Is eternal punishment in hell really a just punishment? [Update: YES]

[stpurl]

Er ahem. Unless you’ve died and returned, you cannot say that this ‘isn’t possible’. All you can say is that you personally don’t think it is.

 

[oliver109]

It is not fair that a person who chooses between good and evil through their whole life should die choosing evil, how absurd is that! If i was God i would do things differently. Even St Augustine had difficulty explaining why God saves one sinner and not another, he simply said “God’s judgement is inscrutable”

 

[stpurl]

Here I can categorically state thank GOD that GOD is God.

OK, hon, I get that you’re miffed because you think God isn’t fair, and you don’t seem to want to accept anything and just keep on reiterating, “He isn’t fair.”

But He is.

And since my playground days are long behind me, I’ll wish you a pleasant evening. I hope some day you’ll want to think about this with a more open attitude.

 

[oliver109]

I am trying to be as open as possible, God is fair but the explanations i have heard have not been at least in my opinion that satisfactory, if God is fair then the fairness in his decisions needs to be better explained.

 

[bruisedreed]

Im with you @oliver109. I think that if any of these well-intentioned people praising their understanding of God’s justice were to really meditate on the meaning of “forever” then they would feel as you do. It’s hard for me to believe that any honest person upon considering the eternity of hell in depth would find it just, in any sense of that word that we humans can conceive.

The reality of the matter is that this is a terrifying and shocking mystery which the human mind can never conceive of nor fully accept. We as Christians believe two things: (1) such a possibility is real, (2) God is a tender and loving God. How these two principles reconcile with each other is something we can only discover in heaven.

This is why saints who spent long hours in meditation on hell developed a hatred for that meditation. When asked what she thought about hell, St Teresa of Avila said “I don’t”.

 

[oliver109]

Thank you very much for your sympathy, the mystery of Hell is one that seems unexplainable, i am hopeful that the Church will one day come to a more rational explanation of why God saves some and not all, until then i will keep praying that he saves everyone as i firmly believe that everyone deserves/underserves salvation.

 

[Latin]

God could enable the sinner to repent after they die(it is not impossible) but he chooses not to, why i don’t know.

Because no one need it. God’s Love and Justice demand to save everyone and to give everyone His undeserved gift of Final Perseverance which is an infallible protection of the salvation of every receiver.

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Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.

Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His gift of grace of Final Perseverance.

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A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP James akin

Aquinas said the gift of final perseverance is “the abiding in good to the end of life. In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…[A]fter anyone has been justified by grace, he still needs to beseech God for the aforesaid gift of perseverance.” ST I-II:109:10.
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The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43]

1. Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “that great and special gift of final perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written: ‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13] which cannot be obtained from anyone except from him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]”

CCC 2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance. – Gives Infallible protection of the salvation of EVERY RECEIVER, there is no salvation without it. Infallible teachings of the Trent and formal teachings of the Catholic Church.

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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
. . . None of those things which precede justification - whether faith or works - merit the grace itself of justification.
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CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

While St. Thomas says that man turns to God by his own free will, he explains that free-will can only be turn to God, when God turns it.
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From the above teachings, we know with certainty, it is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US and to keep us saved, otherwise we all lost without exception.
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God bless

 

[Latin]

God doesn’t fix our will at death, we do.

God does not only fixing our will, God himself operates in our will.

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
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CCC 308 For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it. But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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CCC 307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan. They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.
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St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

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For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate”.
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)

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St. Augustine on Grace and Predestination

I.(1) On human interaction with grace: Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.
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De gratia Christi 25, 26: “For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it”
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: “It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good … . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act , providing most effective powers to the will.”
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
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As we see above, God is the CREATOR, CAUSER/ DETERMINER of our Free will, and we all freely will what God wills us to will and we all freely do what God wills and CAUSES us to do.

CCC 2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
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God bless

 

[EugeneCharles]

God is not only fixing our will, God himself operates in our will.

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).

I agree with you but I also agree with Margaret Anne because, at the very last time, it’s still our decision and we should accept each outcome. Just like when we’re making a decision, we can’t blame God if it happens that we’ll experience troubles.

Adam and Eve can’t blame God because He created the Tree of Knowledge or because they fall into temptation, both of them have been gifted with free will and conscience.

Every good work, even good will, is the work of God.

Till in the end, God’s decision will prevail and at the same time, we do our own decision and take our own path. But I don’t mean that it wasn’t God’s will. God is letting us take the challenge and face its result but He’s always there to repair every damage and build us. Though there’s Divine intervention, we can’t avoid that sometimes it happens that a person won’t convert till death. Yet, in the end, God’s Holy Will always prevails.

Thank you very much for both of you, I was somehow able to understand God’s Will on a clearer context!

 

[Latin]

Plese @EugeneCharles, read again carefully my above posts 49 and 50, in particular 49.

CCCS 1996-1998; God’s call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.”
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Another point:

Did you @EugeneCharles notice?

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
.
Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide dogma). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His gift of grace of Final Perseverance.

It is God’s sole responsibility to save us and to take all of us up to heaven.

It is God’s sole responsibility to keep us saved by virtue of His gift of Final Perseverance, which is an infallible protection of the salvation of every receiver.
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No ifs or buts: Dogmatic teachings of the Catholic Church and infallible teachings of the Trent, every receiver of God’s unmerited gift of Final Perseverance must end up in heaven, otherwise God would instantly lose His omniscience.

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OUR DESTINY/ FATE IS NOT IN US, IT IS IN GOD!

For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate”.
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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You wrote @EugeneCharles: … at the very last time, it’s still our decision …

Of course it is our decision because: God himself operates in the will, and God is the CREATOR, CAUSER/ DETERMINER of our Free will, our first free will decision and our last free will decision.

There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide dogma).
.
CCC 2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
.
CCC 308 For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
St. Thomas (C. G., II, xxviii) if God’s purpose were made dependent on the foreseen free act of any creature, God would thereby sacrifice His own freedom, and would submit Himself to His creatures, thus abdicating His essential supremacy a thing which is, of course, utterly inconceivable.
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God bless

 

[AdamP88]

That person unless profoundly immoral may have been making an effort to turn away from sin, going to confession, going to mass etc, they just happened to die in their sin and went to Hell after living in and out of sin.

As I said, God will take any bit of repentance to bring you to Him.

 

[Pitcairn17]

When I was on retreat years ago the priest explained it this way (I’m going by memory here):

The dignity of the person offended determines the degree of the offense. If I slap you (not that I would!), and then say I’m sorry, you may or may not forgive me. If you do, we shake hands and everything is OK.

Now when John Hinckley tried to assassinate President Reagan, the entire country wanted him put to death. However, due to his “Twinkie defense”, he got life imprisonment. (Btw, the Secret Service still watches him.)

Since God is infinite, therefore sin is an infinite offense. If you took ALL the prayers and good works of all the Angels and Saints, it would not suffice to cancel out ONE mortal sin. Think about it.

That’s why Our Lord came to redeem us. ONLY His Blood, Life, sufferings, Passion and Death on the Cross sufficed to make infinite satisfaction for the original sin of Adam and Eve plus our sins. Rom. 5: 20: And where sin abounded, grace did more abound. IOW, He made infinite satisfaction for ALL the sins of the world - from Adam & Eve to the last sin on the last day.

However, each soul must have His Precious Blood applied to him or her through the Sacraments. Baptism and the other 5 Sacraments derive their efficacy from the Precious Blood of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.

The “Twinkie defense” was used by Dan White after shooting San Francisco mayor George Moscone and activist Harvey Milk - not by John Hinkley. Hinkley used an insanity plea based on narcissistic personality disorder.

 

[EugeneCharles]

But what happened with the souls who are in hell and in purgatory?

They are in hell or purgatory because of the pride in their hearts. They didn’t repent till the last time that’s why some of them are there. It’s their own will not repent and God, for sure, doesn’t want them to be in hell as your source has said that the Lord wants them to be in heaven.

 

[Vico]

Sin However mortal does not need to have eternal consequences if God decides that the consequences should only be temporary, am i right? …

With lack of final repentence there is eternal consequence, but also there is a loss of opportunity to gain merit during the time without sanctifying grace, and that effects the degree of Beatific Vision for those that attain heaven, and also the amount of temporal punishment for those that pass through the purgatorial state.