Is Eucharistic Adoration idolatry?

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61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? 62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 21 63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh 22 is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. 65 And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.” 66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
 
Hi Michaelp,

I’ve posted these questions else where but no one is ever kind enough to answer them. If you’ve already answered them earlier in this thread, could you direct me to the post number. Thanks. Here they are, they are about John 6:

what does it symbolize? I have heard it symbolized belief or faith. But if this were the case,why would desciples have left him after saying this? They already believed and had faith. What was so shocking? If they wrongly took him literally, why would Jesus let them go? Why wouldn’t he correct them and tell them it was symbolic?

Also check out 1 Cor. 10:16 and especially 1 Cor. 11:27-29. How could one approach bread and wine unworthily? Why would you have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord for just eating bread and wine?
 
st_felicity said:
61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? 62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 21 63 It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh 22 is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. 65 And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.” 66 As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

Felicity,

You seem to be getting rather upset with me. Let’s you and I agree to disagree. I appreciate the interaction with you.

Michael
 
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michaelp:
All of life is an interpretive matter. God has created us in His image and expects us to use our minds. Otherwise, grammer, syntax, and logical consistancy are of no value. The reality of truth must be interpreted and understood to some degree before it can be consumed (no pun intended)!

All I was saying is that we should not interpret Webber out of his theological context.
Michael you are beginning to sound like Tlaloc and its scary:eek: Jesus let people walk awayHe knew they were taking Him seriously:nope: If he meant it symbolically then He would have been guilty of decieving them,God can neither decieve nor can He be decieved and I don’t think you went through the website I left here twice:(
 
what does it symbolize? I have heard it symbolized belief or faith. But if this were the case,why would desciples have left him after saying this? They already believed and had faith. What was so shocking? If they wrongly took him literally, why would Jesus let them go? Why wouldn’t he correct them and tell them it was symbolic?
All I can say at this point is that it cannot be literal since the disciples did not begin to eat Christ and since John does not even record the last supper.

Remember, Christ, in context, was not looking ahead necessarily to the last supper, but behind to the manna in the wilderness. He was identifying himself with the manna. If he were speaking literally, the manna and water in the wilderness would have to be
His literal body and blood as well. Exegetically, this would be more plausible, but it is still insufficient since there would be not implications to his present audience. They did not know what He was talking about, and wern’t willing to stick around to find out like the other disciples were.

Check out these parallels:

47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

****51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

As well, same context:
**John 6:29 **29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Belief is mentioned alone.

But this is the most important. Same context:

**John 6:35 **35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

Notice how hunger (eat) is directly parallel to “comes to Me” and thirst (drink) is directly parallel to “believes in Me.”

It seems pretty clear what He is talking about. This is probebly why the disciples did not ask for a bite of his leg.

Belief and eating are equted throughout this passage. This would be reasonable since John does not mention the events of the Lord’s supper, but does mention belief dozens of times. It would be difficult to explain John’s apparent neglect of the Lord’s supper otherwise.
Also check out 1 Cor. 10:16 and especially 1 Cor. 11:27-29. How could one approach bread and wine unworthily? Why would you have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord for just eating bread and wine?
They were neglecting the hungry and vividly portraying themselves as those who trust in and follow Christ through the Lord’s supper. It is the same as the death of Ananias and Saphira who were acting as if they were part of the sincere fellowshiping community, yet lying about there profits. They were in unworthy communioin with the others and died on the spot.

Michael
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Michael you are beginning to sound like Tlaloc and its scary:eek: Jesus let people walk awayHe knew they were taking Him seriously:nope: If he meant it symbolically then He would have been guilty of decieving them,God can neither decieve nor can He be decieved and I don’t think you went through the website I left here twice:(
Lisa, that is unfair to compare me to that person, or any other person. I am honestly dealing with the issues. I love and follow Christ and have devoted my entire life to Him. I have been to that website Lisa. But how do you expect me to believe stories that there is no way for me to varify. I could go to the Bible Code website and see the same sort of miraculous claims. I could go to an Islamic website and see their claims as well. Everyone has their claims. The question is can those claims be verified, and what do the claims mean. Have you checked out the validity of the claims made on this website Lisa, or do you just believe them?

Also, simply because I do not agree with you does not mean that you have to associate me with pagans. Would you have done the same to Augustine who did not agree with your interpretation of John 6?

Michael
 
Felicity,
You seem to be getting rather upset with me. Let’s you and I agree to disagree. I appreciate the interaction with you.
oH Michael…:tsktsk: You are being so transparent…you have tried every method in the book to wiggle out of answering a very simple question and now you are trying to run away from the question by deflecting and dismissing–**YOU are the disciples that turned away and walked with Him no more! ** It is a hard teaching and I know that being a convert myself–but the TRUTH is what sets you free–it ain’t a cliche for nothin’!

If you don’t answer me…the question will come up again and again and again–BECAUSE IT IS TRUTH! Answer Genesis, answer Maria, answer Lisa, Podero, Mickey, etc…Just ANSWER…
"Does this shock you? 62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? "
c’mon Michael…it’s so simple…
 
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st_felicity:
oH Michael…:tsktsk: You are being so transparent…you have tried every method in the book to wiggle out of answering a very simple question and now you are trying to run away from the question by deflecting and dismissing–**YOU are the disciples that turned away and walked with Him no more! **It is a hard teaching and I know that being a convert myself–but the TRUTH is what sets you free–it ain’t a cliche for nothin’!

If you don’t answer me…the question will come up again and again and again–BECAUSE IT IS TRUTH! Answer Genesis, answer Maria, answer Lisa, Podero, Mickey, etc…Just ANSWER…
"Does this shock you? 62 What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? "
c’mon Michael…it’s so simple…
Felicity,

Look at post 165.

Again, I believe you are the one dodging, because of an inability to responds to the objections raised by your interpretation. But, like I said, we may have to disagree. It is nice to discuss this will you though.

Michael
 
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michaelp:
Now I don’t think that you are being sincere. You have yet to deal with the issues concerning John 6 which I have. I have obviously said that it is very implausible for us to take it literally, since the disciples did not start to eat his flesh and since John did not even mention the Eucharist in his Gospel.
Why does it matter if the term Eucharist is mentioned in the Gospels? It is a term devised to indicate a profound mystery of the Church, similar to the term “Trinity”, which is also not found in the Gospels. As with many things within Catholicism, the Eucharist has many names - see the first paragraph of the following site:

newadvent.org/cathen/05572c.htm

Peace
 
**
YOU are the disciples that turned away and walked with Him no more!
That is very unfair. You don’t know me nor my devotion to Christ. You don’t have to identify me with those who don’t follow Christ. I DO believe that he ascended into heaven. My life is totally committed to his work. Ad hom arguments show that you don’t have any other recourse. I did not really think that you would resort to this. But hey . . . it is only typical. I hope that you will someday think better of me.

Michael**
 
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Angainor:
If it is Christ up on the altar in the form of bread and wine, why not call it “Christ”? As in, “Look that is Christ on the altar.”

As it is, you have a different word for it, “the Eucharist”. The two things are not interchangable. The Eucharist is related to Christ, but it would not be fair to say the Eucharist is Christ. If it is something other than compltely Christ, then I cannot say it is worthy of worship.

For Lutherans, the Lord’s Supper is a form of worship. It is a way to worship Jesus. The meal itself is not worshiped.
You have a serious misunderstanding of Catholic thology on this matter. The Eucharist is Christ. When we go up to recieve communion AKA the Eucharist, the priest says… “Body of Christ” and we say “Amen.” No matter what term we are using it is the Body blood,soul and divinity of christ, under the appearance of bread. Euchaistic adoration is not idolotry because we are worshiping the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ.

If a* Lutheran* were to worship, or adore their communion bread, ti would certainly* be* idolotry because they do not consecrate their communion bread and wine, they do not have the ability to do this, they do not have apostolic succession. The Lutheran does not want this because it was one of the theological points, Catholic Teachings which Martin Luther rebelled against. Lutherans believe Christ is present at the meal, but do not believe in transubstantiation, as Catholics do, that the bread and wine we see is not longer bread and wine, but in fact the body blood, soul and divinity of Jesus.

I realize this is difficult to understand if you do not have a good understanding of Catholic doctrine. The argument that Eucharistic adoration is idolatry does not work, take the time to read about Catholic teaching regarding the Eucharist and then form a better argument if you disagree with this sacrament.

Also, before Jesus said "to this in remembrance of me, He said take and eat this is my body which willl be given up to you do this in memory of me. Re-read Scripture regarding the Eucharist and you will see that the followers of Jesus had a hard time understanding it as well and many turned away from him and no longer followed Him. A handfull stayed, Peter, our first pope, said “Where shall we turn, you have the words of eternal life.” Those words are blatantly clear that it is the body and blood of Christ. Why else would St. Paul be so strict, in his letters, about taking Commuinon while in a state of sin…

If you woudl like some Biblical references let me know, I will be happy to give them if you actually want them.
]If it is Christ up on the altar in the form of bread and wine, why not call it “Christ”? As in, “Look that is Christ on the altar.”
We do say Look at Christ on the altar. Haven’t you ever been to a Catholic Mass? The priest also says “This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, happy are those who are called to His supper.”
As it is, you have a different word for it, “the Eucharist”. The two things are not interchangable.
If you look up the Catholic definition and meaning of the Eucharist, you will find that they are interchangable, whether you agree with it or not, it s a fact.

You are arguing from a point of view that is ignorant of Catholic Doctrine. If you understood and disagreed with, Catholic doctrine, then you could present a more educated argument. I dont’ mean this as an insult, it’s not your fault, but I am trying to help you form a better argument by doing good research first. You can find all the information you need on this subject at the Catholic Answers website, where this forum origonated.
Peace!

I hope this helps.
 
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michaelp:
Lisa, that is unfair to compare me to that person, or any other person. I am honestly dealing with the issues. I love and follow Christ and have devoted my entire life to Him. I have been to that website Lisa. But how do you expect me to believe stories that there is no way for me to varify. I could go to the Bible Code website and see the same sort of miraculous claims. I could go to an Islamic website and see their claims as well. Everyone has their claims. The question is can those claims be verified, and what do the claims mean. Have you checked out the validity of the claims made on this website Lisa, or do you just believe them?

Also, simply because I do not agree with you does not mean that you have to associate me with pagans. Would you have done the same to Augustine who did not agree with your interpretation of John 6?

Michael
Michael I am sorry and I didn’t mean to disrespect you,but you have to realise that the arguments that you are trying to use against the Holy Eucharist can be used in the Incarnation,Jesus’ miracles,bringing Lazerus back from the dead and the resurrection,the rationalization was the comparison,not the fact that you love Jesus.Will you go to a Catholic Church go into the chapel and pray,it is a simple request.Belief in God or anything requires a grace,I do not think you will believe any argument offered if you do not have the grace to believe it.I am going to pray for you to recieve that grace,and I apologise again about the Tlaloc comment, I was talking about the rationalization not your faith in Jesus and I still love you to death.People were martyred because of the Eucharist and I have experienced the true presence so I let that get in the way of my manners and once again I shouldn’t have said it,sorry:crying: God Bless You
 
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chemcatholic:
Why does it matter if the term Eucharist is mentioned in the Gospels? It is a term devised to indicate a profound mystery of the Church, similar to the term “Trinity”, which is also not found in the Gospels. As with many things within Catholicism, the Eucharist has many names - see the first paragraph of the following site:

newadvent.org/cathen/05572c.htm

Peace
You misunderstand Chemcatholic. It is not just the term that this not mentioned, John does not record the event at all. This is a very significant problem for those who hold to a literalistic interpretation of John 6. John has the longest record of the night before Christ’s crucifixtion taking four chapters, yet no mention at all of the Lord’s supper that is supposed to be taught just 8 chapters earlier as being essential for eternal life.

This is why it is so implausible exegetically. The only explaination is to believe, as I have demonstrated above, that John is referring to belief, which HE DOES mentions over 100 times, not the Eucharist, which he does not mention AT ALL.

Michael
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Michael I am sorry and I didn’t mean to disrespect you,but you have to realise that the arguments that you are trying to use against the Holy Eucharist can be used in the Incarnation,Jesus’ miracles,bringing Lazerus back from the dead and the resurrection,the rationalization was the comparison,not the fact that you love Jesus.Will you go to a Catholic Church go into the chapel and pray,it is a simple request.Belief in God or anything requires a grace,I do not think you will believe any argument offered if you do not have the grace to believe it.I am going to pray for you to recieve that grace,and I apologise again about the Tlaloc comment, I was talking about the rationalization not your faith in Jesus and I still love you to death.People were martyred because of the Eucharist and I have experienced the true presence so I let that get in the way of my manners and once again I shouldn’t have said it,sorry:crying: God Bless You
You OF ALL PEOPLE . . . most certianly are forgiven!! But just remember, I do believe in all those other things, just not transubstantiation at this point. It is not that I can’t, it is just that I think that it is a leap into the dark, not the light.

Michael
 
Fine…I’m looking at it again…
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michaelp:
Remember, Christ, in context, was not looking ahead necessarily to the last supper, but behind to the manna in the wilderness. He was identifying himself with the manna. If he were speaking literally, the manna and water in the wilderness would have to be
His literal body and blood as well.
EXACTLY. But Jesus is God–He is the Word–with God–IS God–OMNIPOTENT. What is time to the timless? Before, after? What difference does it make–you cannot put GOD in context.
Exegetically, this would be more plausible, but it is still insufficient since there would be not implications to his present audience. They did not know what He was talking about, and wern’t willing to stick around to find out like the other disciples were.
EXACTLY AGAIN! He was telling them the only way their puny human brains could get it.
Check out these parallels:

47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

As well, same context:
**John 6:29 **29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Belief is mentioned alone.

But this is the most important. Same context:

**John 6:35 **35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

Notice how hunger (eat) is directly parallel to “comes to Me” and thirst (drink) is directly parallel to “believes in Me.”
You’re sounding Catholic! COME TO THE BREAD OF LIFE!–BELIEVE IN THE BREAD OF LIFE!
It seems pretty clear what He is talking about. This is probebly why the disciples did not ask for a bite of his leg.
This is like a bad joke–only NOT funny…What is “clear” other than Jesus is the bread of life and one must believe and eat his flesh and drink his blood???
Belief and eating are equted throughout this passage.
EXACTLY!!! BELEIVE & EAT! You’ve GOT it!
 
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st_felicity:
Fine…I’m looking at it again…

EXACTLY. But Jesus is God–He is the Word–with God–IS God–OMNIPOTENT. What is time to the timless? Before, after? What difference does it make–you cannot put GOD in context.

EXACTLY AGAIN! He was telling them the only way their puny human brains could get it.

You’re sounding Catholic! COME TO THE BREAD OF LIFE!–BELIEVE IN THE BREAD OF LIFE!

This is like a bad joke–only NOT funny…What is “clear” other than Jesus is the bread of life and one must believe and eat his flesh and drink his blood???

EXACTLY!!! BELEIVE & EAT! You’ve GOT it!
Well, did not think that it would be that easy to convince you 👍.😉
 
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michaelp:
You OF ALL PEOPLE . . . most certianly are forgiven!! But just remember, I do believe in all those other things, just not transubstantiation at this point. It is not that I can’t, it is just that I think that it is a leap into the dark, not the light.

Michael
Only the darkness you are percieving,once you get the grace to belive Michael the Light of Christ is nothing that you can comprehend with all your study and intelligence, the Eucharist would bring your faith to a level you can’t imagine.It is different than a debate over scripture,He truly remained with us and did not leave us orphans.I can pray that you will recieve the grace and I will ask you to take a few minutes a week to go to a Catholic Church and pray,thats all pray.God Bless
 
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michaelp:
That is very unfair. You don’t know me nor my devotion to Christ. You don’t have to identify me with those who don’t follow Christ. I DO believe that he ascended into heaven. My life is totally committed to his work. Ad hom arguments show that you don’t have any other recourse. I did not really think that you would resort to this. But hey . . . it is only typical. I hope that you will someday think better of me.

Michael
This is not at all what i am doing and i believe you know that that is true–I care about your soul and it clearly says BELIEVE and EAT-- I am lovingly (perhaps assertively) providing fraternal correction. Run away and point fingers if you must. I am doing what the Bible tells us to do–I am doing it out of concern–not to win an argument.
 
michaelp said:
**John 6:35 **35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

Notice how hunger (eat) is directly parallel to “comes to Me” and thirst (drink) is directly parallel to “believes in Me.”

Nonsense. There is a parallel. But you haven’t understood the parallel. Your explanation exposes the fact that you haven’t a clue what a parallel is. Here is how the parallel plays out:
  1. he who comes to Me will not hunger
  2. he who believes in Me will never thirst
The first clause is parallel to the second clause.

Parallels are used in English the same way formulas are used in algebra. There is a constant between two clauses and there is a variable between those same two clauses; these variables in turn render different solutions or results.

’he who’ and 'will not/never’ are the constants.

’comes to Me’ and 'believes in Me’ are the variables.

thus changing the solution or result from 'hunger’ to ‘thirst.’

The inherent meaning of this passage is exposed in its parallel structure. It is the compare/contrast which is set up between hunger and thirst which is emphasized. Your interpretation is not only convoluted, it is impossible given the limitations of the sentence structure. In fact your interpretation is **imposed on ** – rather than **drawn from – ** the passage.
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michaelp:
It seems pretty clear what He is talking about.
If it seems so clear to you then why have you failed to explain it? And as for the **grammatical **part of your historical-grammatical-cultural-literary hermeneutic: where is it?
 
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Lisa4Catholics:
Only the darkness you are percieving,once you get the grace to belive Michael the Light of Christ is nothing that you can comprehend with all your study and intelligence, the Eucharist would bring your faith to a level you can’t imagine.It is different than a debate over scripture,He truly remained with us and did not leave us orphans.I can pray that you will recieve the grace and I will ask you to take a few minutes a week to go to a Catholic Church and pray,thats all pray.God Bless
You know, Lisa, the Mormons say the same thing about the “burning in their bosom.” I will stick with Scripture and God’s hand throughout history. Subjectivism never lead me to a good place.

Michael
 
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