my knees, face to the ground, probably remembering my wicked ways and feeling shameful. Guess I’m toast too. But I’m human, not a god.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The soul’s toast huh? What a joyful way to put it. What is it about “religious” people always talking about love and grace, mercy and compassion, and yet treat so many with such a disregard as to implying one is “toast?” This is where i disagree with, well I guess with the Church. I know it’s all so easy for some, especially the “holy” ones who probably have suffered little their entire lives, but life can be quite difficult for ones living with a mental illnesses, making that path extremely difficult, or surrounded by physical violence 24/7.

I do not agree that one’s soul suddenly dies upon commiting such an act as to be cast into eternal Hell for taking a mere pencil, or doing something that offends God–TO A DEGREE that if he/she were to suddenly die, there would be no repentance. Again, we’re human, make mistakes. The difference in believers is they aknowledge their mistakes in grief and come crying to the Lord for His mercy, oh unless they miss that time schedule and didn’t get the “chance.” Game over. Obvioulsy I’m being sarcastic

But as for an unbeliever who doesn’t care anyway, I can understand them shying away from God.

By the way, when I am in a state of grace, if I were to stand before God I also would be on my knees, face to the ground, probably remembering my wicked ways and feeling shameful. Guess I’m toast too. But I’m human, not a god.

Good luck - you are going “out there” now and further dialog is pointless and outside of th bounds of objective dialog.

Final comment - you need to face the reality that there comes a time when choices are final and consequences and rewards are given. I didn’t invent the sytem so take it up further with God if you have a serious problem with it before you try to burn me at the stake for the crime of being too holy for your standards. I claimed nothing of the sort. But you have no business judging what others suffer.

Peace,

James

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Anyone who doesn’t believe in eternal hell has no concept of the love shown by Christ on the cross.

There would be no justice if there wasn’t Hell.

The hardest truth for many to understand is that God loves us so much that he LETS us go to Hell if that is what we choose.

God is love.

As Corinthians says–love does not demand its own way.

If one LOVES Hell and CHOOSES to go there God love us so much that he LETS us go there!

 

[Deconi]

"Is eternal hellfire fair?"

I understand that it heats from the inside outward until it completely engulfs you and the rate of consumption is a constant; so “yes” it is “fair”!

To be spared that, and whatever difference you wish to make, THE DECISION HAS TO BE MADE ON THIS SIDE of the divide; that is, while you live!

 

[FindTruth7]

"Is eternal hellfire fair?"

I understand that it heats from the inside outward until it completely engulfs you and the rate of consumption is a constant; so “yes” it is “fair”!

To be spared that, and whatever difference you wish to make, THE DECISION HAS TO BE MADE ON THIS SIDE of the divide; that is, while you live!

I believe in Hell, or eternal seperation from God, but describing it like this sounds no different than mere mythology, and trying to scare someone into a religion.

God is not a serial killer that tortures people in the most inhuman of ways, as what this image of hell describes.

 

[FindTruth7]

Good luck - you are going “out there” now and further dialog is pointless and outside of th bounds of objective dialog.

Final comment - you need to face the reality that there comes a time when choices are final and consequences and rewards are given. I didn’t invent the sytem so take it up further with God if you have a serious problem with it before you try to burn me at the stake for the crime of being too holy for your standards. I claimed nothing of the sort. But you have no business judging what others suffer.

Peace,

James

How am I going “out there” friend? Though I probably am, unlike most, i’m stupid, slow to wit, and sick in the mind.

And like so many others, your narrowing God’s magnificent salvation plan down to a mere guessing game and time schedule, rather than an individual’s heart, doing the best he/she can along the journey. For you, the soul is “alive-dead, alive-dead, alive-dead” constantly worrying about every microscopic detail, at least that’s how I see it, instead of seeking forgivness and walking, or attempting to walk with God the best you can until you see Him, because THAT is your ultimate goal, rather than a lightning bolt dicintegrating you for your next sin.

I don’t care for any reward, any glory, nothing! All I want, more than ever, is to be at peace, FINALLY . . . at peace, peace from saddness, peace from depression, peace from anger, peace from myself, peace with the Lord! and to rest by my God’s side, at His feet. I can care less about any reward in Heaven.

One mustn’t die with an unrepented heart.

PS. I’m sure you’re holier than me. And I will listen to God on whatever system He has–IF I truly know He has said it, and not the 20,000 denominations and the majority opinons of Catholics and Orthodoxs, not to mention all the other religions.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The “peace” you desire is at odds with God’s holy Word that states “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”.

Martin Luther desired that peace so much that he taught people NOT to "WORK out their salvation with “fear and trembling”.

There is no need to “fear or tremble” if there is no Hell!

There is plenty of reason to “fear or tremble” if God’s word tells yhou to do that and plenty of reason that if you don’t do that that an actual hell will be the result.

The truth is not either/or it is both/and.

One can BOTH have “peace” in God and also “fear and tremble” because of the real Hell that Jesus Himself taught us about!

 

[FindTruth7]

The “peace” you desire is at odds with God’s holy Word that states “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”.

Martin Luther desired that peace so much that he taught people NOT to "WORK out their salvation with “fear and trembling”.

There is no need to “fear or tremble” if there is no Hell!

There is plenty of reason to “fear or tremble” if God’s word tells yhou to do that and plenty of reason that if you don’t do that that an actual hell will be the result.

The truth is not either/or it is both/and.

One can BOTH have “peace” in God and also “fear and tremble” because of the real Hell that Jesus Himself taught us about!

The PEACE I desire (as I assume you are talking to me) is to be free of sin, to be free of worry, pain, death, sorrow, anger, pride, violence, arrogance, DEPRESSION, etc!! If you believe that I am at odds for desiring this, then I have been misunderstanding Christianity my ENTIRE LIFE and I will most soon abandon it if it truly preaches that there shall be no peace, that sin and depression shall last forever, as you’re making it sound.

By the way, I don’t care about what Martin Luther taught, I do not admire him for his teachings, but hope he finished his race.

Re-read my posts, I do believe in a Hell, I just don’t believe it is the way many religious people describe it, I think Hell is more so as J.P.Holding describes it:

tektonics.org/uz/2muchshame.html

Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling means we tremble before the Lord, fear Him as well, for He is the Almighty who made us, and we must be reminded just WHO we are offending when we commit sin. It’s a journey though, a process of traveling along the hard and difficult road. BUT God knows each of our hearts and knows who truly wants Him, and who is truly trying, regardless of how much they continue to fall from life’s trials. And we have His forgiveness through the Lamb, Jesus Christ, by His blood only are we saved, no merit, no work, no act of righteousness, just His blood.

I want to finish my race, and if I do, I expect NO reward, just peace with God and all other believers in Heaven.

If this is not what Christianity is, then the last decade of my life has been meaningless and I’ve completely misunderstood Christianity.

 

[cynic]

Even an eternal existence in hell is better than oblivion since hell is limited in its degree of punishment by God’s mercy.

who says it’s limited. Isn’t hell, by the definition of many Christians the worst kind of pain possible?

Most people do not think of it this way but hell is a form of God’s Mercy since it does have a finite limit and its the ultimate expression of self-centered and selfishly motivated free choice.

Those who are there are there apparently for rejecting God, not being as self-centered or selfish as it is possible to be. This is God taking revenge for us not loving him. The rejection of the narcissistic being, apparently, is the ultimate form of selfishness. You can be selfless in other ways, towards others in life, but if you reject God that then it’s eternal torment.

Why?..because he is offended

Consider that the holiness of God is infinite and unfathomable. A temporally committed offense against that unbounded holiness is an unimaginably serious transgression. This is why there needs to be an eternal consequence for unforgiven sin.

Since we were created imperfect, less and God, and thus capable of sin, I can’t see why the transgression is ‘unimaginable’.

 

[spauline]

who says it’s limited. Isn’t hell, by the definition of many Christians the worst kind of pain possible?

Those who are there are there apparently for rejecting God, not being as self-centered or selfish as it is possible to be. This is God taking revenge for us not loving him. The rejection of the narcissistic being, apparently, is the ultimate form of selfishness. You can be selfless in other ways, towards others in life, but if you reject God that then it’s eternal torment.

Why?..because he is offended

Since we were created imperfect, less and God, and thus capable of sin, I can’t see why the transgression is ‘unimaginable’.

so a young guy using a girl and then discarding her, by insulting her immeasruble dignity does not merit immeasurable punishment?

Evidently, our words have no meaning.

you should go back and reread my post and then tell us that hell is not fair. Have you ever been immeasurably insulted? How does it feel?

How can such persons repay you?

 

[spauline]

Those who are there are there apparently for rejecting God, not being as self-centered or selfish as it is possible to be. This is God taking revenge for us not loving him. The rejection of the narcissistic being, apparently, is the ultimate form of selfishness. You can be selfless in other ways, towards others in life, but if you reject God that then it’s eternal torment.

Why?..because he is offended

to prefer superficial goods to Infinite Love IS insulting. This is the essence of hell. Did you read all the posts, particularly MINE?

the couple that fornicates casually says, I would rather have finite, superficial pleasure to Everlasting Love that is Infinite. By doing this, they IMPLY that superficial pleasure is SUPERIOR to Infinite Love, and that is INFINITELY insulting, which in turn is INFINITELY OFFENSIVE.

And how does one pay for an IMMEASURABLE offense? An immeasurable sentence, hence, eternal torment.

 

[cynic]

But what kind of God is that? Love me or I’ll make sure you’re miserable for all eternity. What kind of God creates just so the creature can fulfill a purpose that pleases *him. *We are judged for being self centred, yet the whole of creation is supposed to be made to glorify the being that created it.

Also, if he created us just so we can be constantly thankful for being created, think and do nothing that isn’t related to worship (outside of day-to-day neccessities), then what kind of pointless existence is that?

 

[cynic]

to prefer superficial goods to Infinite Love IS insulting. This is the essence of hell. Did you read all the posts, particularly MINE?

the couple that fornicates casually says, I would rather have finite, superficial pleasure to Everlasting Love that is Infinite. By doing this, they IMPLY that superficial pleasure is SUPERIOR to Infinite Love, and that is INFINITELY insulting, which in turn is INFINITELY OFFENSIVE.

And how does one pay for an IMMEASURABLE offense? An immeasurable sentence, hence, eternal torment.

If the implication of your actions is insulting to God, then it still comes down to God being offended.

It’s funny you people always focus of things like murder, fornication, abortion etc. A person can spend his or her life committing none of these sins and still go to hell because they chose to not reciprocate God’s (very conditional) love.

In fact I’ve heard evangelicals say that the first time a child lies or disobeys parents (in full knowledge) is so offensive to God that this warrants hell.

 

[RoyS]

Eternal hellfire is nonebut God Himself. It’s true! God is said in Scripture to be a consuming and refining fire, and He alone is truly eternal? Hellfire is good and neccessary for us to become pure and fit for the kingdom. That’s what I believe.

 

[CentralFLJames]

who says it’s limited. Isn’t hell, by the definition of many Christians the worst kind of pain possible?

Apply simple logic. If you are a finite created being then its impossible for a finite being to be the recipient of infinite unbridled and unbounded punishment. Now apply symmetry in the other direction. If you, a created finite being with a non-divine limited soul were to go to heaven it would be impossible for you to experience the eternal bliss to the same degree that God contemplates Himself since a finite soul can not contain God - much less attain to equality with God. Ergo - a principal of Justice would limit the punishment of hell to a similar intensity and degree of reward.

Those who are there are there apparently for rejecting God, not being as self-centered or selfish as it is possible to be. This is God taking revenge for us not loving him. The rejection of the narcissistic being, apparently, is the ultimate form of selfishness. You can be selfless in other ways, towards others in life, but if you reject God that then it’s eternal torment.

Why?..because he is offended

Rejecting God is the ultimate expression of self-centeredness. It is the equivalent of making oneself one’s own god. What could be more just than to give a person who loved himself more than God (and completely to God’s exclusion as is the case in mortal sin) an eternity with himself as god (little g) but without any intrinsic powers to do anything but lament and loath the only god they ever knew - themselves?

Since we were created imperfect, less and God, and thus capable of sin, I can’t see why the transgression is ‘unimaginable’.

Actually God creates the Soul perfect. It becomes soiled by original sin when attached to man’s sinful and fallen human nature. Since God gives us the means to re-purify His entrusted soul through obedience, cooperation and dedication through baptism it becomes a moral responsibility and an act of natural gratuity for humanity to thank God for the gift of Life by returning the soul back to God as pure as it was when first created. It becomes even more pleasing to God if that same soul is not only returned pure but is also returned full to the brim with the collected grace that God rained down on that the soul and which was collected over its life. To much that is given much is expected. An eternal soul certainly is a free gift of “immortality” - it would be unimaginable to even consider being so careless that one would return one’s soul back to God so soiled and filthy as “thanks and gratitude”. It all comes down to honoring one’s father and mother for the free gift of life and making God pleased and proud that you did not squander your inheritance or sell it for cheap thrills and transient pleasures.

James

 

[spauline]

If the implication of your actions is insulting to God, then it still comes down to God being offended.

It’s funny you people always focus of things like murder, fornication, abortion etc. A person can spend his or her life committing none of these sins and still go to hell because they chose to not reciprocate God’s (very conditional) love.

In fact I’ve heard evangelicals say that the first time a child lies or disobeys parents (in full knowledge) is so offensive to God that this warrants hell.

It is insulting simpley because it IS!!! And immeasurably so.

So you are saying that if you were a woman and some guy used you and then dumped you when finished, that you wouldn’t feel insulted?

In other words, God is unjust precisely BECAUSE He is offended that a priceless creature that he died for is immeasurably insulted?

Sister Faustina said many souls in hell didn’t believe in hell while they were on earth.