Is eternal hellfire fair?

[cynic]

So you are saying that if you were a woman and some guy used you and then dumped you when finished, that you wouldn’t feel insulted?

.

You seem pre-occupied with this. Of course a woman should feel offended, but how many victims of rape or ‘misuse’ would like to see that man suffer in hell for eternity?

Many women who have suffered that kind of abuse seem to express a desire for the perpetraitor to truly aknowledge and comprehend the effect of their actions, rather than wishing unending pain on them.

 

[spauline]

You seem pre-occupied with this. Of course a woman should feel offended, but how many victims of rape or ‘misuse’ would like to see that man suffer in hell for eternity?

Many women who have suffered that kind of abuse seem to express a desire for the perpetraitor to truly aknowledge and comprehend the effect of their actions, rather than wishing unending pain on them.

only supernatural love can desire their restoration.

But precisely because she is called to ETERNAL gift and reception of love, so the punishment for mocking this is ETERNAL torment, phyisical and spiritual, IF unrepented of.

This is NOT a preoccupation, it is the crux of the matter.

You are dodging the conversation, for whatever reason. If you don’t concede the point being made by me, you will never concede to the Catholic notion of hell.

CentralJames will never convince you.

I am the only person in this thread who is getting to the crux of the question.

The others will never convince you.

My article says it all.

 

[debraran]

I’ve heard many preachers on EWTN, Mother Angelica, Fr. Groechel, etc. say that God gives us all a chance to accept him or reject him at death. Some will not choose him, some will. I remember Father G quoting saints that said the same thing. His desire is to save souls. They went on that doesn’t mean a long time (which is relative to us) getting purged from your sins, but you shouldn’t go to hell for eating meat on Friday. The Catholic church says certain things are bad, other church’s say different things (like dancing) others nothing. OnlyGod in his wisdom can say who’s heart is stone and who made a mistake.
The Catholic church is the worst for scrupulous people, there are so many things to think about. A Dominican priest on EWTN tonight said he doesn’t want people to worry about whether they are in a state of grace all the time…be loving, love God, do your best to help others, but don’t ruin your joy of living, worrying all the time.It’s not a game of chess, with God removing pieces as you mess up. Just try…don’t forget he loves you and KNOWS you.

 

[spauline]

This is also the meaning of Genesis 3.

It is absolutely absurd to think that God consigns creatures to eternal torment simply because he “said”, “don’t take the fruit”, and they took it.

It is WHAT they are SAYING that merits eternal torment.

To say. “a FINITE physical pleasure” [a piece of fruit] is to be PREFERRED to INFINITE Love and Truth is implying the finite, superficial good is SUPERIOR to the INFINITE Good of Everlasting Love, and THAT is IMMEASURABLY insulting.

That is why mortal sin merits eternal punishment.

Plain and simple.

“For by your words shall you be justified, and by your words shall you be condemned.”

 

[debraran]

The story of Adam and Eve was to teach but they were not sent to Hell. Many people might choose to go to hell, there is pure evil I feel, but most people flounder. “Mortal” sin in the context you mean is designated to Catholics, others are loving Christians or people with different rules. They don’t have our version of confession, our holy days, etc. I would never say or try to interpet anything that God might do. Our minds are too small and the same way you insist God will do this or that ot someone who “acts” like they don’t love him, when they might not know how, is not right. To love a being not there to talk too, hold, converse 2 ways with, is hard for some,especially how they were raised. I"ve always prayed it seemed, talked to Mary and Joseph as a child (and now) but others can’t . Some honestly don’t get the rules…it’s not as with many, an excuse to do wrong, they really don’t get it, don’t see the reason and God knows that. He knows our heart.
I just can’t talk about something that is so out of our reasoning. As he said, you will be surprised who is in heaven and who isn’t.

 

[FindTruth7]

I’ve heard many preachers on EWTN, Mother Angelica, Fr. Groechel, etc. say that God gives us all a chance to accept him or reject him at death. Some will not choose him, some will. I remember Father G quoting saints that said the same thing. His desire is to save souls. They went on that doesn’t mean a long time (which is relative to us) getting purged from your sins, but you shouldn’t go to hell for eating meat on Friday. The Catholic church says certain things are bad, other church’s say different things (like dancing) others nothing. OnlyGod in his wisdom can say who’s heart is stone and who made a mistake.
The Catholic church is the worst for scrupulous people, there are so many things to think about. A Dominican priest on EWTN tonight said he doesn’t want people to worry about whether they are in a state of grace all the time…be loving, love God, do your best to help others, but don’t ruin your joy of living, worrying all the time.It’s not a game of chess, with God removing pieces as you mess up. Just try…don’t forget he loves you and KNOWS you.

Finally, a person of similar understandings comes out

 

[CentralFLJames]

only supernatural love can desire their restoration.

But precisely because she is called to ETERNAL gift and reception of love, so the punishment for mocking this is ETERNAL torment, phyisical and spiritual, IF unrepented of.

This is NOT a preoccupation, it is the crux of the matter.

You are dodging the conversation, for whatever reason. If you don’t concede the point being made by me, you will never concede to the Catholic notion of hell.

CentralJames will never convince you.

I am the only person in this thread who is getting to the crux of the question.

The others will never convince you.

My article says it all.

Gosh spauline, do you mind terribly if some of us at least give it the old college try? I highly respect your insights but I didn’t know we were competing for getting the truth out nor realize that you had a monopoly on wisdom and insight. Shall the rest of us just shut up now or unsubscribe while you take it from here?

James

 

[spauline]

Gosh spauline, do you mind terribly if some of us at least give it the old college try? I highly respect your insights but I didn’t know we were competing for getting the truth out nor realize that you had a monopoly on wisdom and insight. Shall the rest of us just shut up now or unsubscribe while you take it from here?

James

OK, sorry, man, I apologize.

I’m getting carried away.

But personally, I think your arguments are futile, for the issue is, why should a seemingly finite offense merit unending torture?

I’m trying to cut to the chase of the essence of what is going on: the offense is immeasurably INSULTING.

I don’t think other avenues are going to work with cynic.

But I apologize, I shouldn’t monopolize.

If you can convince him, more power to ya. I just don’t think you will because you fail at the crux.

Case in point, how do you dethrone a Calvinist: instead of going in circles, cut to the crux: irresistible grace. Irresistible grace is the root cancer of calvinism. Eventually, this is what it comes down to.

 

[CentralFLJames]

OK, sorry, man, I apologize.

I’m getting carried away.

But personally, I think your arguments are futile, for the issue is, why should a seemingly finite offense merit unending torture?

I’m trying to cut to the chase of the essence of what is going on: the offense is immeasurably INSULTING.

I don’t think other avenues are going to work with cynic.

But I apologize, I shouldn’t monopolize.

If you can convince him, more power to ya. I just don’t think you will because you fail at the crux.

Case in point, how do you dethrone a Calvinist: instead of going in circles, cut to the crux: irresistible grace. Irresistible grace is the root cancer of calvinism. Eventually, this is what it comes down to.

OK cool. Can you repost the article link you were referring to? I was not sure which you were referring to.

James

 

[spauline]

OK cool. Can you repost the article link you were referring to? I was not sure which you were referring to.

James

thanks for accepting my apology, James, my brother.

Here is the link:

Darth Vader, Lust and Hell

 

[cynic]

Apply simple logic. If you are a finite created being then its impossible for a finite being to be the recipient of infinite unbridled and unbounded punishment. Now apply symmetry in the other direction. If you, a created finite being with a non-divine limited soul were to go to heaven it would be impossible for you to experience the eternal bliss to the same degree that God contemplates Himself since a finite soul can not contain God - much less attain to equality with God. Ergo - a principal of Justice would limit the punishment of hell to a similar intensity and degree of reward.

Wasn’t it you who said that souls are punishments in degree with regards to the severity of their sins? If so, then that means most souls are not experiencing the maximum amount of torment they could be, yet hell is often described as the worst pain possible to experience, which can’t the case then.

Rejecting God is the ultimate expression of self-centeredness

Why is that? Isn’t selfishness defined as putting personal desires above *anothers needs? *What does God *need *from us? Out families, and to some extent our neighbours do need things from us, however.

It is the equivalent of making oneself one’s own god. What could be more just than to give a person who loved himself more than God (and completely to God’s exclusion as is the case in mortal sin) an eternity with himself as god (little g) but without any intrinsic powers to do anything but lament and loath the only god they ever knew - themselves?

I’m not sure how failing to love God, and believe that your existence only matters in as much as you glorify him counts as
“making oneself one’s own god”. We can acknowledge that we are not gods without neccessarily living for God (big g). Why would God require that we live ONLY for him anyway, he could have created existence anyway he wanted, yet he chose to make it all about…him.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Wasn’t it you who said that souls are punishments in degree with regards to the severity of their sins? If so, then that means most souls are not experiencing the maximum amount of torment they could be, yet hell is often described as the worst pain possible to experience, which can’t the case then.

I am sorry your argument is not making sense to me. The minimum punishment in hell is worse than anything we can imagine. That’s only the minimum. What we can’t imagine is that the soul can experience even more than we can imagine. Don’t limit your maximum punishment (or reward) by only what you can imagine.

Why is that? Isn’t selfishness defined as putting personal desires above *anothers needs? *What does God *need *from us? Out families, and to some extent our neighbours do need things from us, however.

That is not the definition I was working to. Selfishness is more concerned chiefly or only with oneself to the exclusion of others and to God. It’s a form of self-worship, celf-centeredness and idolatry. Vanity, pride, narcissism etc. are all related - and grave sins.

I’m not sure how failing to love God, and believe that your existence only matters in as much as you glorify him counts as
“making oneself one’s own god”. We can acknowledge that we are not gods without neccessarily living for God (big g). Why would God require that we live ONLY for him anyway, he could have created existence anyway he wanted, yet he chose to make it all about…him.

Our existence only matters in as much as we respond to His grace and cooperate with it not in how we glorify Him - although there is a relationship to glory. Yes we can recognize that we are not gods but self deprecation or simple recognition of our own short comming (i.e. not divine) merits no one. I can’t answer your question about why God wants certain things - this is what we are told - “love God with all your heart mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself”. This is the definition of true Christian charity. We serve God by loving and helping each other but we also serve God through prayers of thanks and recognition and obeying His Commandments.

Creation is less about God the father as it is about God the Son. You sound like you are displeased with God for giving you a free gift of life but you do not want to show any thanks or gratitude for that gift. I’d take this up with God and talk to him about it if its a major issue for you.

James

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus said “the fire is not quenched”.

I believe that Jesus KNEW what He was talking about and that people that don’t believe what He said don’t know what they’re talking about!

 

[cynic]

That is not the definition I was working to. Selfishness is more concerned chiefly or only with oneself to the exclusion of others and to God. It’s a form of self-worship, celf-centeredness and idolatry. Vanity, pride, narcissism etc. are all related - and grave sins.

So this is how you see all non-believers ; narcisstic self-worshipers. The lense through which many Christians view the world (and I hazard a guess that they get some satisfaction out of it) Seemingly altruistic or empathetic acts are always attributed to some selfish alterior motive if not done on command from God/Christ. I think Augustine said something similiar ie. the heathen is only kind when it serves his own purpose.

Yet this isn’t the case, even your most bigoted atheists would feel something for others, at least their family members, but if loving God first and foremost is neccessary to love others, then it shouldn’t be possible.

Our existence only matters in as much as we respond to His grace and cooperate with it not in how we glorify Him

We were made so that we coud be restored to him from our fallen state to fulfill some divine purpose that hasn’t been revealed to us. Well that makes no sense at all. Firstly because it requires evil - the fall - and how can an all good being require evil.

although there is a relationship to glory. Yes we can recognize that we are not gods but self deprecation or simple recognition of our own short comming (i.e. not divine) merits no one.

but it could spare you the absolute bottom of the pit…where they play Rod Stewart albums around the clock .

. You sound like you are displeased with God for giving you a free gift of life but you do not want to show any thanks or gratitude for that gift. .

It’s like if you had kids but asked them to spend their entire lives adoring you and being thankful to you for bringing them into the world, what would be the point of having children?

 

[cynic]

Their are also other issues to with repentence and judgement (more relevent to the thread).

Example : One man goes to a bar, gets drunk and has a one-night-stand with some woman. He wakes up in the morning, crosses the street and gets hit by a bus. He goes to hell.

Another man does the same thing, but crosses the street safely. The day after he feels sick about what he’s done, and asks God for forgiveness (or for the sake of argument becomes Catholic and goes to confession). He turns his life around. When he dies he goes to heaven (or purgatory…)

Now both might have had adequate opportunities to repent for that sin and all the rest of them, but it seems that one man had great deal *more ‘*slack’ than the other.

 

[FindTruth7]

“I am sorry your argument is not making sense to me. The minimum punishment in hell is worse than anything we can imagine. That’s only the minimum. What we can’t imagine is that the soul can experience even more than we can imagine. Don’t limit your maximum punishment (or reward) by only what you can imagine.”

So hell is going to be worse than being slowly skinned alived, starving to death, freezing to death, having 1000 blazing hot needles poked in every part of your body, eaten alive, set feet first and slowly in acid or a wood chipper, having someone slice open your belly, slowly rip out your intestines, then rip open your rib cage, etc.? Or maybe Satan is going to eat us eternaly or our bodies thrown on hot sizzling grills.

One can imagine alot, but I tottaly disagree with this, and it sounds so ridiculous and nothing more than typical early mythology, and a system that would work in scaring one into a cult or belief system. it’s done all the time, and it’s decieving and brainwashing.

God is NOT a serial killer. Eternal seperation from God is to feel shame for your sins, and to forever live in your own Hell, with the self-righteous soul created him/herself. And furthermore, no soul in Hell will even desire to be with God, which is what makes it all the more a “hell.” Walloping in your own misery.

 

[FindTruth7]

Jesus said “the fire is not quenched”.

I believe that Jesus KNEW what He was talking about and that people that don’t believe what He said don’t know what they’re talking about!

Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed with an “unquenchable fire” but is not burning still. Just that no one was able to stop that fire of God, which was all consuming and did consume all.

 

[CentralFLJames]

“I am sorry your argument is not making sense to me. The minimum punishment in hell is worse than anything we can imagine. That’s only the minimum. What we can’t imagine is that the soul can experience even more than we can imagine. Don’t limit your maximum punishment (or reward) by only what you can imagine.”

So hell is going to be worse than being slowly skinned alived, starving to death, freezing to death, having 1000 blazing hot needles poked in every part of your body, eaten alive, set feet first and slowly in acid or a wood chipper, having someone slice open your belly, slowly rip out your intestines, then rip open your rib cage, etc.? Or maybe Satan is going to eat us eternaly or our bodies thrown on hot sizzling grills.

One can imagine alot, but I tottaly disagree with this, and it sounds so ridiculous and nothing more than typical early mythology, and a system that would work in scaring one into a cult or belief system. it’s done all the time, and it’s decieving and brainwashing.

God is NOT a serial killer. Eternal seperation from God is to feel shame for your sins, and to forever live in your own Hell, with the self-righteous soul created him/herself. And furthermore, no soul in Hell will even desire to be with God, which is what makes it all the more a “hell.” Walloping in your own misery.

You seem predisposed to focus only on the negative. Why not turn your objections to the positive and see that eternal reward is also greater than you can imagine. Has it ever occurred to you that punishment and reward are not expressed solely in sensual terms?

You make my case. You put God into the box of your own imagination and intellect - this is a type of hell. You can not imagine anything worse than physical pain while an objective person can easily imagine that there is something unspecific and unfathomable that could be worse than physical sensual pain. Ergo - in your narrow subjective view its impossible to even conceive of how much punishment you will suffer in hell since you limit it to the assumption of sensual effects only. How much less so then are we suited to conceive how much reward you will garner in heaven? Clearly, we have to trust in both cases that God in the positive sense of reckoning “rewards” all according to what they deserve. Why be so negative and self-limiting in what you can imagine? I am certain that God will do “the right thing” and in either the case (heaven or hell) do it quite well.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Their are also other issues to with repentence and judgement (more relevent to the thread).

Example : One man goes to a bar, gets drunk and has a one-night-stand with some woman. He wakes up in the morning, crosses the street and gets hit by a bus. He goes to hell.

Another man does the same thing, but crosses the street safely. The day after he feels sick about what he’s done, and asks God for forgiveness (or for the sake of argument becomes Catholic and goes to confession). He turns his life around. When he dies he goes to heaven (or purgatory…)

Now both might have had adequate opportunities to repent for that sin and all the rest of them, but it seems that one man had great deal *more ‘*slack’ than the other.

Has it ever occurred to you that God is the one who determines when we are born and when we die? It could be that in the case of the man killed after hurting somone else’s life and not confessing that God knew this man was habitually in the practise of harming others and had proven himself fixed on evil. God certainly has the right to kill him to prevent him from causing further harm to others as much as he has the right to call a saint home at the top of his game.

James

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Hell is more than fair.

In fact each soul in hell will be made to confess “I am damned by my own choice and by my own fault”.

Given the alternative of an oblivion of no life a free gift of even a mortal life is infinitely better than non existence.

Even an eternal existence in hell is better than oblivion since hell is limited in its degree of punishment by God’s mercy. Most people do not think of it this way but hell is a form of God’s Mercy since it does have a finite limit and its the ultimate expression of self-centered and selfishly motivated free choice. In hell all are self serving gods - but without any purpose or power. If there was no hell and one’s eternal soul was not permitted to be admitted to heaven an eternal soul would have to create its own hell - and it would be unmerciful on itself without limit.

Consider that the holiness of God is infinite and unfathomable. A temporally committed offense against that unbounded holiness is an unimaginably serious transgression. This is why there needs to be an eternal consequence for unforgiven sin. The transgression is immense since in the face of a free gift of life we dishonored God’s trust that we would out of natural gratitude use that free gift in a way that honors Him as creator. If God offers through the creative act of life an opportunity for eternal life and the only criteria is we respect, honor and love God for being so kind to give us life and the opportunity for eternal bliss then to reject that offer necessitates a justice that is balanced in the same degree in both directions - acceptance and rejection. Therefor in heaven we have eternal bliss and in hell we have eternal torment. God does not undo anything He creates - this is because a creative act nullified would imply a fickle and frivolous God who “makes” and “unmakes” without reason or purpose. But we know God is unchanging and not fickle. So returning to oblivion is not an option for those mering hell nor is it a greater mercy than hell.

Work through the thought process and I think you will see what I am saying.

James

This was interesting. How about a followup? God has the perfect qualities of justice and mercy. God has also asked us to be a community (the image of the Trinity, Jesus’ willingness to adopt us as his brother, praying for each other) How then can we ask for mercy for the whole world when the whole world has people in it who neither want God nor recognize God? How can our prayer be efficacious (divine mercy chaplet) for the whole world?

Is the mercy for the whole world we pray for when answered not an impact on the judgement which is perfect but mercy through graces sent to all people? Or does the charity itself soften judgement? I believe God strengthens our capacity for charity when we pray to Him, but what about others when we pray for them? In reference to the DM chaplet, is the mercy sought for all people for now, the final judgement, the general judgement or all the above?

Hey, I do not know. I am just asking. I know we all need mercy; I am just trying to get the most pleasing interior disposition for God when I dare to pray to Him.