Is Eucharistic Adoration idolatry?

[jimmy]

michaelp:

Lisa, it is a very serious question. I only came up with it after reading this thread. The question still stands. In a very literal sense, we are what we eat. So, if the Eucharist is Christ’s body and blood and soul, do you become Christ when you eat it?

1. When does the eucharist cease to be Christ’s actual body, blood, and soul.
2. If it does not cease to be Christ’s body, blood, and soul, do you become Christ literally? Can a person theoretically eat only the Eucharist and after 7 years be Christ (since 99.9 percent of the bodies cellular structure completely reconstructs itself every 7 years).
3. If not, how can it be literally His body, blood, and soul?

Lisa, I know that you all have thought about this before. It is not a loaded question. I am quite sincere in it.

Michael

Actually this is one question that has never occured to me. But I think you are making it into a too scientific thing. I have never thought of whether you actually become Christ if you eat it.

What I would say is that you become the accidents of the Eucharist. That is all I am going to say right now.

 

[adnauseum]

teresas1979:

I find one of the most common arguments against the Eucharist to be that the law forbade the drinking of blood and so for Jesus to ask them to drink His own blood would be asking them to break the law (which He would never do). How do those supporters of the Eucharist deal with this apparent conflict of Scripture?

I am one of those “supporters of the Eucharist” if by that you mean followers of Christ.

Please, please study the Hebrew Scriptures. The Jews were forbidden to drink blood because it was the source of life. When Christ came, he assured them that He was the way, the truth, and the LIFE.

The prohibition against drinking blood was precisely the opposite of what you think it is: it pointed directly at the one who was to come, whose Blood would be the life of the world.

I urge you, with all my heart, to become a “supporter of the Eucharist.” Your life literally depends on it.

 

[teresas1979]

The prohibition against drinking blood was precisely the opposite of what you think it is: it pointed directly at the one who was to come, whose Blood would be the life of the world.

I agree that Jesus’ Blood would be the life of the world - His Blood washed us of our sins. That does not answer whether we should drink His Blood. (I’m not being deliberately obtuse here, just trying to understand)

 

[st_felicity]

teresas1979:

I agree that Jesus’ Blood would be the life of the world - His Blood washed us of our sins. That does not answer whether we should drink His Blood. (I’m not being deliberately obtuse here, just trying to understand)

This is specifically to address JWs issue w/ the Eucharist…but go down a bit–it explains in detail the early Jewish and early Christian veiws concerning consumption of blood.

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=723

 

[Stephen_T]

Reading these posts has reminded me of an important Scripture passage (The Appearance on the Road to Emmaus) in Luke, Chapter 24, Verses 15-16:

“And it had happened that while they were conversing and debating, Jesus himself drew near and walked with them, but their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him.”

Upon further reading in the same Chapter of Luke, we learn the following:

“And it happened that, while He was with them at table, He took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them. With that their eyes were opened and they recognized Him, but He vanished from their sight.”

Unfortunately, I fear that many of us are in the same situation that Jesus’ disciples were in–they were unable to recognize Jesus when He was standing right with them. We focus so much on debating, etc., that we are unable to recognize the Lord Jesus when He comes in the form of the Eucharist! I pray and ask in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ that our hearts will continue to be opened to His will and that our Faith will continue to be strengthened. Peace be with you all!! God bless you always! Oh, don’t forget to say a prayer for our Pope, John Paul II !

ACT OF FAITH
O my God, I firmly believe that You are one God in three divine Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; I believe that Your Divine Son became man and died for our sins, and that He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe these and all the truths which the Holy Catholic Church teaches, because You revealed them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived.

 

[Darrel]

Angainor:

I know Catholics believe Jesus is really present in the Eucharist.

However, I believe the Lord’s Supper is meant to point to Jesus (do this in rememberance of me). As such, it is my fear that to worship the meal itself represents a subtle distraction from what is really important. It seems to me a deflection of worship away from Jesus, ever-so-slightly, in a way that I think would make Satan very happy. If he cannot break a thing he can try to bend it.

Ok,

Why is it possible to partake of a simple ‘symbol’ that points at Christ unworthily? Protestants also teach that you should not partake unworthily. Why do they not say “this is just a symbol, come to Christ in communion as you are”? The Eucharist is totally valid, protestant churches contradict themselves every time they say it’s a symbol only and then the pastor says do not partake of this symbol unworthily. It’s just another piece of scripture that Protestants sort of don’t talk about much.

-D

 

[Mickey]

When we eat food, it is destroyed. Your spaghetti dinner and ham sandwich are assimiliated and become part of you. When we receive the Eucharist, we are receiving the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The Eucharist is not assimilated. We become part of Our Lord Jesus Christ. We live in Christ. We become Holy. It is important to receive the Eucharist as often as possible.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_3_22.gif

 

[michaelp]

Mickey:

When we eat food, it is destroyed. Your spaghetti dinner and ham sandwich are assimiliated and become part of you. When we receive the Eucharist, we are receiving the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. The Eucharist is not assimilated. We become part of Our Lord Jesus Christ. We live in Christ. We become Holy. It is important to receive the Eucharist as often as possible.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_3_22.gif

1. So, if it is not assimilated it literally ceases to exist??

If you believe that it ceases to exist after eating it, what makes you believe this? Is this just your opinion?

And, if this is true, sorry for being crude, a person would never have any bowel movements of these elements? You could certianly test this.

1. If it does not cease to exist does it turn back into regular wine and bread?

If you believe all this, where do you get your information about it from? Is this just your opinion?

Since there is an official teaching of what literally happens to the elements during consecration, is there anything official concerning what literally happens to the elements after consumption? Don’t tell me it is a mystery and you cannot be literal, because that is what Protestants say about the elements before consecration and they get in trouble by Roman Catholics for this.

The reason why I ask is because like I said before, in reality, if you take it literally that they elements become the body and blood and soul of Christ, you must also take it literally that you actually become Jesus’ body and blood (possibly even soul, depending on if its assimilation to our soul is analogous to that of the body).

Don’t think that I don’t believe that the creator of the world can do miracle much greater than turning some element into another element, that is not my problem.

My problem is in the fact that it does not seem as if you all have carried your literal interpretation far enough to discover the implications of this.

Thanks for the time.

Michael

 

[michaelp]

jimmy:

Actually this is one question that has never occured to me. But I think you are making it into a too scientific thing. I have never thought of whether you actually become Christ if you eat it.

What I would say is that you become the accidents of the Eucharist. That is all I am going to say right now.

Thank Jimmy, but I don’t think that it is I or the Protestants who are turning it into a scientific thing. We are not the ones using the word “Literal” to discribe our belief about the sacraments. You believe that they, from a scientific standpoint, turn into the body, blood, and sould of Christ, DNA for DNA. We don’t.

Michael

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Lisa4Catholics:

Let me ask you This,and reflect on it please(oh,I am glad your not mocking I thought you were having a breakdown)We in Christs Church are said to be part of the body of Christ,can you agree with that?You I believe are asking if we become Christ the diety What in the world:nope: Okay let me try to understand what you are asking.Christ is literally in the Eucharist he is the manna from Heaven,this is the ultimate summit of our Faith.You are getting into scientific mess,I left a link on the Eucharist please read it.You I think are trying to bring a spiritual truth and mystery and wittle it down to a scientific argument.The Eucharistic Miracles have been scientifically proven and studied.But I don’t know if anyone has had blood drawn after the Eucharist Let me ask you a question.Why is it that you can believe that almighty God came down from heaven and became man,he was crucified died and was buried and rose from the dead and ascended to heaven and you have a hard time believing what Jesus said about it being His body and blood you can’t believe it?That amazes me me.He let people walk away,if He was talking symbolically He would have been bound to correct them in theor thinking or it would have been deception.God can not decieve,that is an impossibility.No, Michael I have never thought about the question before, my heart,and the grace of faith confirms it is true,I wish you understood and I pray for your understanding,most of all I pray that before you meet Him in heaven you meet Him in the Eucharist.God Bless and don’t forget the link Oh and give me an update on the Diary of Divine Mercy.

Michael you neglect me again?:crying:

 

[michaelp]

Lisa4Catholics:

Michael you neglect me again?:crying:

Lisa, please forgive me. I did combine a response to your scientific issue above.

Lisa, you say that you have never thought about this in this way, but you have obviously thought about the Eucharist is as being literal . . . therefore, you have thought about it this way. Maybe, you have just not thought about what the implications are to having a consistantly literal approach. Don’t you think that you ought to think through these things before you take a leap of faith???

Let me ask you: Do you believe that the Eucharist ceases to be the body, blood, and soul of Christ after consumptioin?

If not, how can you say that we do not actually literally become Christ, body and blood??

It is an issue of the philosophical and theological ramifications of this that I have a problem with. Not necessarily that God could do it (although I do have some issues with this–that is a different issue )

I pray that you are doing well.

Michael

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

michaelp:

Lisa, please forgive me. I did combine a response to your scientific issue above.

Lisa, you say that you have never thought about this in this way, but you have obviously thought about the Eucharist is as being literal . . . therefore, you have thought about it this way. Maybe, you have just not thought about what the implications are to having a consistantly literal approach. Don’t you think that you ought to think through these things before you take a leap of faith???

Let me ask you: Do you believe that the Eucharist ceases to be the body, blood, and soul of Christ after consumptioin?

If not, how can you say that we do not actually literally become Christ, body and blood??

It is an issue of the philosophical and theological ramifications of this that I have a problem with. Not necessarily that God could do it (although I do have some issues with this–that is a different issue )

I pray that you are doing well.

Michael

No to be honest I didn’t nor do I think it is important to think about the scientific implications or refutals on the real true Presence of Jesus no more than I would question everything else Jesus did.One again I have left a website of information on the early Church and the Eucharist as well as miracles,please read it whether you will ultimately agree or not.I wish you would start a thread on this as well.God Bless and I hope you are doing well too

 

[Church_Militant]

michaelp:

Let me ask you: Do you believe that the Eucharist ceases to be the body, blood, and soul of Christ after consumptioin?

If not, how can you say that we do not actually literally become Christ, body and blood??

It is an issue of the philosophical and theological ramifications of this that I have a problem with. Not necessarily that God could do it (although I do have some issues with this–that is a different issue )

I pray that you are doing well.

Michael

Hi Michael, It’s Michael…LOL
The church teaches that the Eucharist ceases to be once the digestive process kicks in in about 15 minutes…also that if a consecrated host begins to “spoil” it is no longer the Eucharist. There have been some very interesting Eucharistic miracles if you wanna look into them. Pretty impressive…) That is one reason that Catholics spend very special time in worship and prayer after having received the Eucharist.
Does this help at all?
Pax vobiscum,

 

[michaelp]

Church Militant:

Hi Michael, It’s Michael…LOL
The church teaches that the Eucharist ceases to be once the digestive process kicks in in about 15 minutes…also that if a consecrated host begins to “spoil” it is no longer the Eucharist. There have been some very interesting Eucharistic miracles if you wanna look into them. Pretty impressive…) That is one reason that Catholics spend very special time in worship and prayer after having received the Eucharist.
Does this help at all?
Pax vobiscum,

Yes Michael, very much. Thank you. Can you point me to the teaching of the church on this? Does the Catechism speak to this issue? And, is this the official infallible teaching?

And, if it does cease to be the body and blood of Christ, what difference does it make to our spiritual life??? We are arguing over what happens to some bread for 15 min? Why? Ultimately, neither one of us have the body and blood after 15 min, so what is the big deal? If it is just the spiritual element that is ongoing after 15 min, that is what Protestants say about the entire time.

Michael

Michael

 

[Mickey]

1. So, if it is not assimilated it literally ceases to exist??

If you believe that it ceases to exist after eating it, what makes you believe this? Is this just your opinion?

And, if this is true, sorry for being crude, a person would never have any bowel movements of these elements? You could certianly test this.

1. If it does not cease to exist does it turn back into regular wine and bread?

If you believe all this, where do you get your information about it from? Is this just your opinion?

Since there is an official teaching of what literally happens to the elements during consecration, is there anything official concerning what literally happens to the elements after consumption? Don’t tell me it is a mystery and you cannot be literal, because that is what Protestants say about the elements before consecration and they get in trouble by Roman Catholics for this.

The reason why I ask is because like I said before, in reality, if you take it literally that they elements become the body and blood and soul of Christ, you must also take it literally that you actually become Jesus’ body and blood (possibly even soul, depending on if its assimilation to our soul is analogous to that of the body).

Don’t think that I don’t believe that the creator of the world can do miracle much greater than turning some element into another element, that is not my problem.

My problem is in the fact that it does not seem as if you all have carried your literal interpretation far enough to discover the implications of this.

Thanks for the time.

Michael

Michael,

The following was not written by me, but by someone who was inspired by the Holy Spirit who wants to remain anonymous:

Dear Son,

What is ever existing becomes contained in it’s purity–never failing us in His Grace. Our primitive nature is consumed by His Divinity, and for that period of time we are lifted up into Him. This is quite difficult to grasp because we are forever bound by our human nature. Literal concepts can blind the eye of the soul at times, but Faith, Obedience, and willingness to receive these mysterious truths will allow us to welcome Him in His purity when we open our hearts to this like a child.

All that was ever asked was to love Him.
All that was ever asked was to love one another.

Thoughts can carry us away like flies and hardened hearts will separate the body. So be still in your soul. He loves you and wants you near. You must look at this openly.

Peace.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Michael,

The following was not written by me, but by someone who was inspired by the Holy Spirit who wants to remain anonymous:

Dear Son,

What is ever existing becomes contained in it’s purity–never failing us in His Grace. Our primitive nature is consumed by His Divinity, and for that period of time we are lifted up into Him. This is quite difficult to grasp because we are forever bound by our human nature. Literal concepts can blind the eye of the soul at times, but Faith, Obedience, and willingness to receive these mysterious truths will allow us to welcome Him in His purity when we open our hearts to this like a child.

All that was ever asked was to love Him.
All that was ever asked was to love one another.

Thoughts can carry us away like flies and hardened hearts will separate the body. So be still in your soul. He loves you and wants you near. You must look at this openly.

Peace.

Mickey, that is beautiful and I am glad you posted it.God Bless

 

[st_felicity]

michaelp:

Let me ask you: Do you believe that the Eucharist ceases to be the body, blood, and soul of Christ after consumptioin?

If not, how can you say that we do not actually literally become Christ, body and blood??

It is an issue of the philosophical and theological ramifications of this that I have a problem with. Not necessarily that God could do it (although I do have some issues with this–that is a different issue )

Michael–I think this may help…it’s #3 and from usccb.org/dpp/realpresence.htm

When the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, why do they still look and taste like bread and wine?

In the celebration of the Eucharist, the glorified Christ becomes present under the appearances of bread and wine in a way that is unique, a way that is uniquely suited to the Eucharist. In the Church’s traditional theological language, in the act of consecration during the Eucharist the “substance” of the bread and wine is changed by the power of the Holy Spirit into the “substance” of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. At the same time, the “accidents” or appearances of bread and wine remain. “Substance” and “accident” are here used as philosophical terms that have been adapted by great medieval theologians such as St. Thomas Aquinas in their efforts to understand and explain the faith. Such terms are used to convey the fact that what appears to be bread and wine in every way (at the level of “accidents” or physical attributes - that is, what can be seen, touched, tasted, or measured) in fact is now the Body and Blood of Christ (at the level of “substance” or deepest reality). This change at the level of substance from bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is called “transubstantiation.” According to Catholic faith, we can speak of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist because this transubstantiation has occurred (cf. Catechism, no. 1376).

This is a great mystery of our faith—we can only know it from Christ’s teaching given us in the Scriptures and in the Tradition of the Church. Every other change that occurs in the world involves a change in accidents or characteristics. Sometimes the accidents change while the substance remains the same. For example, when a child reaches adulthood, the characteristics of the human person change in many ways, but the adult remains the same person—the same substance. At other times, the substance and the accidents both change. For example, when a person eats an apple, the apple is incorporated into the body of that person—is changed into the body of that person. When this change of substance occurs, however, the accidents or characteristics of the apple do not remain. As the apple is changed into the body of the person, it takes on the accidents or characteristics of the body of that person. Christ’s presence in the Eucharist is unique in that, even though the consecrated bread and wine truly are in substance the Body and Blood of Christ, they have none of the accidents or characteristics of a human body, but only those of bread and wine.

( I emphasized that last part)

 

[Pondero]

Angainor:

I know Catholics believe Jesus is really present in the Eucharist.

However, I believe the Lord’s Supper is meant to point to Jesus (do this in rememberance of me). As such, it is my fear that to worship the meal itself represents a subtle distraction from what is really important. It seems to me a deflection of worship away from Jesus, ever-so-slightly, in a way that I think would make Satan very happy. If he cannot break a thing he can try to bend it.

It is not primarily a meal but a sacrifice, namely at the sacrifice of the Mass daily, said by thousands of priests. The death of Jesus is re-enacted. God is truly present in the Eucharist under the appearances of bread and wine. Many graces ensue from the Mass each day.

The apostles participated in a meal, but in Church, the priest participates and those in the congregation who not being in a state of sin wish to receive holy communion. There is no obligation for a person at mass to receive communion. Therefore, it is not a meal for them.

 

[CreosMary]

The issue of how long is Christ in Eucharist is a bit of an oxymoron. As often we dwell on silly little matters that dry up faith with an obsession with science and details.
We all know that when Christ announced that he is the Body and Blood to be eaten, many followers left him, refusing to believe. The same is true today and for the last 2000 years.
It is with the eyes of faith that we believe, The Eucharist is a mystery and with all the mysteries in the Church, we asked to have faith.
When we recieve Holy Communion, I see it helps to become more ‘Christ-like’ as we feed on him and draw strength and grace in this manner.
Drawing blood, DNA testing and the like are silly deviations from the truth of our Faith in the instructions of Our Lord and his Holy Church.
Have Faith!!!
God bless and Mary protect you always
Br CreosMary

 

[Church_Militant]

michaelp:

Yes Michael, very much. Thank you. Can you point me to the teaching of the church on this? Does the Catechism speak to this issue? And, is this the official infallible teaching?

And, if it does cease to be the body and blood of Christ, what difference does it make to our spiritual life??? We are arguing over what happens to some bread for 15 min? Why? Ultimately, neither one of us have the body and blood after 15 min, so what is the big deal? If it is just the spiritual element that is ongoing after 15 min, that is what Protestants say about the entire time.

Michael

Michael

I promise to check into this, because I know I read it somewhere in a catechism or article. This REALLY is a good question for Fr. Serpa at AAA. I’ll gp ask…
Pax vobiscum,