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AnthonyJ
Guest
I read on a website that his feast day is February 11th, but I can’t find anything about that.
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xebec775
Guest
I am pretty sure he is not a canonized Saint in either the Catholic or Orthodox churches…
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jhynds
Guest
He is not in the RC, maybe in the Eastern?
and
orthodoxwiki.org/Evagrius_Ponticus say the following:
" Although never glorified as a saint, Evagrius’ teachings on asceticism, prayer, and the spiritual life had a profound impact upon both Christian East and West."
I have been reading his PRAKTIKOS and letting that sink in before I move on to his other writings.
His use of “naming the demons” of what are now know as the “7 Deadly Sins” is very useful in recognizing and fighting the sins when they afflict us (ok, me
). His spiritual combat methods have been most helpful.
For more info here is a great site ldysinger.com/evagrius/00a_start.htm
(not affiliated, just a fan of the website
)
and
orthodoxwiki.org/Evagrius_Ponticus say the following:
" Although never glorified as a saint, Evagrius’ teachings on asceticism, prayer, and the spiritual life had a profound impact upon both Christian East and West."
I have been reading his PRAKTIKOS and letting that sink in before I move on to his other writings.
His use of “naming the demons” of what are now know as the “7 Deadly Sins” is very useful in recognizing and fighting the sins when they afflict us (ok, me
). His spiritual combat methods have been most helpful.For more info here is a great site ldysinger.com/evagrius/00a_start.htm
(not affiliated, just a fan of the website
)
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AnthonyJ
Guest
The website you posted at the bottom is where he I saw his feast day being February 11th. That started me wondering about his status in the Catholic Church, but a search didn’t come up with anything else.
He is not in the RC, maybe in the Eastern?
and
orthodoxwiki.org/Evagrius_Ponticus say the following:
" Although never glorified as a saint, Evagrius’ teachings on asceticism, prayer, and the spiritual life had a profound impact upon both Christian East and West."
I have been reading his PRAKTIKOS and letting that sink in before I move on to his other writings.
His use of “naming the demons” of what are now know as the “7 Deadly Sins” is very useful in recognizing and fighting the sins when they afflict us (ok, me
For more info here is a great site ldysinger.com/evagrius/00a_start.htm
(not affiliated, just a fan of the website
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Nine_Two
Guest
While his teachings had a major impact on Christianity (some of his writings are in the philokalia), he fell into heresy and never reconciled with the Church.
He is not a saint in the Orthodox Church and I would be surprised if he was in the Catholic Church.
He is not a saint in the Orthodox Church and I would be surprised if he was in the Catholic Church.
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Nine_Two
Guest
Just did a quick check. He was condemned at the fifth ecumenical council. It’s possible Assyrians or Copts recognize him as a saint.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
In Fr. Holweck’s “Dictionary of Saints” 1924, Evagrius Ponticus is listed as a saint, locally venerated in churches in the Middle East although he does no specify which.
Some of his teachings, or teachings ascribed to him, were condemned - he personally was not condemned. That is an important distinction.
In the West, Blessed Joachim of Fiore was an Abbot in Florence who submitted his writings to Rome for review. When he submitted his writings, he told Rome that he accepts, in advance, Rome’s judgment of his orthodoxy.
He then died.
Rome later condemned much in his writings, but because he submitted as he did, he is in the calendar as a Beatus.
There is a debate like this going on with Origen, a number of whose teachings were condemned. Origen himself was venerated locally in Alexandria as a saint.
Other teachers in the East who are referred to as “Blessed” only are venerated locally, but not as “full Saints” because the Church took issue with some of their teachings.
There are entire works by Evagrius Ponticus which were published by the Church under another name given some of the controversy surrounding him.
There can be no doubt that his teachings are an important foundation for Hesychasm.
Alex
Some of his teachings, or teachings ascribed to him, were condemned - he personally was not condemned. That is an important distinction.
In the West, Blessed Joachim of Fiore was an Abbot in Florence who submitted his writings to Rome for review. When he submitted his writings, he told Rome that he accepts, in advance, Rome’s judgment of his orthodoxy.
He then died.
Rome later condemned much in his writings, but because he submitted as he did, he is in the calendar as a Beatus.
There is a debate like this going on with Origen, a number of whose teachings were condemned. Origen himself was venerated locally in Alexandria as a saint.
Other teachers in the East who are referred to as “Blessed” only are venerated locally, but not as “full Saints” because the Church took issue with some of their teachings.
There are entire works by Evagrius Ponticus which were published by the Church under another name given some of the controversy surrounding him.
There can be no doubt that his teachings are an important foundation for Hesychasm.
Alex
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Nine_Two
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My understanding is this is not a distinction in the Orthodox Church. St. Augustine is called “Blessed” but he is a “full” saint.
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Shin
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Sigh. Poor fellow. What a shame.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
He is truly “full” in the sense of liturgical veneration. But the “Blessed” does indicate that the East takes issue with some of the currents in his theological thinking. Blessed Theodoret and Blessed Jerome (of Bethlehem) are other examples.
Some Greeks have also referred to Augustine as “St Augustine the Great.”
Alex
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Alexander_Roman
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Shin
Guest
Evagrius Ponticus.
Reminds me of Origin, Tertullian, etc.
A good beginning, then later…
Reminds me of Origin, Tertullian, etc.
A good beginning, then later…
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
Well, he is venerated locally in the Oriental Orthodox Churches (I understand he is depicted iconographically in the Armenian Orthodox Church).
Although some aspects of his teachings may have been condemned, as occurred with Origen, neither of these two deserve to be classed with the historic “heretics” since they fully submitted to the Church during their lifetimes and it was only later that the Church condemned this or that about their teachings.
Tertullian is a separate case since he formally joined a sect. However, even St Jerome once mused that Tertullian was “driven out” of the Church by the Roman clergy. What that was about is beyond me but it sounds like, even then, Roman bureaucrats didn’t have a good reputation . . .
Alex
Although some aspects of his teachings may have been condemned, as occurred with Origen, neither of these two deserve to be classed with the historic “heretics” since they fully submitted to the Church during their lifetimes and it was only later that the Church condemned this or that about their teachings.
Tertullian is a separate case since he formally joined a sect. However, even St Jerome once mused that Tertullian was “driven out” of the Church by the Roman clergy. What that was about is beyond me but it sounds like, even then, Roman bureaucrats didn’t have a good reputation . . .
Alex
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Alexander_Roman
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With respect to why the Oriental Churches should honour Evagrius Ponticus in a way the West does not - we should recall that Evagrius was condemned beginning with the Fifth Ecumenical Council, a Council at which the Oriental Churches were not present.
Prior to this, Evagrius was well respected. He was ordained by St Gregory Nazianzus who relied heavily on Evagrius’ works at the Second Ecumenical Council.
Also, one might ask to what extent do private opinions/teachings of ancient Christian teachers count as true “heresies.” Origen died in the peace of the Church and it was only later that teachings of his were condemned. If he were alive, given his excellent track record with the Church while he was alive, would he have refused to submit to the Church’s judgement of his works? I don’t believe we can say so.
Evagrius was influenced by Origen, to be sure. But so were others, like St Alexander of Jerusalem. Evagrius’ teaching on prayer influenced several generations of Hesychasts, solitaries and monastics - as far as Armenia and influenced also the Muslim Sufis . . .
The question of the recognition of “Saint Evagrius Ponticus” would have to do with the issue of the withdrawal of anathemas hurled at the teachers and saints of both the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches as discussed during their ecumenical meetings. If those anathemas are lifted, then they would be lifted against Evagrius as an Oriental Orthodox saint as well. He would continue to be honoured locally in those Churches who do venerate him. He could also be included in the calendars of the Orthodox Churches of the East in due time, as has happened with other saints.
Alex
Prior to this, Evagrius was well respected. He was ordained by St Gregory Nazianzus who relied heavily on Evagrius’ works at the Second Ecumenical Council.
Also, one might ask to what extent do private opinions/teachings of ancient Christian teachers count as true “heresies.” Origen died in the peace of the Church and it was only later that teachings of his were condemned. If he were alive, given his excellent track record with the Church while he was alive, would he have refused to submit to the Church’s judgement of his works? I don’t believe we can say so.
Evagrius was influenced by Origen, to be sure. But so were others, like St Alexander of Jerusalem. Evagrius’ teaching on prayer influenced several generations of Hesychasts, solitaries and monastics - as far as Armenia and influenced also the Muslim Sufis . . .
The question of the recognition of “Saint Evagrius Ponticus” would have to do with the issue of the withdrawal of anathemas hurled at the teachers and saints of both the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches as discussed during their ecumenical meetings. If those anathemas are lifted, then they would be lifted against Evagrius as an Oriental Orthodox saint as well. He would continue to be honoured locally in those Churches who do venerate him. He could also be included in the calendars of the Orthodox Churches of the East in due time, as has happened with other saints.
Alex
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Nine_Two
Guest
Sainthood is not a guarantee that everything you said was fully accepted by the Church. There are beliefs of St. Gregory of Nazianzas that most modern Orthodox take issue with, yet he isn’t called “blessed”. I’d like a source on this because it contradicts what I’ve read before. However past reading on the topic has tended to be lay apologetics, so if you have a better source on this that can explain discrepencies such as what I said above I’d like to see it.
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Alexander_Roman
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I used to have several sources when I studied hagiography - wouldn’t know where to look to find them now but have no doubt that the “Blessed” in some cases does indicate what we have talked about.
I was recently in a Ukrainian Catholic church whose icons were written by two Orthodox Christians. The priest was taking me on a tour of the building and told me he wanted to show me their icons of Sts. Augustine and Jerome (of Bethlehem).
When we came to the spot on the wall where the two were depicted, one could clearly see that both were titled “Blessed” - and were the only ones in the Church so described. Of course, I told the crest-fallen pastor that “that is what you get when you have Orthodox iconographers do your church for you!”
If you could provide a source to explain this discrepancy, I would also love to read it!
Alex
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Nine_Two
Guest
I’m home for lunch and I don’t have time at the moment to look, but a quick look for “Blessed in the Orthodox Church” on Google reveals two additional saints on the first page of saints to whom the title is applied, St. Xenia of Moscow (a full saint recognized by the whole church, I remember celebrating her day last year), and the Theotokos.I used to have several sources when I studied hagiography - wouldn’t know where to look to find them now but have no doubt that the “Blessed” in some cases does indicate what we have talked about.
I was recently in a Ukrainian Catholic church whose icons were written by two Orthodox Christians. The priest was taking me on a tour of the building and told me he wanted to show me their icons of Sts. Augustine and Jerome (of Bethlehem).
When we came to the spot on the wall where the two were depicted, one could clearly see that both were titled “Blessed” - and were the only ones in the Church so described. Of course, I told the crest-fallen pastor that “that is what you get when you have Orthodox iconographers do your church for you!”
If you could provide a source to explain this discrepancy, I would also love to read it!
Alex
I’ll see what I can find when I have a bit more time, although it does seem unfair that I asked for the source for you to back up your claim and I’m being sent to find the source to show otherwise.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
I didn’t mean to upset your lunch Friend!
“Blessed” can also refer to a category of Orthodox Saints whose holy lives were hidden and only revealed later by those who knew them.
It is customary in the Russian Church to call Augustine “Blessed” and not “Saint.” And this has to do with how the Orthodox Church views their teachings. Others, like St Gennadios Scholarios, also called Augustine “Blessed.”
You might wish to consult a priest in your area on this - I have spoken to Orthodox priests who have told me the same things about why Augustine is call “Blessed.”
It’s an Orthodox issue, not a Catholic one, so it is better for you to go directly to Orthodox sources on this and not take my “heretical uniate” view on things (I’m graceless as an EC, so what do I know?).
Alex
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Mickey
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Moreover, while some may argue that his [St Augustine’s] notions about “created” Grace are incompatible with Orthodox teachings about our illumination by Uncreated Grace, this does not mean, if such were indeed true, that he did not experience true Glorification, as his lofty spiritual writings clearly affirm.
In his letter, “To Innocent, Prefect of Africa,” Pope Gregory calls St. Augustine “blessed” (see *Epistles, *10.37 *NPNF, *2nd series, Vol. XIII]), and St. Photios refers to him as the “divine Augustine” (“Augoustinon ton hieron”) (see his “Epistle to the Archbishop of Aquileia,” *Patrologia Graeca, *Vol. CII, col. 809D), as does St. Mark in the thirty-fourth of his syllogistic chapters in defense of the Orthodox Faith against the Latins at the Council of Florence (“Syllogistika kephalia pros Latinous” ) .
orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/bless_aug.aspx
In his letter, “To Innocent, Prefect of Africa,” Pope Gregory calls St. Augustine “blessed” (see *Epistles, *10.37 *NPNF, *2nd series, Vol. XIII]), and St. Photios refers to him as the “divine Augustine” (“Augoustinon ton hieron”) (see his “Epistle to the Archbishop of Aquileia,” *Patrologia Graeca, *Vol. CII, col. 809D), as does St. Mark in the thirty-fourth of his syllogistic chapters in defense of the Orthodox Faith against the Latins at the Council of Florence (“Syllogistika kephalia pros Latinous” ) .
orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/bless_aug.aspx
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