Is Eucharistic Adoration idolatry?

[adnauseum]

michaelp:

Interesting thread. Just a quick question that really disturbs me. If you could point me in the right direction to have this question answered.

If the eucharist actually turns into the body, blood, and soul of Christ, when does it turn back to bread and wine? If it does not, theoretically, if that is all that I ate to live, I myself would become Christ since no other elements would contribute to my physicality than Christ’s body, blood, and soul.

So, if this is true, do any of you think that you are really, actually Christ, cell for cell, blood for blood? If not, how do you get past this?

In sencerity,

Michael

I can point you somewhat in the right direction. From the earliest days of the Church, only believers were to receive the Eucharist. The Eucharist is life indeed for those who believe, but a curse for those who receive it inauthentically.

I suspect anyone who received the Eucharist in a disordered way would have bigger problems than the mere expectation to turn into Christ.

Anyway, the medieval theologians did a lot of work on specific questions about the Eucharist, such as what would happen if a church mouse were to eat crumbs from the Eucharist [good news, it turns out it is indeed not possible for a mouse to receive the body of Christ]. Look around and I’m sure you’ll come to some details on many questions like this.

 

[michaelp]

adnauseum:

I can point you somewhat in the right direction. From the earliest days of the Church, only believers were to receive the Eucharist. The Eucharist is life indeed for those who believe, but a curse for those who receive it inauthentically.

I suspect anyone who received the Eucharist in a disordered way would have bigger problems than the mere expectation to turn into Christ.

Anyway, the medieval theologians did a lot of work on specific questions about the Eucharist, such as what would happen if a church mouse were to eat crumbs from the Eucharist [good news, it turns out it is indeed not possible for a mouse to receive the body of Christ]. Look around and I’m sure you’ll come to some details on many questions like this.

Thanks. Has anyone else thought about this?

 

[Lost_Found]

Malachi4U:

If the Eucharist is Jesus then we should bow down and adore it. If the Eucharist is not Jesus but we adore it as if it were Jesus then we are still giving the adoration to Jesus where it is due.

So logically a Catholic is adoring Jesus no matter what. Now the problem comes in with protestant opinions (just pick one). If the Eucharist is Jesus and they spurn it and insult it then they insult Jesus directly, an unforgivable sin. If it is just bread then they insult Catholics. Either way the protestants have the delima not the Catholics here. Catholic practice can only give glory and honor to God. Protestant practice though can lead to serious sin. Protestants would be insulting God by not adoring the Eucharist or being unChristian by insulting others instead of showing forgiveness as Christ taught us.

For Catholics its win win.

For protestants it’s lose lose.

Read John 6 and study the writtings of the Church BEFORE we even had a bible. The Eucharist IS Jesus, there can be no doubt.

Praise God!

Malachi- As usual your analysis is well-thought through to the next steps, for anyone with an accepting heart and who wishes to take the time to also think about it.

 

[Lost_Found]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Malachi,Is Jesus seated at the right hand of the Father or not? Does He constantanly leave His seat and is back and forth.He said He would leave us the Holy spirit. Ive heard Jesus does stand up once in a while. God Bless

You limit Jesus to what your mind can grasp. In Jesus’ day mystery was accepted. Less so today.

These are two entirely different topics - the Eucharist, and Jesus being seated at the right hand of the Father - I don’t know why you feel they need to be linked in the way that you mention.

If you want to start using that argument we can point to Matthew 28:20 where Jesus says He is with us always, yes, even to the end of time. So you can justify Him being with us, and seated at the right hand at the same time, no problem there huh?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Malachi,Is Jesus seated at the right hand of the Father or not? Does He constantanly leave His seat and is back and forth.He said He would leave us the Holy spirit. Ive heard Jesus does stand up once in a while. God Bless

Jesus said I will be with you even until the end of the world Come home spoken:crying:

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Michael and Angainer and Spokenword,here is a website of approved Eucharistic Miracles as well as Early Church info.God Bless

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/a3.html

 

[Lost_Found]

Let’s be truthful, our non-Catholic brothers and sisters. Christianity is ALL based on the gift of faith. I mean we can’t go back in time to “prove” it. Or what I would consider historical “proof” could be completely denied as proof by someone else. I have chosen to believe on what I consider sufficient evidence in my mind and in my heart.

Isn’t is curious, then, how you would choose to stop your gift of faith when it comes to the Eucharist? Yet if you re-read John 6 from a faith perspective, you can see it as such a poweful test of faith. People who had been tailing Him by land & sea…walk away!
And, the reader may “walk away” from the difficult teaching as well. But a Protestant would be the first to say they put their faith in the Word of Jesus, and here it is!

 

[MariaG]

Although I too pray someday Spokenword will find his way home, think of how hard it is when he did not have a “radical encounter with the Risen Lord, Jesus Christ” in the Catholic Church, but first had that encounter after he left.

I just wanted to say that because someone else posted it over on the atonement thread. It was said by Bishop Nicholas DeMarzio of the diocese of Brooklyn in one of his pastoral letters. I just wanted to share it here too so I had to somehow fit it into the thread here .

May Spokenword have a radical encounter with the Risen Lord, Jesus Christ within the Catholic Church as well as without. May God bless all who have not yet had a “radical experience with the Risen Lord” today

More to the topic, as others have pointed out, Christ will be with us always, yet is also seated at the right hand of the Father. If this is not a contradiction, then the Real Presence is not a contradiction to “seated at the right hand…”. And if Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, how can that be idolatry to worship and adore Christ?

And once a person realizes that Christ is present, through Eucharistic adoration we can renew and keep fresh, those “radical encounters” with our Risen Lord, Jesus Christ.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Lost_Found]

(Thursday night rant - here’s some more you won’t want to hear )

To anyone who may have left the Catholic faith or who practices Christianity without the Eucharist. That’s fine, but consider Jesus words J.B. John 6:53 if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood,

YOU WILL NOT HAVE LIFE IN YOU. :crying:

 

[jimmy]

michaelp:

Interesting thread. Just a quick question that really disturbs me. If you could point me in the right direction to have this question answered.

If the eucharist actually turns into the body, blood, and soul of Christ, when does it turn back to bread and wine? If it does not, theoretically, if that is all that I ate to live, I myself would become Christ since no other elements would contribute to my physicality than Christ’s body, blood, and soul.

So, if this is true, do any of you think that you are really, actually Christ, cell for cell, blood for blood? If not, how do you get past this?

In sencerity,

Michael

You don’t become Christ. Christ is an infinate being. We are merely men and can never be infinite like He is.

 

[michaelp]

jimmy:

You don’t become Christ. Christ is an infinate being. We are merely men and can never be infinite like He is.

So then the Eucharist is not really Christ, or does it cease to be Christ when it enters your body or sometime shortly after???

It the Eucharist infinite??

Michael

 

[CreosMary]

Gosh, obedience to the Magisterium would be a nice thing…
Eucharist Makes the Church (Part 1)
Father Paul McPartlan on the Centrality of the Sacrament

LONDON, FEB. 24, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Theologian Henri de Lubac proposed that the first millennium was characterized by the idea that “the Eucharist makes the Church,” whereas the second millennium held more to the idea that “the Church makes the Eucharist.”

Father Paul McPartlan – professor of dogmatic theology at the University of London, member of the Vatican’s International Theological Commission and author of “Sacrament of Salvation: An Introduction to Eucharistic Ecclesiology” (T&T Clark/Continuum) – agrees that both statements are still true today.

He shared with ZENIT the centrality, significance and evolution of the Eucharist’s relationship with the Church.

Part 2 of this interview will appear Friday.

Q: What role does the Eucharist play in the life of the Church?

Father McPartlan: The Eucharist is at the very core of the life of the Church and gives the Church its identity.

The Church is the Body of Christ, and, as St. Augustine taught, we receive the body of Christ in order to become the body of Christ: “Be what you see and receive what you are.”

The whole mystery of Christ and of the Church as his body is what we receive in the Eucharist. This sacrament therefore renews our life together in Christ; in other words, it renews the Church.

“The Church draws her life from the Eucharist,” as Pope John Paul II said at the start of his encyclical “Ecclesia de Eucharistia.”

The life that we share in Christ is the life of the Trinity, because Christ is the Son of God incarnate, and that life is one of perfect communion. The phrase we use about receiving the Eucharist is really very significant; we say we are receiving Communion. There is such a lot of meaning concentrated in that phrase.

We are receiving Christ himself, but the life he shares with us is the communion life of the Trinity – the very life that calls us out of our own individualism and draws us together as the Church.

The Eucharist renews the very gift that makes us to be the Church, and it follows that the community dimension of the Eucharist is of the utmost importance. It is really communities, and ultimately the Church as a whole, that receives the Eucharist, not just lots of individuals.

We should always be conscious of those with whom we receive; the Eucharist renews our life as brothers and sisters, caring for one another and working together to bear witness to the communion life of the Kingdom of God.

Our life in Christ begins, of course, with baptism, and people sometimes think that an emphasis on the Eucharist as making the Church detracts from the importance of baptism in making the Church. We must avoid any such impression.

Baptism and Eucharist are both given to us by Christ and therefore there can never be any rivalry between them. Rather we must understand how they fit together. What baptism begins in us, the Eucharist renews, strengthens and sustains.

For instance, in every Eucharist we are washed by the blood of the Lamb, as it says in Revelation 7:14; it is a washing that renews the washing in water that we received in baptism. We must never forget that there is forgiveness in the Eucharist, particularly expressed when we receive under both kinds and drink from the cup of the Lord.

In a sense, the Eucharist keeps the grace of our baptism fresh in us until the moment when it is consummated at our death. As we pray in the Mass for a deceased person: “In baptism she died with Christ, may she also share his resurrection.”

…

 

[CreosMary]

continued;
Q: What does it mean that “the Church makes the Eucharist” and “the Eucharist makes the Church”?

Father McPartlan: These two phrases were coined by the great French Jesuit Henri de Lubac [1896-1991], who was a leading pioneer of the renewal of the Church at the Second Vatican Council and became a cardinal toward the end of his long life.

Both are true, of course. However, he thought that the first millennium, and especially the era of the Fathers of the early Church, was characterized by the idea that “the Eucharist makes the Church;” whereas the second millennium, the era of scholasticism, held more to the idea that “the Church makes the Eucharist.”

It is clear from the title of the Pope’s encyclical that we have returned in recent times, particularly after Vatican II thanks to the work of de Lubac and others, to a more patristic point of view.

The two phrases in fact tend to identify two rather different perceptions of the Church. If we say that the Eucharist makes the Church then we will readily understand that the Church is itself a family of Eucharistic communities, a communion of local churches, which was the patristic model.

However, de Lubac showed that the community dimension of the Eucharist suffered greatly as a result of Eucharistic controversy at the start of the second millennium. Much more attention was paid to the fact that bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ than to the fact that the Church then receives these transformed gifts and is itself transformed in Christ.

The Eucharist ceased to shape the Church and became one of seven sacraments that the Church celebrates. Hence, the Church makes the Eucharist.

Juridical factors then began to shape the Church, and the standard picture of the Church in the scholastic era is that of an institutional pyramid, with the pope at the top. Vatican II grappled with how to integrate these two pictures of the Church and this is still an issue today.

Nevertheless, we can certainly say that the Council showed a strong desire to reinstate patristic perspectives. We naturally speak nowadays of the Church as a Eucharistic communion of local churches and this is of immense importance ecumenically.

 

[RobbyS]

Angainor:

If it is Christ up on the altar in the form of bread and wine, why not call it “Christ”? As in, “Look that is Christ on the altar.”

As it is, you have a different word for it, “the Eucharist”. The two things are not interchangable. The Eucharist is related to Christ, but it would not be fair to say the Eucharist is Christ. If it is something other than compltely Christ, then I cannot say it is worthy of worship.

For Lutherans, the Lord’s Supper is a form of worship. It is a way to worship Jesus. The meal itself is not worshiped.

. Normally the host is kept in the tabernacle, which like the tabernacle in the temple where God is present. When we bend the knee, we are bending it to God.

 

[CreosMary]

Finally;
Q: What progress has there been in ecumenical discussion of the Eucharist?

Father McPartlan: The Catholic Church joined the ecumenical movement as a result of the Second Vatican Council, largely through the insight that ecumenism is really the striving for catholicity, which is surely what the Catholic Church is all about. It was particularly the French Dominican Yves Congar [1904-1995], another great pioneer of the Council, who promoted this crucial insight.

Since the Council, a number of very important ecumenical agreed statements on the Eucharist have been produced, with a growing perception across the Christian family that the Eucharist is somehow a key to the mystery of the Church. If we are seeking Church unity, we must seriously consider the Eucharist.

While there is not yet full agreement on the Eucharist, we can certainly note progress toward a fuller and richer shared understanding of the sacrament.

It is striking that certain perspectives on the Eucharist that we have rather neglected in the recent past recur time and again in these agreed statements. It is as if the rediscovery of these perspectives is really promoting a growing consensus where previously there was only controversy.

The particular perspectives I would highlight are the links between the Eucharist and the Church community, the Holy Spirit and the future, respectively, all of which are profoundly scriptural and traditional.

If in the recent past we have tended to think of the Eucharist as the occasion when each of us as an individual meets Christ himself and is fed in a re-enactment of the past event of the Last Supper, we are learning now to extend and expand this rather limited picture.

In the Eucharist, Christ is feeding the Church, and each of us as members of the Church. It is also an occasion when the Holy Spirit is powerfully active, not only transforming the gifts of bread and wine but also transforming those who receive. Finally, it is not just a memorial of a past event; it is also a foretaste of the future kingdom.

One sentence from the 1982 Lima Report on “Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry” – from the World Council of Churches’ Faith and Order Commission, in which the Catholic Church fully participates – is eloquent on these three points: “The Holy Spirit through the Eucharist gives a foretaste of the Kingdom of God: the Church receives the life of the new creation and the assurance of the Lord’s return.”

Another sentence shows important convergence on a proper understanding of the sacrificial aspect of the Eucharist: “The Eucharist is the sacrament of the unique sacrifice of Christ, who ever lives to make intercession for us.”

[Friday: Sharing in Christ’s life]
ZE05022424

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

michaelp:

So then the Eucharist is not really Christ, or does it cease to be Christ when it enters your body or sometime shortly after???

It the Eucharist infinite??

Michael

The Eucharist is Christ,period.You ignored the link I left for you a few posts up:tsktsk: Michael people were martyred for Jesus in the Eucharist so please try to be respectful when questioning.He did not say the Eucharist is not Christ,you asked him if we turned into Christ after partaking in the Eucharist,that sounds like you talk about a magic trick The reality of the Eucharist is a profound mystery that I pray one day you will partake in,they walked away from Jesus then sadly it is still a hard saying to take,but I have the utmost confidence God will reveal himself through this mystery and you will believe what Jesus said so long ago.God Bless

 

[michaelp]

Lisa4Catholics:

The Eucharist is Christ,period.You ignored the link I left for you a few posts up:tsktsk: Michael people were martyred for Jesus in the Eucharist so please try to be respectful when questioning.He did not say the Eucharist is not Christ,you asked him if we turned into Christ after partaking in the Eucharist,that sounds like you talk about a magic trick The reality of the Eucharist is a profound mystery that I pray one day you will partake in,they walked away from Jesus then sadly it is still a hard saying to take,but I have the utmost confidence God will reveal himself through this mystery and you will believe what Jesus said so long ago.God Bless

Lisa, it is a very serious question. I only came up with it after reading this thread. The question still stands. In a very literal sense, we are what we eat. So, if the Eucharist is Christ’s body and blood and soul, do you become Christ when you eat it?

1. When does the eucharist cease to be Christ’s actual body, blood, and soul.
2. If it does not cease to be Christ’s body, blood, and soul, do you become Christ literally? Can a person theoretically eat only the Eucharist and after 7 years be Christ (since 99.9 percent of the bodies cellular structure completely reconstructs itself every 7 years).
3. If not, how can it be literally His body, blood, and soul?

Lisa, I know that you all have thought about this before. It is not a loaded question. I am quite sincere in it.

Michael

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

michaelp:

Lisa, it is a very serious question. I only came up with it after reading this thread. The question still stands. In a very literal sense, we are what we eat. So, if the Eucharist is Christ’s body and blood and soul, do you become Christ when you eat it?

1. When does the eucharist cease to be Christ’s actual body, blood, and soul.
2. If it does not cease to be Christ’s body, blood, and soul, do you become Christ literally? Can a person theoretically eat only the Eucharist and after 7 years be Christ (since 99.9 percent of the bodies cellular structure completely reconstructs itself every 7 years).
3. If not, how can it be literally His body, blood, and soul?

Lisa, I know that you all have thought about this before. It is not a loaded question. I am quite sincere in it.

Michael

Let me ask you This,and reflect on it please(oh,I am glad your not mocking I thought you were having a breakdown)We in Christs Church are said to be part of the body of Christ,can you agree with that?You I believe are asking if we become Christ the diety What in the world:nope: Okay let me try to understand what you are asking.Christ is literally in the Eucharist he is the manna from Heaven,this is the ultimate summit of our Faith.You are getting into scientific mess,I left a link on the Eucharist please read it.You I think are trying to bring a spiritual truth and mystery and wittle it down to a scientific argument.The Eucharistic Miracles have been scientifically proven and studied.But I don’t know if anyone has had blood drawn after the Eucharist Let me ask you a question.Why is it that you can believe that almighty God came down from heaven and became man,he was crucified died and was buried and rose from the dead and ascended to heaven and you have a hard time believing what Jesus said about it being His body and blood you can’t believe it?That amazes me me.He let people walk away,if He was talking symbolically He would have been bound to correct them in theor thinking or it would have been deception.God can not decieve,that is an impossibility.No, Michael I have never thought about the question before, my heart,and the grace of faith confirms it is true,I wish you understood and I pray for your understanding,most of all I pray that before you meet Him in heaven you meet Him in the Eucharist.God Bless and don’t forget the link Oh and give me an update on the Diary of Divine Mercy.

 

[st_felicity]

michaelp:

So, if this is true, do any of you think that you are really, actually Christ, cell for cell, blood for blood? If not, how do you get past this?

In sencerity,

Michael

CCC#
1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.205

The Eucharist is Christ. In a sense we do BECOME what we eat–we COMMUNE with Christ in the Eucharist. What act is more intimate? It is a marriage in a sense–we become one flesh–it is indeed a mystery and Paul says as much in Eph. 5:32 when discussing marriage and its relationship to Christ and the Church.

God made us both spiritual and physical beings–we are not spiritual creatures alone, like angels, and we are not physical creatures alone, as animals–We are both. This ***–THE EUCHARIST–***is how God deigned to BE in us both spiritually AND physically.

The Eucharist …cleanses us and seperates us from sin…establishes a community of believers…communicates the mystery of the Holy Trinity…gives us a foretaste of future life…helps us grow in Christian charity…increases the graces received at Baptism…is a source of conversion and penance…unites us with Christ, other Christians, and with the Heavanly liturgy…allows us to participate in Christ’s sacrifice…gives meaning to what we do every Sunday…and so much more…The Eucharist IS Christ–how can anyone explain the infinite? HE chose this way to KNOW us in the most Biblical sense–THANK-YOU GOD!

P.S.–to michaelp-- I’m still waiting to discuss this with you within your own hermaneutic on the thread I started for that purpose --Grammatico-Historical discussion of John 6:yup:

 

[teresas1979]

I find one of the most common arguments against the Eucharist to be that the law forbade the drinking of blood and so for Jesus to ask them to drink His own blood would be asking them to break the law (which He would never do). How do those supporters of the Eucharist deal with this apparent conflict of Scripture?