Is Evangelization inherently in Conflict?

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No, I am talking about tone and emphasis. I am not saying we should be “preaching at people.” I am talking about whenever God comes up, it should be God’s love that is talked about… essentially, “pelvic morality” should not be emphasized that much. We should talk about it a little, but to a much lesser degree than we are now. What I mean is a Pope Francis Catholicism on the macro-scale… and on the level of each individual we should rarely bring up morality… For example, if my friend who is a Catholic, but does not follow its teachings brings up the Faith… I will say: “just stay in Church.” Or something along those lines of telling him how much God loves him… that is what I mean!
 
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alphonsus1 said:
Prayer buddies/ accountability? Offering to give people rides to daily mass? Other ideas?
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I belong to a small Christian community that meets weekly to prepare for the Sunday readings. We pray, read the scriptures for the upcoming Sunday, and discuss them in terms of what they mean in our lives and how we are called to live them out. It’s intense and definitely not for everyone, but it is an amazing way to build our faith lives. Hearing, for example, how someone was challenged to live up to the Gospel message, how they either succeeded or failed, and thinking about how I might have handled the same situation prepares me to encounter these same things in the future and build my spirit and strength to sacrifice and make an effort. There’s a book we use called Insights that makes the planning for the week very easy.
http://www.insightsbooks.com
 
Professor to grad student, you are surely aware of the copious literature on these topics from both Catholic, Protestant and secular sources. And by copious, I do mean cooooopious indeed. If you want to learn more, I suggest that you avail yourself of the best of these sources, as well as the availability of qualified and informed academics that an academic setting provides. The level of information you seem to require is far beyond the capabilities of an internet forum. (Not knocking this forum).

You need to do some real research.

Good luck!
 
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Read FID prior to the retreat and put it’s suggestions into practice.
 
alphonsus1 said:
Is it worth having a country where 20 percent of the US calls themselves Catholic, but perhaps 5 percent of the US follows its morality?

Or a country where 5 percent of the US call themselves Catholic and all 5 percent follow Catholic morality?
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To live the truth it needs to be preached. I’m definitely in the I’d rather the 5% who claimed to be Catholic followed Catholic morality camp. The difficult issues need to be preached and if it drives the 15% who aren’t following Catholic morality away so much the better.
 
alphonsus1 said:
They will get the same reaction as I got when I saw Muslims praying… I subconsciously thought “look at them shrieking on the quad” … this is the same reactions atheists will get to seeing the Catholic mass… this is where the insults like “Catholics dress up for Halloween” come from.
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Not everyone, including not every unbeliever, regards a ritual as weird or something to mock. Humans are instinctively drawn to ritual and a lot of humans find it interesting, which is why a goodly number of people will actually go as tourists to watch tribes do rituals or just act out old rituals. The only people uncomfortable with someone else’s ritual are uncomfortable with the underlying context so they have to make snarky remarks about it. There are plenty of non-believers who simply don’t believe but aren’t nasty or snarky.

Also, we don’t “keep people in the faith at all costs” just so they can get exposure to rituals, etc. We don’t “keep people in the faith” at all. They CHOOSE to be there, some of them are there for years even while they are sinning. I was, I know a lot of other people who are. It had nothing to do with the church preaching some message of love or some message of sin. I can’t remember a single thing I heard from a preaching standpoint that entire time, it was immaterial to where my head was at. I was going to church, whether it was a few times a year, or once a year, or most weeks out of the month, for my own reasons, whether it was because I felt like I needed to see Jesus or because I had to take my elderly mother or whatever. And I would have called myself a Catholic the whole time. I was baptized Catholic and didn’t renounce my faith or convert to something else, I was Catholic, the end.

You seem to act like the 15 percent of lukewarm or poorly practicing Catholics are somehow being “allowed” to stay in the church because the other Catholics aren’t rising up and shunning them or making them leave. That’s not how it works. If I’m a sinner and I decide I want to go to church anyway and call myself a Catholic, I’ll do it, and you can’t stop me, and all your discussions about how I’m a bad Catholic or not really a Catholic won’t stop me. I won’t care and will just figure you’re a nosy prig.
 
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alphonsus1 said:
Prayer buddies/ accountability? Offering to give people rides to daily mass? Other ideas?
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Accountability, ugh. Sorry, I’m a very solitary bear and I don’t like to share my struggles with groups or partners. Nunyabizness unless you’re the priest in the confessional.

Rides to Mass and fun, faith-based social events like cookouts with maybe a little Bible discussion and prayers sound like a good way to go. That way everybody has fun, everybody learns, and nobody gets put on the spot. “So, Joe, how did YOU live up to the faith this week?”
 
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alphonsus1 said:
I am talking about whenever God comes up, it should be God’s love that is talked about… essentially, “pelvic morality” should not be emphasized that much.
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One thing I think is often missing is talking more about other sins than those connected to sexuality. There are a lot of sins out there, but sometimes it seems to listen to the pulpits that anyone who’s not fornicating is a pure saint! I think sometimes too, preaching too much on sexual sins runs the risk of simply making the congregation feel better about themselves for not committing those particular sins - I may be a liar, greedy, and a gossip, but I have at least been faithful to my husband and didn’t have sex before marriage!
 
DarkLight said:
One thing I think is often missing is talking more about other sins than those connected to sexuality. There are a lot of sins out there
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AMEN…

Just take a look at this forum…so many threads about gay sex, masturbation, and whether having your friend of opposite gender sleep over in a separate bed is causing “scandal”.

It’s my understanding that the worst sin is actually pride. When do we ever hear about pride? The only time we hear about pride on here is when some teenager, usually scrupulous, is feeling like maybe he was committing the sin of pride by being pleased that he got a top grade on his report card. That’s not what the sin of pride is. It’s more like what the Pharisees did, and we see behavior like that daily.
I hear a lot of homilies about the Pharisees because they are in scripture, but rarely does the priest seem to draw a parallel between Pharisees and how some Catholics today act. I’ve heard a homily on it a handful of times. We could use at least a double handful of times.

Or how about homilies on the other 8 commandments apart from 6 and 9?

I’ve heard it said that there are no more sins in the Catholic church except for sexual sins, and often the Church lives up to that stereotype.
 
Okay, first, I do not think you are right on many of your points. True, these are empirical questions that need data and studies to back up and validate. I will need to study this more rigorously to form a strong opinion. Here are some thoughts.
  1. Pew surveys show that while non-belief is the top reason people leave the Faith, close seconds and thirds are “dislike of organized religion” and “outdated rules and rituals.” You point out that we have evolutionary predispositions towards liking rituals. Some people do, others do not. However, the people most likely to like rituals are also the most likely to be in the group we do not have to fear leaving. But of the people leaving the Church, many do not like rituals.
It is not “nasty or snarky” to cite your gut reaction to seeing rituals you have never seen before. I agree most atheists are perfectly “nice,” but the fact remains, many atheists also subjectively feel no need for “rules and rituals.” Feelings are not sins (like my gut reaction to seeing muslim prayer is not necessarily a sin), but they must be thrown off instantly since they can put you into near occasion of sin.
  1. Second point. True, people choose to stay in the Faith on their own accord. However, it is very likely false that on the macro-scale, all approaches to evangelization are equally effective. While in your subjective experience, sermons did not drive you from the Church. This may not be true for others. According to Bishop Robert Barron (while I do disagree with on many things, I still respect him)… he says that disinterest in sermons is a main contributor to why people leave the Church.
While its true that you could choose to go to Church even if someone was “snarky,” it is also true that of the people leaving the Church, they often cite “being hurt” as a primary reason for leaving. People who leave the Faith often cite “no one asked me why I left… or seemed to care when I left” as a primary reason for not coming back! And this is fixable by following up with people and showing them how much we care and miss them! Unfortunately, it is true that there is a portion of the population that would rather follow political affiliation than Church teaching. While you are not in this group, others are, and do indeed leave the Faith for these reasons.
 
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I strongly disagree that independent of not focusing on sexual morality because it is bad for evangelization, that sexual morality is not perhaps (big perhaps) “objectively” the biggest sin that Christians face today. Let me back this up, with the impeccable logic of Saint Alphonsus Ligouri.

St. Alphonsus is a Doctor of the Church. In fact, no other theologian has gotten more affirmation than St. Alphonsus. Pope Gregory XVI even ruled that St. Alphonsus’s Moral Theology could be quietly accepted just by virtue of him having held the opinion.

Is God’s mercy infinite? Yes. But so is his justice! God’s justice is also infinite!
What are some other quotes from St. Alphonsus, so that people do not go away being misled by one out of context quote.

From the Sermons of St. Alphonsus:
“And if it be necessary to abstain from looking at females, it is much more necessary to avoid conversation with them.”

“But the unchaste are guilty of an unceasing torrent of sins, by thoughts, by words, by looks, by complacencies, and by touches; so that, when they go to confession they find it impossible to tell the number of the sins they have committed against purity.”

“Hence St. Thomas says, that there is no sin in which the devil delights so much as in this sin; because there is no other sin to which nature clings with so much tenacity.”

“Hence, as soon as temptation against chastity presents itself, the remedy is, to turn instantly to God for help, and to repeat several times the most holy names of Jesus and Mary, which have a special virtue to banish bad thoughts of that kind.”

" ‘But God is merciful.’ Behold another common delusion by which the devil encourages sinners to persevere in a life of sin! A certain author has said, that more souls have been sent to hell by the mercy of God than by his justice."

MOST IMPORTANT quotes of St. Alphonsus.
“Hence you should tremble, lest, if you commit a single additional mortal sin, God should abandon you, and cast you into hell.”

" ‘Evil doers shall be cut off.’ (Ps. xxxvi. 9.) The wicked shall be cut off by the divine justice. ‘For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap.’ (Gal. vi. 8.) He that sows in sin, shall reap eternal torments. ‘Because I called and you refused, I also will laugh in your destruction and will mock when that shall come to you which you feared.’ (Prov. i. 24, 26.) I called, says the Lord, and you mocked me; but I will mock you at the hour of death. ‘Revenge is mine, and I will repay them in due time.’ "

How does St. Alphonsus end his sermon?
“Dearly beloved Christians, enter into yourselves, and tremble; for this sermon may be the last of Gods mercies to you!”
 
Sophisticated logical argumentation cannot get you out of this, because the position of lust not being the worst sin will fail every time because:
  1. We cannot downgrade lust from a mortal sin to a venial sin with time. If it was grave matter in the past, then it is grave matter now. The advice to not care too much about thoughts is hard to reconcile with those same thoughts being mortal sins and a single mortal sin being capable of sending you to hell.
  2. It is 100 percent Truth that so many thoughts go through our brains every day, that its not enough to say any one specific thought did not have culpability. This is because even if you were only fully culpable of a very small percentage of your lustful thoughts, the sheer number of them means you could still very well be culpable of hundreds of mortal sins every month (or even week)! So many that you cannot count how many sins you committed!
  3. Lustful thoughts have a spectrum of consent and knowledge. And in fact most of the time you are not entirely devoid of any consent whatsoever. You claim it is not sufficient consent? Stop playing God! You do not know how God will judge, there is uncertainty. And like I said above, it is precisely this uncertainty that should make you tremble. Do not leave your salvation to a “perhaps.”
The remedy?
As soon as a temptation against chastity presents itself, turn instantly to God and implore his assistance. Do not argue with the temptation, but immediately throw it off. And that means immediately. Not two seconds later, not 10 seconds later, immediately. Cry out and beg his assistance: “I need you God RIGHT NOW! I need you God RIGHT NOW! Please. Please. Please.” Cry out the name of our Blessed Lord (or Mary) and tell him how much you need him then and there.

Constant vigilance! It is true, paradoxically, that thinking about resisting temptation can put more temptations into your brain. However, 5 thoughts with no vigilance is 5 thoughts with some consent, and potentially 5 culpable mortal sins. If resisting meant more thoughts may come into your brain, say 20 thoughts now that you’re resisting, constant vigilance will still win because it means throwing off every one of those thoughts immediately. It implies absolutely no consent and no sins committed for any of those 20 thoughts! Also, you can develop a habit of resisting sin such that it becomes second nature and is just what you do immediately. The solution is to strive to get to this point, where it does not take as much effort and there is not an increase in temptations, and yet your vigilance has not decreased whatsoever!

You must have constant custody of your eyes whenever you are around attractive females. You must learn to look away whenever you see yoga pants. If a movie, yoga pants, the beach, billboards, etc cause you to sin, then identify the trigger and flee from it. While you cannot eliminate temptations entirely, and while the the advice to not even look at women is too far in that it conflicts with Christian charity to love our neighbor and bring Christ’s presence to society, one can/should still flee!!! Still sprint away from near occasions of sin! Avoid lust! Flee, Flee, Flee!
 
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alphonsus1 said:
From the Sermons of St. Alphonsus:
“And if it be necessary to abstain from looking at females, it is much more necessary to avoid conversation with them.”
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I can’t imagine that if I went to church and the men wouldn’t even talk to me, that I’d be back - or many other women would. So perhaps we ought to think this bit over.
 
I think what St Alphonsus was addressing men who have a problem with lust, not all men.

Even though we sometimes think that all men struggle with lust, probably few of them have such a great problem that they need to stop talking with women altogether.
 
alphonsus1 said:
One last question. I am helping plan a grad student retreat. What would be the best way that would draw people into the Faith… after the retreat has ended… that is, keep people engaged not just for the retreat… but for after the retreat.

Prayer buddies/ accountability? Offering to give people rides to daily mass? Other ideas?
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Why not ask the participants? Or offer a variety of options?
 
DarkLight said:
One thing I think is often missing is talking more about other sins than those connected to sexuality. There are a lot of sins out there, but sometimes it seems to listen to the pulpits that anyone who’s not fornicating is a pure saint!
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First: Wow! You hear homilies about sin!

Second, in our Western society, most other sins are still frowned upon. No one argues that stealing is ok, or that we should get rid or laws against assault.

But sex? In our society it seems like it is the sine qua non of human endeavor…
 
It is true circumstances have changed (I noted that in my above post). We have to bring Christian charity to a world that is largely devoid of Christ, so we cannot completely abstain from looking at young females. However, St. Alphonsus believes it is nature that clings to this sin, so almost all males between the ages of 15-40, until their libido decreases, will have to fight this sin because of how they are hardwired, that is, nature. St. Alphonsus quotes St. Thomas as saying:

“Hence St. Thomas says, that there is no sin in which the devil delights so much as in this sin; because there is no other sin to which nature clings with so much tenacity.”

St. Alphonsus says the devil delights in this sin while you are in your sleep, so when you wake up, you will have to fight. St. Alphonsus is clearly talking about everyone, not just people with a “lust” problem.
 
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Good advice. I didn’t think of that. Thank you a lot!!! I am not a good planner, so two other grad students who are better at the details are working with me. But I am helping research Saints because the topic of our retreat is prayer. So I am going to give a list of Doctors of the Church, and everyone can pick a Saint from my list of Doctors of the Church (or some other Saint if they so choose). Do you have any thoughts on Saints I could pick from? But your idea of asking the participants/ polling them, could be something I look into. Thanks!!!
 
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Immoral sexual activity is the most heavily promoted, but it’s taken decades for Christians to go from ‘that’s wrong’ to ‘it’s none of my business’ and other justifications. Decades of wrong ‘teaching’ through movies and TV plus knowing a person or two who decided to give it a try. God forbid that anyone should say anything negative about that or you’ll hear cries of censorship or prude.

Slavery to the flesh like masturbation, actual sex outside of marriage and porn addiction are at epidemic levels. As well as STDs.

I encourage anyone reading, these things will not help you. God will help you.
 
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Annie said:
Second, in our Western society, most other sins are still frowned upon. No one argues that stealing is ok, or that we should get rid or laws against assault.

But sex? In our society it seems like it is the sine qua non of human endeavor…
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Maybe. But we’re talking about evangelism. And hearing sexual sin singled out is not going to be good for evangelization, because it gives people the idea they’re some special category of horrible sinner, and who wants to be that? There are plenty of people who gossip, or covet, or cheat, or lie, and justify to themselves that it’s ok.

It’s also easier in my experience to convince people they need God by talking about sins they already accept as sins, than by talking about ones they may not. The truth of the gospel is that we are all sinners, not that there are some sinners out there that us holy people need to go save.
 
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