Is eternal hellfire fair?

[spauline]

cynic,

not every action of heathens is bad. It is just that the only goodness they are capable of is NATURAL goodness.

Our destiny, however, is SUPERNATURAL.

about suffering, God foresaw and allowed evil so as to draw a greater good: now, suffering of the innocent from moral and physical evil can be united to Christ’s suffering and offered up to help merit the salvation of others.

Suffering enables us to love God, others, and even our enemies, to a greater degree than if we had never fallen.

See this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=263581

 

[CentralFLJames]

So this is how you see all non-believers ; narcisstic self-worshipers. The lense through which many Christians view the world (and I hazard a guess that they get some satisfaction out of it) Seemingly altruistic or empathetic acts are always attributed to some selfish alterior motive if not done on command from God/Christ. I think Augustine said something similiar ie. the heathen is only kind when it serves his own purpose.

Yes - anyone who does not recognize God has made himself a god. I don’t buy that the motive for believers is selfish in trying to recognize and honor God for giving us life. You are attempting to construct a condition of hypocrisy in believers by projecting your own personal biases into others as a universal condition of existence. Has it ever occurred to you that not everyone embraces cynicism as a virtue in the same manner you do?

When you were a child did you ever spontaneously consider doing something “nice” for your father or mother simply because you loved them and wanted to make them proud? Did you ever draw a picture, grow a plant, or construct a toy and proudly give it to your parents just to see them smile?

If not I pity you.

Yet this isn’t the case, even your most bigoted atheists would feel something for others, at least their family members, but if loving God first and foremost is neccessary to love others, then it shouldn’t be possible.

Bravo, this is a fledgling recognition of the presence of good in each of us. This is a tacit recognition of God’s presence in every human through His grace. This is why all of us have the ability to respond to God’s grace - we can see the face of God in others.

Every person, no mater how embittered, hurt, irreligious or mentally ill wants to be loved and appreciated. It is quite often that many of us first discover God through our recognition of admiration or inspiration of His created creatures. God has many ways of drawing us to Himself. The first lessons of hell are to experience the separation of a loved one through death and then realizing that those same feelings of separation and loss are just a foreshadowing of what hell will be like for those who get to look upon God’s face then be condemned to an eternity of separation in hell. Consider that God is a billion times more beautiful and more easily lovable that all the most beautiful people you have ever known or loved on earth and then imagine eternal separation for that. Reflect on that in the context of a lost loved one and one can start to imagine in a very small way the unfathomable pains of an eternal hell.

We were made so that we coud be restored to him from our fallen state to fulfill some divine purpose that hasn’t been revealed to us. Well that makes no sense at all. Firstly because it requires evil - the fall - and how can an all good being require evil.

The divine purpose is not fully known but appears to be principal centered to bringing maximum glory to The Son of God and in so doing - The Triune God. It also appears to be directed toward sharing that glory with God’s created creatures in a way inconceivable to us and unimaginably generous. Evil is apparently conditionally necessary to manifest the power of free choice. One can not love without choice. Choices can not be differentiated one from the other without clear differences. God apparently wants to manifest a natural glory in a creation that freely chooses His nature over His opposite - Goodness over Evil.

Somethings we must accept as mystery and too sublime for us at this time in this current state of existence. Can a caterpillar that crawls contemplate that someday it can transform itself into a flying creature - a butterfly? I doubt it - it just follows it nature. Our nature is not fixed until death and that nature is arrived at through choice and conviction to our choices. We become what we resolve to be.

It’s like if you had kids but asked them to spend their entire lives adoring you and being thankful to you for bringing them into the world, what would be the point of having children?

No, its more like orphaned and impoverish kids who see all these starry things all around them in the night sky and naturally inspired to contemplate if they are all they can be and if they could be in a relationship with whoever made all of the cosmos. And the Maker of all of Creation looking down, smiling at their awakening reveals to them through inner locution: “yes you can be in a relationship with me and if you trust me and prove yourself to be of my nature you will share in much more than anything you can see or imagine”. Then God adopting those who persevere in their trust and desire to be with God for eternity.

James

 

[FindTruth7]

You seem predisposed to focus only on the negative. Why not turn your objections to the positive and see that eternal reward is also greater than you can imagine. Has it ever occurred to you that punishment and reward are not expressed solely in sensual terms?

You make my case. You put God into the box of your own imagination and intellect - this is a type of hell. You can not imagine anything worse than physical pain while an objective person can easily imagine that there is something unspecific and unfathomable that could be worse than physical sensual pain. Ergo - in your narrow subjective view its impossible to even conceive of how much punishment you will suffer in hell since you limit it to the assumption of sensual effects only. How much less so then are we suited to conceive how much reward you will garner in heaven? Clearly, we have to trust in both cases that God in the positive sense of reckoning “rewards” all according to what they deserve. Why be so negative and self-limiting in what you can imagine? I am certain that God will do “the right thing” and in either the case (heaven or hell) do it quite well.

James

Alone in the solitary dark I also imagine is just as or if not WORSE than physical pain.

When I focus on a subject, I really truly focus on it. If it’s Hell and physical pain, then I will fully talk about it. If it’s being in Hevean with God, or Jesus Christ dying on the cross, then I will fully focus on that. It’s my condition, I have severe OCD, which causes so many problems in my everyday life.

Again with rewards, I don’t care about them, I’m not expecting anything, if I go to Heaven I just want to be with God, fall at Jesus’ feet, when it’s my turn, and worship Him personaly. Why? Because He is the ultimate beauty (more so than any woman, mountain or animal), He is the ultimate love, ultimate power and authority, my Creator and Master, and because He died for me.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Alone in the solitary dark I also imagine is just as or if not WORSE than physical pain.

When I focus on a subject, I really truly focus on it. If it’s Hell and physical pain, then I will fully talk about it. If it’s being in Hevean with God, or Jesus Christ dying on the cross, then I will fully focus on that. It’s my condition, I have severe OCD, which causes so many problems in my everyday life.

Again with rewards, I don’t care about them, I’m not expecting anything, if I go to Heaven I just want to be with God, fall at Jesus’ feet, when it’s my turn, and worship Him personaly. Why? Because He is the ultimate beauty (more so than any woman, mountain or animal), He is the ultimate love, ultimate power and authority, my Creator and Master, and because He died for me.

Funny you should mention dark. That is exactly one of the things that the saints reveal to us who have been delivered to hell to convey information. They also describe it as an impenetrable smothering “thick” darkness that is like a substance. The odors are also unimaginably putrid and mixed with the stench of sulfur and noxious fumes.

There are also the classic conveyances of demonic shapes and terrible demons that claw, eat, devour and torment specific areas of the body that have been used in commission of sin (tongue, entrails, sexual organs, eyes, etc.) and the body constantly regenerates in endless repetition of the same torments.

I’ll spare you the other details - but there is also a personal punishment unique to each person. But the worst thing is being given images of what God had intended for a soul and that it can never change its condition or have even an instant of peace or relief.

James

 

[Dark_Warrior]

Funny you should mention dark. That is exactly one of the things that the saints reveal to us who have been delivered to hell to convey information. They also describe it as an impenetrable smothering “thick” darkness that is like a substance. The odors are also unimaginably putrid and mixed with the stench of sulfur and noxious fumes.

There are also the classic conveyances of demonic shapes and terrible demons that claw, eat, devour and torment specific areas of the body that have been used in commission of sin (tongue, entrails, sexual organs, eyes, etc.) and the body constantly regenerates in endless repetition of the same torments.

I’ll spare you the other details - but there is also a personal punishment unique to each person. But the worst thing is being given images of what God had intended for a soul and that it can never change its condition or have even an instant of peace or relief.

James

I disagree with every single one of these saints visions. I’m sorry, FindTruth7 is right, it all sounds so much like mythology, like the seven layers of Hell of Dante’s Inferno.

It’s interesting that so many different faiths have visions, all claiming to be of God, yet clash on doctrine and practice. Catholic, Protestant, Hindus, Moslems, etc. Perhaps it’s all a delusion or hallucination of the mind? Logically that makes more sense. for how arrogant or selfish is it for one to say “MY vision was REAL, and ALL OTHERS are not!”

Beats me, but so many times does the Church, or people in the Church make God sound like He hates us all, and that making it to Heaven is nearly impossible.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

God love us all–anyone who doesn’t go to heaven makes that reality impossible for themselves because they reject God’s love.

And God loves us so much that He allow us to reject Him.

If we choose to go to Hell He loves us so much that He lets us go there!

 

[CentralFLJames]

I disagree with every single one of these saints visions. I’m sorry, FindTruth7 is right, it all sounds so much like mythology, like the seven layers of Hell of Dante’s Inferno.

It’s interesting that so many different faiths have visions, all claiming to be of God, yet clash on doctrine and practice. Catholic, Protestant, Hindus, Moslems, etc. Perhaps it’s all a delusion or hallucination of the mind? Logically that makes more sense. for how arrogant or selfish is it for one to say “MY vision was REAL, and ALL OTHERS are not!”

Beats me, but so many times does the Church, or people in the Church make God sound like He hates us all, and that making it to Heaven is nearly impossible.

Well, one thing I think most can agree on is that reality is definately not a function of one’s belief or disbelief.

One other thing is true too - many of these same saints tell us that hell is populated with a lot of souls who did not believe in hell and scoffed and mocked the very idea.

I guess a lot of people will find out one way or the other sooner than they like.

James

 

[cynic]

Bravo, this is a fledgling recognition of the presence of good in each of us. This is a tacit recognition of God’s presence in every human through His grace. This is why all of us have the ability to respond to God’s grace - we can see the face of God in others.

If poeple are not entirely selfish then why do they deserve an and outcome for eternity as if they were It comes back to the 'offence against God answer, as always.

Every person, no mater how embittered, hurt, irreligious or mentally ill wants to be loved and appreciated. It is quite often that many of us first discover God through our recognition of admiration or inspiration of His created creatures. God has many ways of drawing us to Himself. The first lessons of hell are to experience the separation of a loved one through death and then realizing that those same feelings of separation and loss are just a foreshadowing of what hell will be like for those who get to look upon God’s face then be condemned to an eternity of separation in hell. Consider that God is a billion times more beautiful and more easily lovable that all the most beautiful people you have ever known or loved on earth and then imagine eternal separation for that. Reflect on that in the context of a lost loved one and one can start to imagine in a very small way the unfathomable pains of an eternal hell.

I do not love my family members because they are beautiful and ‘lovable’. They have needs, they are human.

This God on the other hand needs and wants for nothing, but he requires that we base our whole existence on pleasing him, apparently. Being thankful is not enough. Only a weird imtimate type relationship with him will save us from the never-ending torment of being alone is the dark forever, along with the physical torture as the icing on the cake.

The divine purpose is not fully known but appears to be principal centered to bringing maximum glory to The Son of God and in so doing - The Triune God. It also appears to be directed toward sharing that glory with God’s created creatures in a way inconceivable to us and unimaginably generous. Evil is apparently conditionally necessary to manifest the power of free choice. One can not love without choice. Choices can not be differentiated one from the other without clear differences. God apparently wants to manifest a natural glory in a creation that freely chooses His nature over His opposite - Goodness over Evil.

The problem is that evil is required, not just allowed as a by-product of free will. That is, if our purpose is to fall and know God all the more because of it once restored.

 

[Dark_Warrior]

God love us all–anyone who doesn’t go to heaven makes that reality impossible for themselves because they reject God’s love.

And God loves us so much that He allow us to reject Him.

If we choose to go to Hell He loves us so much that He lets us go there!

Many people’s ideas of God is that He loves us, BUT (there’s always a “but”) if we reject Him, we shall be tortured worse than a serial killer could ever dream of accomplishing, forever! But oh, He loves us!

 

[Dark_Warrior]

Well, one thing I think most can agree on is that reality is definately not a function of one’s belief or disbelief.

One other thing is true too - many of these same saints tell us that hell is populated with a lot of souls who did not believe in hell and scoffed and mocked the very idea.

I guess a lot of people will find out one way or the other sooner than they like.

James

I can agree with Hell, yes, I can agree with eternal seperation from God, yes, no problem there. It’s just how you guys claim what hell IS that sounds ludicrous.

By the way, individuals among every faith, Christian or non-christian, will say that the unbeliever is rejecting “the truth” and will “one day” discover how wrong he was.

How do we know for SURE what is the truth? Because a church says so? Because an individual says so? Catholics and Greek Orthodoxs bitterly argue all the time. Catholics and educated Protestants argue about the Church Fathers all the time. Moslems say we’re ALL wrong. The Jews that the Saviour hasn’t come. Everyone has their so called evidences to claim their point. HOW DO WE KNOW?

It confuses me greatly, all the arguments.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Let me turn this around to the OP and others who are claiming God is ‘unfair’, a ‘torturer’, etc.

Tell me, please --are human beings ‘fair’? Completely, absolutely, totally fair. . .not just in one instance but in every single thought, word, and action in their lives? Every time?

Are human beings completely and totally omniscient? Do they–are they–capable of knowing every single thing about themselves and others, about the whats and whys and hows of any given ‘thing’?

I think we can agree that not only are human beings not completely ‘fair’ themselves but they are also not completely knowledgeable. Right?

That being the case, why on earth are beings who are not themselves ‘fair’ nor ‘omniscient’ setting themselves up as being ‘more fair’ or ‘more knowledgeable’ than Almighty God?

The whole point of this argument seems to be that people are saying that they don’t believe in God because He isn’t fair–yet these same people are not fair themselves nor do they even know ‘everything’ about anything (fairness, the concept, included). **But **they are claiming that because God ‘doesn’t live up to’ **their **notions, they won’t believe in Him.

Which is absurd. They’re trying to limit God and make Him adhere to incomplete and imperfect concepts and standards, and when He doesn’t (being perfect and therefore adhering to complete and perfect concepts and standards), they bleat “unfair”.

If you’re going to ‘disbelieve in God’, at least educate yourselves so that you know what you’re ‘disbelieving’. Because right now, you aren’t rejecting God–you’ve erected a false god which you have made and are **calling **“God” and you’re attempting to foist that god onto Christians as “the Christian god”.

If you learn about who God really is, if you really understand that God is Love and not this ‘puppet’ thing that you have made to be imperfect and hateful, you are more likely to embrace the real God than to reject Him. …

 

[FindTruth7]

Let me turn this around to the OP and others who are claiming God is ‘unfair’, a ‘torturer’, etc.

Tell me, please --are human beings ‘fair’? Completely, absolutely, totally fair. . .not just in one instance but in every single thought, word, and action in their lives? Every time?

Are human beings completely and totally omniscient? Do they–are they–capable of knowing every single thing about themselves and others, about the whats and whys and hows of any given ‘thing’?

I think we can agree that not only are human beings not completely ‘fair’ themselves but they are also not completely knowledgeable. Right?

That being the case, why on earth are beings who are not themselves ‘fair’ nor ‘omniscient’ setting themselves up as being ‘more fair’ or ‘more knowledgeable’ than Almighty God?

The whole point of this argument seems to be that people are saying that they don’t believe in God because He isn’t fair–yet these same people are not fair themselves nor do they even know ‘everything’ about anything (fairness, the concept, included). **But **they are claiming that because God ‘doesn’t live up to’ **their **notions, they won’t believe in Him.

Which is absurd. They’re trying to limit God and make Him adhere to incomplete and imperfect concepts and standards, and when He doesn’t (being perfect and therefore adhering to complete and perfect concepts and standards), they bleat “unfair”.

If you’re going to ‘disbelieve in God’, at least educate yourselves so that you know what you’re ‘disbelieving’. Because right now, you aren’t rejecting God–you’ve erected a false god which you have made and are **calling **“God” and you’re attempting to foist that god onto Christians as “the Christian god”.

If you learn about who God really is, if you really understand that God is Love and not this ‘puppet’ thing that you have made to be imperfect and hateful, you are more likely to embrace the real God than to reject Him. …

I believe in God, I’m not saying I do not. But tell me, what is “fair?” Surely if we’re human then we are not “fair.” But what is “fair?” When a cheater wins a race or scores highest on a test, tell me how does that make you feel? Angry, upset? Why? Because it’s not FAIR.

God has given us an understanding of what “fairness” is.

I believe in Hell, I just don’t think it’s as so many within the Church claim it is, a place where demons tortue the dammed sols (I thought demons were to be thrown into the lake of fire and suffer as well?) or a place where you’re poked by hot needle points, or flesh ripped off and salt poured on, regenerate, all to happen again, forever and ever. Sound to mythical to me.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Thank you for your post, FindTruth, but I don’t believe you took the point I was making.

Yes, God has given us an ‘understanding’ of fairness but that–as I noted in my post–is both imperfect and incomplete.

Now how can imperfect and incomplete beings claim that their imperfect and incomplete understanding is ‘more fair’ than the perfect and complete understanding of God?

As for the rest of your post on the nature of hell–that’s a topic for another thread. In the context of this thread we are discussing the concept of ‘fairness’ of eternal hellfire, not whether we personally ‘believe’ in that description of hell.

 

[FindTruth7]

Thank you for your post, FindTruth, but I don’t believe you took the point I was making.

Yes, God has given us an ‘understanding’ of fairness but that–as I noted in my post–is both imperfect and incomplete.

Now how can imperfect and incomplete beings claim that their imperfect and incomplete understanding is ‘more fair’ than the perfect and complete understanding of God?

As for the rest of your post on the nature of hell–that’s a topic for another thread. In the context of this thread we are discussing the concept of ‘fairness’ of eternal hellfire, not whether we personally ‘believe’ in that description of hell.

I’m sorry. Apologies.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Quite all right–and God bless you.

 

[ncgolf]

I can agree with Hell, yes, I can agree with eternal seperation from God, yes, no problem there. It’s just how you guys claim what hell IS that sounds ludicrous.

By the way, individuals among every faith, Christian or non-christian, will say that the unbeliever is rejecting “the truth” and will “one day” discover how wrong he was.

How do we know for SURE what is the truth? Because a church says so? Because an individual says so? Catholics and Greek Orthodoxs bitterly argue all the time. Catholics and educated Protestants argue about the Church Fathers all the time. Moslems say we’re ALL wrong. The Jews that the Saviour hasn’t come. Everyone has their so called evidences to claim their point. HOW DO WE KNOW?

It confuses me greatly, all the arguments.

You ask the same question as Pontius Pilate. He too asked what truth is … and he was standing in the presence of truth incarnate.

I think the first step is to understand what you are looking for. What does it mean … truth. What would be its qualities … how could I even recognize it? Could I be in front of truth and not be able to see it? A quality of truth is it cannot change … ever. If it could change then it would not have been truth in the first place … so it has to be something unchanging. How can you recognize it. Well for one thing … (these are my thoughts) I dont believe truth occurs naturally … it is not a natural (created) object, I think it is supernatural so it is beyond what we can see with our natural senses. I think this is what “seeing with the eyes of faith” means.

I go back to Scripture when Jesus asks his disciples who do people say that I am … some of them said Elijah, Moses … whatever … only Peter said “You are the Son of the Living God” … Peter saw … knew not by his own senses or intellect but by a grace given. Was this dependent on Peter’s intelligence? No … Was it because Peter was better than the others? No …Why not the others?

Truth is not a concept or an ideal but a real, living person … Jesus Christ. In the end that is where your search will begin and end. Your ability to see truth is not up to you … is not a function of your intelligence, goodness or anything else … it is a gift, just like what Jesus told Peter … flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but by my Heavenly Father. So what does this mean then … I think this … all who seek … find. Forget the disagreement … always be a seeker.

 

[CentralFLJames]

If poeple are not entirely selfish then why do they deserve an and outcome for eternity as if they were It comes back to the 'offence against God answer, as always.

I suppose you have answered your own question then. Consider that there is something important to God about the idea of the willingness to “sacrifice” for others or Him as a demonstration of a viable love that will “stick” through eternity and be representative of who you really are as a unique entity.

I do not love my family members because they are beautiful and ‘lovable’. They have needs, they are human.

I don’t think God distinguishes why a person loves someone since love in the objective sense is accepting people as they are without over regard to what one expects in return. If your family happens to be ugly and unaffectionate - then it sounds to me like you are either recognizing something you can empathize with or are suffering to prevail in the face of difficult challenges. In either case it sounds like a labor of love to me.

This God on the other hand needs and wants for nothing, but he requires that we base our whole existence on pleasing him, apparently. Being thankful is not enough. Only a weird imtimate type relationship with him will save us from the never-ending torment of being alone is the dark forever, along with the physical torture as the icing on the cake.

I don’t think its so much about basing our existence on the notion of pleasing him so much as it is is desiring to do well by him and trust him and have faith in him. I somehow imagine that the Creator God who made All would understand if someone was having a bad day and anxieties about paying bills to keep the roof over their head and happened to spend the entire day running around borrowing money or getting odd jobs to prevent his family from being evicted onto the streets rather than praying 24 hrs.
I really think God would be very pleased if more people just spoke to Him at least daily for 15 or 20 minutes. You sound like a person who is bitter about God - maybe you should talk to Him about it.

The problem is that evil is required, not just allowed as a by-product of free will. That is, if our purpose is to fall and know God all the more because of it once restored.

It might seem so for now but we know that Greater Good triumphs in this Cosmic struggle that we find ourselves a part of. It sounds to me like there is a glory so unimaginably better than we can conceive that none of the suffering we all experience will matter in the least on the other side - except for giving us a sense of participation and sharing in that glory. Does a baby recollect its discomfort in struggling in the womb after it is born? Is struggle and trial evil? I don’t think so. Gravity gives us a thing to pull against and a means by which to know which way is “up” and “down”. Similar is the notion of resistance to the temptation to sin - which itself is not evil except for in submitting in the act.The objective is eternal life.

The problem is not agreeing with God’s plan. Personally I think I can trust God Creator of All to do the right thing since He seems to be able to orchestrate quite a bit of the physical world we can see. How much more so heaven? What viable and plausible alternative to God is there? Self? I know myself better than that to trust “me”.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

I can agree with Hell, yes, I can agree with eternal seperation from God, yes, no problem there. It’s just how you guys claim what hell IS that sounds ludicrous.

By the way, individuals among every faith, Christian or non-christian, will say that the unbeliever is rejecting “the truth” and will “one day” discover how wrong he was.

How do we know for SURE what is the truth? Because a church says so? Because an individual says so? Catholics and Greek Orthodoxs bitterly argue all the time. Catholics and educated Protestants argue about the Church Fathers all the time. Moslems say we’re ALL wrong. The Jews that the Saviour hasn’t come. Everyone has their so called evidences to claim their point. HOW DO WE KNOW?

It confuses me greatly, all the arguments.

For the record I don’t have a fixed and set notion of what exactly hell is. All I know for sure and care about is that I don’t want to go there. So if turns out to fall anywhere between the extremes of a place of unimaginable torture and horrors and a empty dark and solitaire state of self existence sequestered from any relationship but self then I still don’t want any part of it or for anyone I know on the planet to go there. If I had my way I’d want all to attain some level of happiness proportional to their true nature. But I think this is the fundamental problem - I think the true nature of each of us is hidden by God’s grace and at death those that did not “embrace” that grace have it stripped and those without any look monstrous and are fixed into a demonic nature.

As for how we know the truth - we have to assume that God implanted in each of us an organic means by which we can discern Him. It is not just a function of intellect - there is a real inner genuine “feeling” that is not sensual in nature but is more core to the person when somone knows a thing to be true. That is what I would call a sort of soul revelation. Those who are preoccupied with sensual pursuits are flooded with sensual perceptions that drown out the spirital senses that we all have. So God finds ways to talk to us through “the noise” - each night we all dream. My own theory is this is one of various ways that God plants His spiritual messages into the conscious mind.

Admittedly there is a lot of confusion and falsehood out there. Clearly everyone can’t be right. If one goes on the assumption of the Benevolent and Good God (God help us if He turns out to be not benevolent - if you can accept that contradiction) then one really has no choice but to Trust in God. The best trust though is a trust that is an active trust formed on a relationship. I truly believe that any person on the planet, independent of their religious beliefs will be progressively moved to the truth by a simple daily conscious act of active trust in God. We only need to desire and will it and it should happen.

James

 

[Filius_Prodigus]

Grazie!

 

[Dark_Warrior]

For the record I don’t have a fixed and set notion of what exactly hell is. All I know for sure and care about is that I don’t want to go there. So if turns out to fall anywhere between the extremes of a place of unimaginable torture and horrors and a empty dark and solitaire state of self existence sequestered from any relationship but self then I still don’t want any part of it or for anyone I know on the planet to go there. If I had my way I’d want all to attain some level of happiness proportional to their true nature. But I think this is the fundamental problem - I think the true nature of each of us is hidden by God’s grace and at death those that did not “embrace” that grace have it stripped and those without any look monstrous and are fixed into a demonic nature.

As for how we know the truth - we have to assume that God implanted in each of us an organic means by which we can discern Him. It is not just a function of intellect - there is a real inner genuine “feeling” that is not sensual in nature but is more core to the person when somone knows a thing to be true. That is what I would call a sort of soul revelation. Those who are preoccupied with sensual pursuits are flooded with sensual perceptions that drown out the spirital senses that we all have. So God finds ways to talk to us through “the noise” - each night we all dream. My own theory is this is one of various ways that God plants His spiritual messages into the conscious mind.

Admittedly there is a lot of confusion and falsehood out there. Clearly everyone can’t be right. If one goes on the assumption of the Benevolent and Good God (God help us if He turns out to be not benevolent - if you can accept that contradiction) then one really has no choice but to Trust in God. The best trust though is a trust that is an active trust formed on a relationship. I truly believe that any person on the planet, independent of their religious beliefs will be progressively moved to the truth by a simple daily conscious act of active trust in God. We only need to desire and will it and it should happen.

James

Agree