Is everyone who is baptized technically catholic?

[Bookcat]

Catholic Catechism

Catechism:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#811

I know many have read this - but there may be those (not commenting here) who have not. Take the time to read. 811 through 822

Catechism:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

(that is just part of what is in the above link)

 

[steve_b]

*I suggest you re-read Ut Unum Sint. *

The purpose of ecumenism is for unity in diversity to again be found. The purpose of ecumenism is the restoration among all the disciples of the Lord of koinonia. The purpose is that we are actually ALL converted. That we ALL confess the sins and failures of the past.

The Pope in paragraph 2:
*I thank the Lord that he has led us to make progress along the path of unity and communion between Christians, a path difficult but so full of joy. Interconfessional dialogues at the theological level have produced positive and tangible results: this encourages us to move forward.

Nevertheless, besides the doctrinal differences needing to be resolved, Christians cannot underestimate the burden of long-standing misgivings inherited from the past, and of mutual misunderstandings and prejudices*. Complacency, indifference and insufficient knowledge of one another often make this situation worse. Consequently, the commitment to ecumenism must be based upon the conversion of hearts and upon prayer, which will also lead to the necessary purification of past memories. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord’s disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people’s minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation.
The last bolded statement is actually one of the most important that has marked my time in this field. Catholics will be required to abandon the conclusions of historians and commentators of the past and to see the events of the past through the lenses provided by new methodologies. This is what Rome is doing and has been doing now over the past 30 years. It is also how we can end up with what is happening today…thanks be to God!..with ceremonies co-presided by Catholic clergy and Lutheran clergy.

The Church of the future will look radically different from what we see today, as the Body of Christ comes to be healed of the divisions which have rent it. We will see a Church much more like the ancient Church of the first millennium.

The goal of ecumenism is that there is a coming together of the disciples of the Lord in koinonia.

We rejoice, for example, that writings and compositions of Thomas Cranmer are now part of a liturgy of the Roman Rite. This was unimaginable when I began my work in this field but I have seen it realised as Rome has re-assessed the past. altered its thoughts on how to proceed, and come to very different conclusions than generations that are past and dead.

Today, the Anglicans bring with them into full communion the incredible patrimony that is theirs – including the gifts they have to give from the era of the Reformation and beyond – in terms of theology, in terms of liturgy, and so forth.

The commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation will be the occasion for some quite remarkable texts and events from the Holy Father regarding Martin Luther, regarding Catholic-Lutheran relations and regarding other aspects of the Reformation beyond Luther.

Did you read #110

your thoughts?

 

[steve_b]

That’s not reconciliation. That’s simply treating each other with Christian love, which is not a bad thing at all. Reconciliation brings us to the same altar, sharing the chalice together, as Pope Benedict said. It brings us together in declaring the same doctrine. That’s true reconciliation.

Jon

The text of this post (in black) was from Pope Benedict XVI (2012)
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=10104

(all emphasis mine)

"the task of **evangelization **and overcoming the existing divisions between Christians. “Such division”, one reads at the beginning of the Decree Unitatis Redintegratio, “openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages that most holy cause, the preaching of the Gospel to every creature” (n. 1). "

My comments

Once someone knows , the key is one’s knowledge, that they are in one of those divisions away from Our Lord’s Church, (the Catholic Church) , even though they personally didn’t have their fingerprints on the division personally, but now they know their situation they now have to make a change in direction for themselves. They can’t ignore that. If they don’t correct that, THEN their fingerprints are on their division and the consequences are huge,. I’m paraphrasing the CCC ,[846 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 846)

“The affirmation of the conciliar Decree reechoes the “priestly prayer” of **Jesus when, addressing the Father, he asks that his disciples “may all be one… so that the world may believe” (Jn 17:21). Four times in this important prayer he invokes unity for the disciples of that time and for those of the future and twice he points out that the purpose of this unity is that the world may believe, that it may “recognize” him as the One sent by the Father. **There is consequently a close link between the destiny of evangelization and the Christians’ witness to unity.”

My comments

**
**John 17:20-23is not a suggestion Jesus makes. It’s a command with no expiration date to it. Division from Our Lord’s Church, that He died for and gave all His promises to, carries a huge consequence for the soul, who divides from His Church and dies in that sin. The NT scriptures warn, it’s a damnable offense. 817

"We must not, however, forget that **the goal of ecumenism is the visible unity among divided Christians.
**
My comments

Visible unity here is complete union with the pope and all those in union with him**. **That is what Jesus meant by
**
John 17:20-23

for proof of that statement, here is a condition from Benedict that makes the point, and in extension, makes this point visible to the world

“**this goal is a positive reality on condition, however, that the **Churches and Ecclesial Communities do not stop along the way, accepting the contradictory differences as something normal or as the best that can be obtained. Instead it is in full communion in faith, in the sacraments and in the ministry, that will become concretely evident the present and active power of God in the world.”
**
My comments

there is to be

• No contradictory differences
• full communion in faith
• full communion in sacraments
• full communion in ministry

THAT then is evidence of the present and active power of God in the world.
said differently, all these divisions are no longer individual wills exercised against the will of God but are now living in the will of God… by becoming ONE in the

One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I didn’t ask you to justify whether you can point out this fine line on this forum. I asked who on this thread has promoted syncretism. Your failure to answer that is telling.

Strawman

Well, then apparently the Catholic Catechism fails to grasp the distinction, as it too is clear about we all share the blame.

ditto

I couldn’t agree more, and would add to your list institutional membership.
Jon

Well, that’s something…

 

[JonNC]

Strawman

Nonsense

ditto
Ditto

Well, that’s something…
Thanks.

 

[Bookcat]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13939479&postcount=141

 

[JonNC]

=steve b;13940641]The text of this post (in black) was from Pope Benedict XVI (2012)

(all emphasis mine)

Before I start, I want you to know that I sincerely appreciate the obvious effort and thought that you put into this post.

"the task of **evangelization **

and **overcoming the existing divisions **between Christians. “Such division”, one reads at the beginning of the Decree Unitatis Redintegratio, “openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages that most holy cause, the preaching of the Gospel to every creature” (n. 1). "

Amen

My comments

Once someone knows , the key is one’s knowledge, that they are in one of those divisions away from Our Lord’s Church, (the Catholic Church) , even though they personally didn’t have their fingerprints on the division personally, but now they know their situation they now have to make a change in direction for themselves. They can’t ignore that. If they don’t correct that, THEN their fingerprints are on their division and the consequences are huge,. I’m paraphrasing the CCC ,846

I would agree that knowledge of the division between us makes that division ours, as well as those involved on both sides in the Reformation era division. Where I would disagree is your language that implies that the division is one way. I would also disagree with the phrase that states in parenthesis that the One Lord’s Church is the Catholic Church - not that the Catholic Church is not the One Lord’s Church, but the implication that it is only and exclusively the One Lord’s Church. I have never been in communion with the Bishop or Rome, but I am equally in the One Lord’s Church.

"The affirmation of the conciliar Decree reechoes the “priestly prayer” of **Jesus when, addressing the Father, he asks that his disciples “may all be one… so that the world may believe” (Jn 17:21). Four times in this important prayer he invokes unity for the disciples of that time and for those of the future and twice he points out that the purpose of this unity is that the world may believe, that it may “recognize” him as the One sent by the Father. **

There is consequently a close link between the destiny of evangelization and the Christians’ witness to unity."

Again, Amen. Clearly our abilities as members of His Church to evangelize the Gospel, as called for in the Great Commission, is damaged by our divisions. It provides an excuse for the world to scoff at our message, an excuse the evil one makes use of.

My comments

**
**John 17:20-23is not a suggestion Jesus makes. It’s a command with no expiration date to it. Division from Our Lord’s Church, that He died for and gave all His promises to, carries a huge consequence for the soul, who divides from His Church and dies in that sin. The NT scriptures warn, it’s a damnable offense. 817

Amen. As I said above, we in our division as members of His Church makes it easier for the evil one to work against us in our attempts to evangelize, and bring people into His Church.

"We must not, however, forget that the goal of ecumenism is the visible unity among divided Christians

.

That visible unity is far more than the “Kumbaya” description you gave in an earlier post. While recognizing with love and charity the work of the Holy Spirit within each other, and working together on common causes (abortion prevention and traditional marriage, as examples) is a great thing, it is far short of the visible unity called for by Christ, and reiterated by Pope Benedict.

My comments

Visible

unity here is complete union with the pope and all those in union with him**. **That is what Jesus meant by
**
John 17:20-23

**for proof of that statement, here is a condition from Benedict that makes the point, and in extension, makes this point visible to the world

Well, of course full unity would include the Pope. It wouldn’t be full unity if he were not involved. Just like it isn’t full unity if the other patriarchates are not involved. When Jesus says that they may all be one, He meant all.
I might add that I see the pope as having an indispensable role in ecumenism and our work toward unity.

this goal is a positive reality on condition, however, that the Churches and Ecclesial Communities do not stop along the way, accepting the contradictory differences as something normal or as the best that can be obtained. Instead it is in full communion in faith, in the sacraments and in the ministry, that will become concretely evident the present and active power of God in the world."

Oh, Amen to this as well!! All of us, Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Orthodox, all of us cannot view our current divisions within His One True Church as acceptable.

continued

 

[JonNC]

my comments

there is to be

• no contradictory differences
• full communion in faith
• full communion in sacraments
• full communion in ministry

that then is evidence of the present and active power of god in the world.
Said differently, all these divisions are no longer individual wills exercised against the will of god but are now living in the will of god… By becoming one in the

one holy catholic apostolic church

Couldn’t agree more. I think your post hits the essence of ecumenism, the goal that all of His One True Church, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, be visibly one.

Jon

 

[Bookcat]

815 What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:

• profession of one faith received from the Apostles;

-common celebration of divine worship, especially of the sacraments;

• apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God’s family.266

816 "The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#811 for the fuller text

 

[Bookcat]

The Church is visibly one. It cannot cease to be so.

The goal is that all Christians be one …be in communion…that divisions among them be healed…

 

[Bookcat]

the goal that all of His One True Church, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, be visibly one.

The Church is and remains visibly one.

 

[JonNC]

The Church is and remains visibly one.

I think from the perspective of Catholics, that’s true.

Jon

 

[Bookcat]

I think from the perspective of Catholics, that’s true.

Jon

From the perspective of Christ…from the perspective of reality

 

[JonNC]

From the perspective of Christ…from the perspective of reality

Well, sure, there is visibly only one True Church. It’s human sin that has it divided up. It is still only one True Church, hence the Augsburg Confession:

Article VII: Of the Church.

1] Also they teach that one holy Church is to continue forever. The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered.

2] And to the true unity of the Church it is enough to agree concerning the doctrine of the Gospel and 3] the administration of the Sacraments. Nor is it necessary that human traditions, that is, rites or ceremonies, instituted by men, should be everywhere alike. 4] As Paul says: One faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all, etc. Eph. 4:5-6.

Jon

 

[Bookcat]

Well, sure, there is visibly only one True Church. It’s human sin that has it divided up. It is still only one True Church, hence the Augsburg Confession:

Jon

To the first part: no it was not “divided up” -the Church remains One. But yes sadly at the time some Christians separated themselves from the Church.

As to the second: yes I understand that is your profession.

 

[JonNC]

To the first part: no it was not “divided up” -the Church remains One. But yes sadly at the time some Christians separated themselves from the Church.

As to the second: yes I understand that is your profession.

Perhaps where you and I might agree is in the fact that the message of the Gospel, are attempts to spread that message are hindered by our division, and we must do all we can to reclaim that missing unity.

Jon

 

[Bookcat]

Perhaps where you and I might agree is in the fact that the message of the Gospel, are attempts to spread that message are hindered by our division, and we must do all we can to reclaim that missing unity.

Jon

Yes - the division among Christians yes can be at times an impediment in evangelizing the world.

 

[steve_b]

Where I would disagree is your language that implies that the division is one way.

*Jon,

I’m combining 2 of your posts in this answer.

Please take what I’m going to say in this post in the combined spirit of what Benedict XVI said that we need to have, **"Frank Dialogue" AND what Fr Ryland said here **#[110 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13938261&postcount=110)*, AND what Fr Stravinskas said as follows, along with some commentary on my part…

Excerpt from Fr Peter Stravinskas Will the Real Vatican II Please Stand Up?
*
Unitatis Redintegratio***—Decree on Ecumenism**
“We saw earlier that the bishops at Vatican II, in their Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, did not hesitate to give “the whole truth and nothing but the truth” about who the Church is and how she sees herself. An equally forceful declaration finds its way into their Decree on Ecumenism:
“For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is ‘the all-embracing means of salvation,’ that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God” (UR 3).
Still, some would-be ecumenists encourage us to “just be nice.” In other words, don’t deal with any substantive issues, especially those that are theologically divisive. While the Council urged Catholics to present Catholic doctrine so that it is comprehensible to non-Catholics and in as palatable a manner as possible, it stressed that “it is, of course, essential that the doctrine should be clearly presented in its entirety” (emphasis mine). Then comes this outright condemnation of a less-than-forthright approach to ecumenical dialogue: “Nothing is so foreign to the spirit of ecumenism as a false irenicism in which the purity of Catholic doctrine suffers loss and its genuine and certain meaning is clouded” (11).”

IOW

All division from the Catholic Church, the One True Church, need to return home to the Catholic Church.

Having used the example of the prodigal son many times, while the one son was away, what did the Father say of that son? This son of mine was Lost he was DEAD!

NOT until the son returned home did the father say, this son of mine has been found, he is alive. NOT before this.

**Whether one uses “son” or “separated brother” **to explain this son, the consequence for him was dire until he returned home

Luke 15:24 , Luke 15:32
J:

I would also disagree with the phrase that states in parenthesis that the One Lord’s Church is the Catholic Church - not that the Catholic Church is not the One Lord’s Church, but the implication that it is only and exclusively the One Lord’s Church.

evidence for the Catholic Church is crystal clear #34
J:

I have never been in communion with the Bishop or Rome, but I am equally in the One Lord’s Church.

that’s a contradiction

being Outside the Church ≠ being Inside .
J:

Clearly our abilities as members of His Church to evangelize the Gospel, as called for in the Great Commission, is damaged by our divisions. It provides an excuse for the world to scoff at our message, an excuse the evil one makes use of.

Jon

Again being “frank”

Your division, means you are not “in” His Church.
"J:

Amen. As I said above, we in our division as members of His Church makes it easier for the evil one to work against us in our attempts to evangelize, and bring people into His Church.

Re: “we” and “our”, as if we both are His Church, is not correct. Only one (the Catholic Church) is His Church.

Even if all the divisions NEVER reconcile with the Catholic Church and instead remain away, the Catholic Church, will always be Our Lord’s One True Church.
J:

That visible unity is far more than the “Kumbaya” description you gave in an earlier post. While recognizing with love and charity the work of the Holy Spirit within each other, and working together on common causes (abortion prevention and traditional marriage, as examples) is a great thing, it is far short of the visible unity called for by Christ, and reiterated by Pope Benedict.

agreed

Couldn’t agree more. I think your post hits the essence of ecumenism, the goal that all of His One True Church, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, be visibly one.

To make sure we really agree,

visibly one means

• No contradictory differences
• full communion in faith
• full communion in sacraments
• full communion in ministry

Meaning EVERYONE is FULLY incorporated into the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Jon

Again being “frank”

Your division, means you are not “in” His Church.

Re: “we” and “our”, as if we both* are His Church, is not correct. Only one (the Catholic Church) is His Church.

Even if all the divisions NEVER reconcile with the Catholic Church and instead remain away, the Catholic Church, will always be Our Lord’s One True Church.

agreed

To make sure we really agree,

visibly one means

• No contradictory differences
• full communion in faith
• full communion in sacraments
• full communion in ministry

Meaning EVERYONE is FULLY incorporated into the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

Pope Saint John Paul II, Ut Unum Sint

13. The same Document carefully draws out the doctrinal implications of this situation. Speaking of the members of these Communities, it declares: "All those justified by faith through Baptism are incorporated into Christ. They therefore have a right to be honoured by the title of Christian, and are properly regarded as brothers and sisters in the Lord by the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church".

With reference to the many positive elements present in the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities, the Decree adds: "All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to him, belong by right to the one Church of Christ. The separated brethren also carry out many of the sacred actions of the Christian religion. Undoubtedly, in many ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community, these actions can truly engender a life of grace, and can be rightly described as capable of providing access to the community of salvation".

These are extremely important texts for ecumenism. It is not that beyond the boundaries of the Catholic community there is an ecclesial vacuum. Many elements of great value (eximia), which in the Catholic Church are part of the fullness of the means of salvation and of the gifts of grace which make up the Church, are also found in the other Christian Communities.

They are anything but dead. They are alive. And IN Christ. It is these actions THEMSELVES that provide access to “the community of salvation” which is the theological term employed here for Heaven.

Of course, what he is writing would assuredly include Jon and the Lutherans.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Pope Saint John Paul II, Ut Unum Sint

13. The same Document carefully draws out the doctrinal implications of this situation. Speaking of the members of these Communities, it declares: "All those justified by faith through Baptism are incorporated into Christ. They therefore have a right to be honoured by the title of Christian, and are properly regarded as brothers and sisters in the Lord by the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church".

With reference to the many positive elements present in the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities, the Decree adds: "All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to him, belong by right to the one Church of Christ. The separated brethren also carry out many of the sacred actions of the Christian religion. Undoubtedly, in many ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community, these actions can truly engender a life of grace, and can be rightly described as capable of providing access to the community of salvation".

These are extremely important texts for ecumenism. It is not that beyond the boundaries of the Catholic community there is an ecclesial vacuum. Many elements of great value (eximia), which in the Catholic Church are part of the fullness of the means of salvation and of the gifts of grace which make up the Church, are also found in the other Christian Communities.

They are anything but dead. They are alive. And IN Christ. It is these actions THEMSELVES that provide access to “the community of salvation” which is the theological term employed here for Heaven.

Of course, what he is writing would assuredly include Jon and the Lutherans.

Including individuals is strictly a private judgement call. But the Lutherans as an ecclesial community yes.

Individuals are led by the Spirit of Truth when they are included however. But again, that is not a call internet posters can make, unless you are their personal confessor of course.