Is evolution a fact?

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Why quote Ratzinger at me? As far as I know he has no special expertise either in science or the philosophy of science.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Because he is correct. Emperical science only provides raw data. Humans must draw the conclusions. The conclusions must be performed through right reasoning.

Scientism is self limiting and I am surprised you would accept it.
 
Because he is correct. Emperical science only provides raw data. Humans must draw the conclusions. The conclusions must be performed through right reasoning.

Scientism is self limiting and I am surprised you would accept it.
To state that science excludes supernatural explanations and that scientists need not be believers in a personal God to be good scientists is not scientism but fact. You seem to be saying that only believers can produce good theories from their observations - perhaps what you mean is that only believers, some believers, develop hypotheses that you like.

As for right reasoning, are you suggesting that the Church has a monopoly on good reasoning? That would be a truly absurd proposition, given the recent Church Commission on the existence of Limbo - what more futile occupation can anyone find for grown men than to spend years considering and pronouncing on something which is entirely beyond any reasonable basis of knowledge.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
To state that science excludes supernatural explanations and that scientists need not be believers in a personal God to be good scientists is not scientism but fact. You seem to be saying that only believers can produce good theories from their observations - perhaps what you mean is that only believers, some believers, develop hypotheses that you like.

As for right reasoning, are you suggesting that the Church has a monopoly on good reasoning? That would be a truly absurd proposition, given the recent Church Commission on the existence of Limbo - what more futile occupation can anyone find for grown men than to spend years considering and pronouncing on something which is entirely beyond any reasonable basis of knowledge.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
The Church did not have an official position on Limbo. It was considered by theologians. However, the Church did reason this out and correctly so.

Science by its own definition is limited. You seem to be content to stay in its confines. That is surprising to me considering your desire to learn.
 
The Church did not have an official position on Limbo. It was considered by theologians. However, the Church did reason this out and correctly so.

Science by its own definition is limited. You seem to be content to stay in its confines. That is surprising to me considering your desire to learn.
With regard to Limbo, my point is that it is not a subject that is amenable to reason.

I am content to stay within the confines of science for determining how the universe works - all other putative means of gathering knowledge about natural phenomena are futile. Which is not to say that gathering knowledge about the universe’s workings is the only concern that I have - there are many more, love, friendship, music, art, literature, motorbikes, photography, and I use approaches other than natural science to think and learn about them.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Well, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy seems to be labouring under that misunderstanding as is every other source that I have consulted.

Alec
Yes.

(Chesterton’s book on Aquinas does explain the distinction well.)
 
With regard to Limbo, my point is that it is not a subject that is amenable to reason.

I
As with many theological topics (like the nature of Heaven, for example), it seems to be the other way around: it is not amenable to empirical observation, and so is ONLY amenable to reason. (Insofar as it can be known at all, of course.)
 
With regard to Limbo, my point is that it is not a subject that is amenable to reason.

I am content to stay within the confines of science for determining how the universe works - all other putative means of gathering knowledge about natural phenomena are futile. Which is not to say that gathering knowledge about the universe’s workings is the only concern that I have - there are many more, love, friendship, music, art, literature, motorbikes, photography, and I use approaches other than natural science to think and learn about them.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Great. You can find God in love, art, as well as nature.

So you are not totally limited. Since you are open you can find God.

Faith is opening the mind and heart to God. Continue to listen.
 
You, of course can believe whatever you like, including the existence of pink unicorns, if that takes your fancy.

However the fact is that both Behe and the concept of irreducible complexity have been utterly discredited.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Has presenting the truth ever ended one of these arguments? lol…not likely…Willfull disregard for the truth. I’m ready for the next round …I haven’t had the abiogenesis argument is while.
 
As with many theological topics (like the nature of Heaven, for example), it seems to be the other way around: it is not amenable to empirical observation, and so is ONLY amenable to reason. (Insofar as it can be known at all, of course.)
Well, it certainly isn’t amenable to empirical observation - we agree on that.

If you are proposing that therefore it is amenable to reason, I have to disagee. Mathematics is amenable to reason, because given certain simple easily acceptable axioms, you can build the whole edifice. It seems to me that Limbo does not fall into that category - belief in its existence is entirely arbitrary - what possible rational basis can anyone have for believing or not believing in it? In other words, it cannot be known, so the spectacle of senior people in the Church contributing to a commission and pronouncing on its (non)-existence is an exercise in profound futility.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Great. You can find God in love, art, as well as nature.

So you are not totally limited. Since you are open you can find God.

Faith is opening the mind and heart to God. Continue to listen.
Thank you for your concern, and grudging acceptance that I am not “totally limited” which is hugely charitable, but I am an MBTI “thinker” so appeals to emotion don’t cut much ice with me.

Faith is believing things without evidence - faith is a deliberate suppression of our critical faculties - faith is the acceptance of unwarranted beliefs. It’s time we gave it up and stopped treating it as a virtue.

We were talking about the fact that science is the only reliable way to discover knowledge about the natural world, that it needs no belief in supernatural phenomena or gods of any kind to do its job, and that therefore it is, as I claimed, sufficient unto itself.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
You, of course can believe whatever you like, including the existence of pink unicorns, if that takes your fancy.

However the fact is that both Behe and the concept of irreducible complexity have been utterly discredited.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Hi Alec

I haven’t replied to you in a while. I hope you are well. From an engineering perspective and I know you probably have more experience and knowledge in that area than I do, you have to admit that the concept of irreducible complexity is used all the time, especially in the area of software design.

It’s interesting how software design has evolved in some areas of the field where you worry more about simplicity and maintainability then performance. Fast hardware is a beautiful thing. But depending upon your application performance may also be a necessity. I enjoy seeing aspects of my work applied to real life debates like the on going debate over the validity of evolution theory.

Sometimes I get too harsh with this subject. I heard a neat quote the other night from a friend. He said it was from mother Theresa, she said something like, “If you are judging someone there is no room to love them.” I’m guilty of that a lot.

Keep the posts coming. It’s good to dialog with you.

Steve
 
Yes.

(Chesterton’s book on Aquinas does explain the distinction well.)
So are all the sources on philosophy wrong? You seem to be hanging a hell of a lot on Aquinas (whose arguments might well be biased more towards purpose rather than design). But regardless of how Catholics think of him, Aquinas is but one in a long series of philosophers that stretch before and after him, and all authoritative sources of philosophy state quite clearly that the teleological argument can be associated with the argument from design. I’m afraid I am going to stick with them rather than with Chesterton (who was, after all, a novelist and poet, not a philosopher).

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Hi Alec

From an engineering perspective and I know you probably have more experience and knowledge in that area than I do, you have to admit that the concept of irreducible complexity is used all the time, especially in the area of software design.
Is it really? I don’t have to admit any such thing because I have no idea what you are talking about. Just how is “irreducible complexity” used in software design and precisely how is that relevant to Behe’s (now discredited) arguments about irreducible complexity in biochemical pathways?

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Well, it certainly isn’t amenable to empirical observation - we agree on that.

If you are proposing that therefore it is amenable to reason, I have to disagee. Mathematics is amenable to reason, because given certain simple easily acceptable axioms, you can build the whole edifice. It seems to me that Limbo does not fall into that category - belief in its existence is entirely arbitrary - what possible rational basis can anyone have for believing or not believing in it? In other words, it cannot be known, so the spectacle of senior people in the Church contributing to a commission and pronouncing on its (non)-existence is an exercise in profound futility.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Reasoning can also be based on revealed truths. For example, I have two children. You now know something about me you could not have reasoned your way to, simply by revelation.

Whether or not such reasoning is “an exercise in profound futility” would depend entirely on how trustworthy the source of revelation is.
 
Hi again. Okay, I read the entire Stanford article on teleological arguments (the article does explicitly identify teleological and design arguments with each other). It quoted Paley’s argument from design; it quoted Hume’s criticisms of design arguments (several times); it quoted tons of people, including even Chesterton once (who was tons of people in and of himself).

It MENTIONED Aquinas once and quoted from him NOT AT ALL.

So I’m sticking with my analysis: Aquinas’s fifth proof is a teleological argument, but not necessarily a design argument. Perhaps this is why it didn’t fit in too well with the article? Just guessing.

However, I’m also inclined to drop this particular point; perhaps I’ve spent a disproportionate amount of time discussing it when more serious things are about. :yup:
 
Great. You can find God in love, art, as well as nature.

So you are not totally limited. Since you are open you can find God.

Faith is opening the mind and heart to God. Continue to listen.
Hi buffalo 🙂

I’m emersed in the Arts and Nature on a daily basis outside of my regular commitments. Their hasn’t been much that I haven’t done in my lifetime. Never lost in the wilderness for “creative” unexplored things to do. I don’t find God in those activities. What I do find is that when I can’t get it moving in the right direction from being frustrated with myself, I rant to Jesus, “Aren’t you going to help me!” 😃 It works. I usually work on about three creative things at a time. My recent art project is with Fire. I’ve learned how to capture the smoke on paper and create …(can’t tell ya since it is a surprise.) The fire singed the tips of my long blonde hair and my green eyes saw flames. There is always an element of danger with fire but the Holy Spirit was definately present and saved me from harm. 😉
 
Thank you for your concern, and grudging acceptance that I am not “totally limited” which is hugely charitable, but I am an MBTI “thinker” so appeals to emotion don’t cut much ice with me.

Faith is believing things without evidence - faith is a deliberate suppression of our critical faculties - faith is the acceptance of unwarranted beliefs. It’s time we gave it up and stopped treating it as a virtue.

We were talking about the fact that science is the only reliable way to discover knowledge about the natural world, that it needs no belief in supernatural phenomena or gods of any kind to do its job, and that therefore it is, as I claimed, sufficient unto itself.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Alec, I do understand where you are coming from but I hope you won’t disregard what I wrote above. Here is my point of view, you already know I love science. Science is grand for popping wheelies just look at the Telsa -a fun economical joy ride but creativity takes a U turn and a whole new set of dynamics with a different venue for the artist, poet, fiction writer, musician who use nature (everything and anything) as their palette for inspiration. You have to have faith in the success of any worthwhile endeavor. It can be an emotional rollarcoster ride filled with screams of joy and frustation. Ahhh, it’s what is known as the muse musing with you. 🙂
 
Reasoning can also be based on revealed truths. For example, I have two children. You now know something about me you could not have reasoned your way to, simply by revelation.

Whether or not such reasoning is “an exercise in profound futility” would depend entirely on how trustworthy the source of revelation is.
Well I didn’t reason my way to that knowledge as you say, you revealed it to me. You could be lying, of course, as you also acknowledge.

What do you think the revelation is on which the Commission based its reasoned decision that Limbo does not exist?

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
So I’m sticking with my analysis: Aquinas’s fifth proof is a teleological argument, but not necessarily a design argument. Perhaps this is why it didn’t fit in too well with the article? Just guessing.
I fully accept that Aquinas’s fifth way is more about purpose than design; and that it is a teleological argument. But that’s not where we started. You pulled me up for connecting the teleological argument to the argument from design, but I think I’ve shown that that is a conventional definition from authoritative philosophical sources and I am justifiued in identifying one with the other.

I agree though, that there are more important things to do than split hairs on this one 🙂

Alec
 
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