Is evolution a fact?

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Thanks heisenburg,
Reason I asked was Cambrian explosion, which I think is believed to have lasted 30 million years (A shorter period than the dating error). Also one particular species? evolved over a 5 million year period during that time.
I am a bit surprised at the certainty of these short periods of time given the large possible dating error, - which is probably greater than ±10% at 500MY.
Anyway…Ciao
 
At this point Im interested in websites that show actual photos of human fossils. Im interested in pages that also mention details like how many human fossils are out there and what is the oldest one they have.
Websites with pictures include:

Hominid Species, which has links to pictures of the fossils. The Illustrations page has direct links to all the illustrations without the descriptive text.

The Skulls Comparison is a commonly referenced picture. A and N are modern, the rest are fossils between 2.6 My and 30,000 y. Note that all the skulls have been scaled to the same size in this picture.

As to what the oldest human fossils are, that depends on what your definition of “human” is. Upright walking came earlier than the large brain. For upright walking try Sahelanthropus tchadensis, Orrorin tugenensis - both possibly bipedal, Ardipithecus ramidus - probably bipedal and Australopithecus anamensis - definitely bipedal. For a large brain try the early members of genus Homo, Homo habilis or Homo erectus for example.

rossum
 
Darwinism is as dead as the flat earth; Neo-Darwinism doesn’t resemble it much, and Punctuated Equilibrium not at all.
Of course this is pure unadulterated nonsense. If, by Darwinism, we mean the proposition that natural and sexual selection acts on variation and leads, over time, to the divergence of features and speciation, then it as alive and well as Newtonian mechanics. Neo-Darwinism is the sythesis of genetics and natural selection - genetic variation providing the source of variation that Darwin searched for in vain in his lifetime. And PE is a variation on neo-Darwinism - Gould does not disagree with the fundamental mechanism of mutation and natural selection. He says this about Darwin’s ideas:
“Darwin’s profound, and wonderfully simple, alternative cuts through centuries of assumptions about the unresolvable depth and complexity of natural order with a breathtakingly direct and concrete resolution.” “Any reasonably honest and intelligent biologist could easily understand that Darwin had identified a vera causa (or true cause) in natural selection.”
Of course, Dawkins routinely makes boneheaded factual errors in nearly all the sciences, especially physics (it involves math and logic, see, so of course he doesn’t know anything about it), but he’s still much, much smarter than “creationists.” He’s always saying it, so it must be true
So, since you make such strong claims against Dawkins let’s see you back them up. Why don’t you give us some instances of Dawkins’s routine “bone-headed factual errors” in physics… A few months ago you libelled Stephen Hawking (whose name you couldn’t even be bothered to spell right) and you ran away when I challenged you on it. I dare say you’ll hit and run this time too.

For the record, Dawkins’s conceptual work on the gene-centred framework of evolution is increasingly recognised as being important, profound and right.
In the “creationist” category, he includes Michael Behe, the originator of Intelligent Design theory and a PhD in molecular biology.
If you are going to libel someone and lionise someone else, it behoves you to get your facts right. Behe is not molecular biologist, but a biochemist. There is a huge difference between these disciplines, you know.
Dawkins doesn’t know an enzyme from an enema, but he feels qualified to dismiss Behe with, essentially, name calling.
This is the same Behe, who, under oath, admitted that in order for Intelligent Design to be a scientific theory then astrology would also have to be a scientific theory. This is the guy whose ‘theory’ has been exposed as no more than a rather sophisticated version of the argument from personal incredulity. The same guy who has been disowned by his own university department and has become a laughing stock in scientific circles. That Behe.
The fact that Behe has forgotten more biology than Dawkins ever knew means nothing;
*You *don’t know very much at all, do you? We have already established the fact that Behe is a biochemist, and not a biologist at all. Whereas Dawkins graduated as a zoologist at one of the world’s leading universities where he became a lecturer in zoology while he did his ground-breaking work in evolutionary theory. Your argument by libel and falsehood is quite disgraceful.
Personally I think Behe should have been content with his challenge to “gradual-changes” evolution, proving that some processes and structures are irreducibly complex, (blood clotting, for instance–if you take out one protein either all the blood clots or none of it does), and not posited any alternative explanation.
That’s fine, except that ‘irreducible complexity’ is a busted flush as no-one, not Behe, not anyone, is able to show that any biochemical pathway is necessarily irreducibly complex - co-option of pathways and scaffolding provide a perfectly adequate explanation for apparently irreducible processes - Behe’s work, while interesting for a year or two, is now, justifiably, regarded as fundamentally flawed.
I really do think his idea of irreducible complexity has killed (Neo)Darwinism.
You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but it is not shared by those who are qualified to judge. Not only is the concept of irreducible complexity now completely discredited, but, of course Behe has no hypothesis to put in its place - he’s not doing science - he’s doing religion.
But the problem is, thinking of any mechanism of development other than Darwinist orthodoxy, even so minor a heresy as Punctuated Equilibrium, has been complete anathema in science for so long that nobody can even think of any mechanisms except Darwin and God.
Stephen Gould died tragically early with a huge reputation, so what is all this nonsense about PE being anathema? There are any number of controversies and hotly debated topics about the mechanism of evolution, which, if you actually read and understand some biology will prevent you from making such glaring and embarassing mistakes in future.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
I’m joining this thread late, and haven’t read all the previous posts word for word.

I’m an engineer (scientist lite).

It seems possible to take DNA from e.g. a racoon, and diddle with it, and come up with e.g. a panda bear. We don’t know how now, but it seems within the realm of possibility.

However, Darwinian evolution says that the actual changes are not due to intelligent diddling. It’s due to totally random events - like radiation, 99.999999999% of which changes will degrade, rather than enhance the survivability of a species.

The darwinists claim that with infinite time, and an infinite number of elemental particles that eventually life will come about, then more advanced life, purely by random chance. That is probably correct. But as old as the universe is, it is NOT infinitely old. And as large as the universe is, it does NOT contain an infinite number of elemental particles. And to top things off, all the particles in the universe are not actively engaged in trial and error mutations.

The statistics don’t work out. There has not been enough time (by hundreds of orders of magnitude), nor have there been enough trial and error mutations/combinations (since there isn’t enough mass - again by hundreds of orders of magnitude) for even the most basic form of life to appear by random chance.

Now - if someone wants to argue that intelligent diddling could speed things up dramatically, OK. I buy that. 🙂

.
 
Here is a article which leads me to question whether or not this man is serious. Of course there is a distinction between micro and supermacro, it is infact “harder to observe directly” preciecely because the magnitudes are so large. The timeframe is so large that there are no observed cases and that undermines true science right there.
Your three part post is more saturated with errors and failures of logic than I have time to deal with, but I couldn’t let this pass without comment.

What you are, in effect, attempting to do here, is to redefine what constitutes science to suit your agenda. Fortunately, you are in no position to tell scientists what is ‘true’ science and what is not ‘true’ science.

If we were to follow your idiosyncratic definition, we would have to assert that not only is evolutionary biology not ‘real’ science, but neither is geology, petrology, palaeontology, cosmology, astrophysics, palaeoclimatology, palaeomagnetism, biogeography, continental history and so on.

Basically, you have made a poor argument against evolutionary biology - the ‘we have to have been there to observe it in action’ or ‘we must be able to repeat it in the lab’ arguments are made only by those with a religious motivation for re-defining science - a project, incidentally, that is doomed to failure.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
I’m still hoping to hear from anybody (pro or con) as to why Darwinian (or post-Darwinian) evolution is supposed to be a problem for belief in God. Anybody?
 
However, Darwinian evolution says that the actual changes are not due to intelligent diddling. It’s due to totally random events - like radiation, 99.999999999% of which changes will degrade, rather than enhance the survivability of a species.
Really?? Do you have a reliable source for that or is it some creationist propaganda that you have swallowed? I *know *that you don’t have a reliable source for it, because it is, in fact, not true. Most mutations are neutral and it is simply false propaganda and lies to assert that 99.999999999% of mutations are deleterious.
The darwinists claim that with infinite time, and an infinite number of elemental particles that eventually life will come about, then more advanced life, purely by random chance.
Scientists claim no such thing,. No respectable evolutionary biologist that I know has ever claimed that *infinite *time and an *infinite *number of elementary particles is needed for life to evolve. What you have presented is a gross straw man. Furthermore, if you knew anything about biology, you would know that no scientist claims that the evolutionary process relies on pure random chance. That is also a strawman of your own making (or a strawman presented by some abysmal creationist website that is telling you lies).
The statistics don’t work out. There has not been enough time (by hundreds of orders of magnitude), nor have there been enough trial and error mutations/combinations (since there isn’t enough mass - again by hundreds of orders of magnitude) for even the most basic form of life to appear by random chance.
You are very confident in these statements. So confident that you should be able to back up your assertions with quantifiable statistics, especially since you claim that it’s obvious, by hundreds of orders of magnitude. Please do so. Demonstrate with incontrovertible statistics why the vast majority of professional biologists are abject fools for accepting that life could have evolved in the 13.7 billion years that the universe has existed. It’s easy to make silly claims like you do - it’s much more difficult to back them up.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Correct. Evolution, or more specifically, Darwinism, that teaches the appearance of new species from lower to higher forms of life, is unprovable because it is not directly observable, and no transitional forms between species have even been close to have been identified.
Would you like to explain Acanthostega, Icthyostega, Pederpes finneyae, Tiktaalik, Tulerpeton, Greererpeton, Pandericthys, Gogonasus?

How about Caudipteryx, Byronosaurus, Microraptor gui, Sinornithosaurus, Protarchaeopteryx, ConfuciusornisWhat about Eomaia scansoria? Carsonella rudii? Ambolecetus? Durodon?

Castorocauda lutrasimilis? Cynognathus crateronotus?, Traversodontidae?

Australopithecus anamensis? Homo habilis? Homo erectus?

No transitionals? You are joking, aren’t you?

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
I’m still hoping to hear from anybody (pro or con) as to why Darwinian (or post-Darwinian) evolution is supposed to be a problem for belief in God. Anybody?
You won’t get it from me!

Peace

Tim
 
I’m still hoping to hear from anybody (pro or con) as to why Darwinian (or post-Darwinian) evolution is supposed to be a problem for belief in God. Anybody?
Vokimike: God created the universe however he wanted to. It could have been darwinian evolution, it could have been intelligent design. It might have even been created 6000 years ago although that doesn’t jibe with the facts.

For people that believe in God, we don’t care really.

For those who don’t want to believe in God, and need excuses not to (because of the ramifications), any excuse will do. Evolution does not itself lead to non-belief in God, but it sure seems like a good excuse if you don’t want to believe in God.

IMHO.

**And HECD2 **- I’m not a creationist. I believe that the “facts” of evolution (time scales, basic inheritance with modifications, geological evidence, etc. is all consistent and points to a 13.7 billion year old universe. I just don’t think random mutations and natural selection can get “basic matter” to “us” in 13.7 billion years, or even basic matter to the simplest form of DNA. I don’t keep links handy since I rarely discuss this, but I saw a basic probability calculation in a book a while back. Assume that every particle in the universe is involved in some kind random combination with other elemental particles or more complex particles. Assume so many random combinations per second. How long does it take to come up with the simplest form of DNA? The answer was something like 10^100 or 10^200 times what we think is the lifetime of the universe. You seem pretty smart, If you want to do your own such calculation and post it here, I’ll keep an open mind.

I’m too busy arguing about salvation and such to go deeper into this, much less make my own web site about it.
 
**And HECD2 **- I’m not a creationist. I believe that the “facts” of evolution (time scales, basic inheritance with modifications, geological evidence, etc. is all consistent and points to a 13.7 billion year old universe. I just don’t think random mutations and natural selection can get “basic matter” to “us” in 13.7 billion years, or even basic matter to the simplest form of DNA.
Well, you are entitled to believe whatever you like, even unto the tooth fairy or the flying spaghetti monster, but if you want other people to take it seriously you’ll have to explain why you think that, with supporting arguments.
I don’t keep links handy since I rarely discuss this, but I saw a basic probability calculation in a book a while back. Assume that every particle in the universe is involved in some kind random combination with other elemental particles or more complex particles. Assume so many random combinations per second. How long does it take to come up with the simplest form of DNA? The answer was something like 10^100 or 10^200 times what we think is the lifetime of the universe.
So you want us to believe you when you say that darwinian evolution and natural abiogenesis is impossible because you saw some calculation that you can’t remember in some book whose title you can’t remember, written by some author you can’t remember with qualifications that have just popped out of your memory for the time being? And you want us to believe that this really obvious and simple calculation that makes these things impossible has just been overlooked or ignored by the professional scientific community? Pull the other one!
You seem pretty smart, If you want to do your own such calculation and post it here, I’ll keep an open mind.
You are the one making the assertion - the burden is on you to provide evidence. I don’t gve two pins for your ‘open mind’ - you can think whatever you like and believe in whatever superstition takes your fancy, but what I won’t let you do unchallenged is to make magisterial but erroneous claims such as “99.999999999% of which changes will degrade” or “The statistics don’t work out. There has not been enough time (by hundreds of orders of magnitude), nor have there been enough trial and error mutations/combinations (since there isn’t enough mass - again by hundreds of orders of magnitude) for even the most basic form of life to appear by random chance.” when in fact you haven’t the slightest shred of evidence to back up your wild assertions.

Having said all that, try this: Seth Lloyd, Ultimate phyical limits to computation, Nature 406, 1047 (2000) and
Seth Lloyd, Programming the Universe, Jonathan Cape 2006 reviewed by Ekert, The universe’s quantum monkeys, Nature 445, 366 (2007).

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
I am not a scientist.

I am not going to get involved in the war, if there is one.
There shouldn’t be one faith and reason can’t contradict each other
I am going to read and learn.

I have often believed that most of the scientists believe in evolution.
No one “believes” in evolution. It is not a matter of faith.

There are two parts to evolution: (1) the Fact of evolution as evidenced from observable data, and (2) the theory of evolution which suggests natural selection as the mechanism for the observable facts.

The theory fits the preponderance of the evidence so well that the theory is considered a virtual certainty which is as close as modern science gets to using the word “law” or “proof”
I have never studied the actual numbers.

Numbers: It might be 60/40 or 99/1 or some other ratio.
Numbers of what? :confused:
Concerning the believe statement: if the actual scientist has not done the research, then she believes the other scientists who have actually done the research.
No one has time to study each and every subject. That is one of the benefits of civilization, we can specialize.
I have seen micro evolution in the canine populations of the world.

I have never seen macro evolution.
There is no difference between macro & micro
You can’t just be a little bit evolved
Either it happens or it doesn’t unless you can suggest a mechanism for limiting variance
BTW there have been many observed instances of speciation
Well, like I said, I am going to watch.

Oh, I believe God created all things!!!
As do I. Evolution was one of the mechanisms He used.
How He did it, I do not know nor comprehend.
Learning how through the sciences has increased my appreciation of the wonder of creation.
Scientists, let the logomachy commence.
We’ve done this many many many many………many times before.

I’m not sure why people insist on creating controversy where there isn’t one.
 
I have not followed this board carefully, that is, the evolution conversations.

I come and go.

I truly was looking to learn.

I do not like fights.

Concerning my poor phrase about numbers: I was wondering if in the world of science it is 100 % agree with evolution.

Are the number 70 % agree and 30 % do not agree? (50/50, etc.)

The other concern was: Is there just one model or two or 40 models?

Sorry about any problems my lack of knowledge causes.

I am truly sorry; I have no desires to start fights.

Perhaps I used a poor word with logomachy, but I was trying to be a little silly.

Again, I am most interested in learning.
 
I used the word believe among scientists.

I did not mean religious belief.

But it seems to me that fellow people of science do believe each other.

Therefore they, in a strict sense of the word, do not know.

They must believe others (at least it seems that way to me).

But it is still believe, and not know.

At least I would think.

Well, I just wanted to try to clear up my poor wording of those two ideas.

SORRY!
 
Pope Pius XII in the encyclical Humani generis:
“The Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, insofar as it inquiries into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter.”
Many Catholics seem to believe it is not debatable, I learned in classes I teach (Rcia) to simply explain it is still open to debate, but not here. I generally have a well-respected elderly priest speak on the subject to reduce the tension. Who wants to argue with an 80-year-old priest?

Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, ** and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.**
Reads a lot like Evolution simplified to what my children could have understood when they were young.
God could have created us in a day, but I doubt he feels the need to rush anything, and a few billion years are not out of the question.
 
I’m joining this thread late, and haven’t read all the previous posts word for word.

I’m an engineer (scientist lite).
Me too 👍
…However, Darwinian evolution says that the actual changes are not due to intelligent diddling. It’s due to totally random events - like radiation, 99.999999999% of which changes will degrade, rather than enhance the survivability of a species.
While there are random elements to it
No one claims that evolution is a truly random process
Much of it is deterministic
As an engineer you should understand the difference
… That is probably correct. But as old as the universe is, it is NOT infinitely old. And as large as the universe is, it does NOT contain an infinite number of elemental particles.
No one says “infinite” time or “infinite” numbers of particles
We have a pretty good handle on the age and size of the Earth

Do you know how many molecules there are in a glass of water? (Come on you remember Avogadro’s number from school…….10^23 or some similar ridiculously large number) or how many collisions between molecules take place in that glass every second? Ever take any kinetics courses?

How many molecules are in the ocean? How many collisions in a billion years?
And to top things off, all the particles in the universe are not actively engaged in trial and error mutations.
Are you suggesting that science claims that molecules make active choices?
They follow predictable laws and mechanisms. That is why it is not a truly random process.
 
Most mutations are neutral. One gene changes in the code for the production of hemoglobin. The hemoglobin has valine instead of glutamine in half of their hemoglobin. (The other gene is normal) The afflicted African person has red blood cells that bend around, and have a fraction of the lifespan of normal blood cells. This aspect is bad However, unlike those around them, they are resistant to malaria. The malaria parasite is killed when the red blood cells they try to infect rupture. This is a good thing. Fairly neutral.
 
You do get offended when I point out the nakedness of your Amatama, don’t you?
Of course this is pure unadulterated nonsense. If, by Darwinism, we mean the proposition that natural and sexual selection acts on variation and leads, over time, to the divergence of features and speciation, then it as alive and well as Newtonian mechanics.
Newtonian mechanics are deader than dead, although they’re still used for most physics within a given geodesic frame. With the understanding that they are a simplification.
Neo-Darwinism is the sythesis of genetics and natural selection - genetic variation providing the source of variation that Darwin searched for in vain in his lifetime. And PE is a variation on neo-Darwinism - Gould does not disagree with the fundamental mechanism of mutation and natural selection. He says this about Darwin’s ideas:
“Darwin’s profound, and wonderfully simple, alternative cuts through centuries of assumptions about the unresolvable depth and complexity of natural order with a breathtakingly direct and concrete resolution.” “Any reasonably honest and intelligent biologist could easily understand that Darwin had identified a vera causa (or true cause) in natural selection.”
I did exaggerate the difference between Neo and “Paleo” Darwinism. Mea culpa. But the only difference between Darwinism and several other theories of origins then current is that Darwin proposed slow, gradual changes. Which Punctuated Equilibrium obviously contradicts. Gould had to heap praise on Darwin so the ideologues wouldn’t castigate him (and Dawkins did anyway, by the way), but in fact he contradicts the one unique trait of Darwinism.
So, since you make such strong claims against Dawkins let’s see you back them up. Why don’t you give us some instances of Dawkins’s routine “bone-headed factual errors” in physics… A few months ago you libelled Stephen Hawking (whose name you couldn’t even be bothered to spell right) and you ran away when I challenged you on it. I dare say you’ll hit and run this time too.
Yeah, I hit and run–if by that you mean having personal issues that necessitated me being away from the computer for some months. And it is not libel to say that Stephen Hawking did what he did, which was leave his wife for a younger woman–it’s irrelevant to his science, but his morality was the topic under discussion. I don’t know what you mean about spelling his name, and frankly I don’t give a tinker’s damn.

As to Dawkins, how about neutrinos? He said “one” of them passes through your body every minute…um, no, Rick, try several billion every second. He called exponential growth “growth as a power function,” which does not exist. He does not know the difference between a cosmic ray and a gamma ray.

How about “memes?” Not intelligent enough to know he’s a) in self-contradiction, positing the reality of the nonmaterial i.e. thoughts and b) ripping off ideas from the Epicureans, he made up the idea of ideas propagating themselves like genes.
 
If you are going to libel someone and lionise someone else, it behoves you to get your facts right. Behe is not molecular biologist, but a biochemist. There is a huge difference between these disciplines, you know.
I was writing from memory. I knew he was a biochemist; I think it’s one of the other guys who’s a molecular biologist. You win one. I wasn’t, however, lionizing Behe (with whom I really don’t agree), but pointing out that all Dawkins ever did, in regard to ID theory, was call names and sneer. He never tried to contradict the research because he was not qualified. He did say remarkably stupid things, though, like “But then you still have to explain the complexity of God.” Skimming the chapter headings of Summa Theologiae (as in, ‘On the Simplicity of God’) might have made him hold his tongue.
This is the same Behe, who, under oath, admitted that in order for Intelligent Design to be a scientific theory then astrology would also have to be a scientific theory. This is the guy whose ‘theory’ has been exposed as no more than a rather sophisticated version of the argument from personal incredulity. The same guy who has been disowned by his own university department and has become a laughing stock in scientific circles. That Behe.
Being disowned by those with an ideological interest in disowning you means not a damn thing–ask Copernicus. I’d like to see that testimony, though; that whole Pensylvania issue seemed pretty sordid and stupid on both sides. It seemed to involve Young-Earth Creationists prostituting ID theory to their own ends, from what I could see.
*You *don’t know very much at all, do you? We have already established the fact that Behe is a biochemist, and not a biologist at all. Whereas Dawkins graduated as a zoologist at one of the world’s leading universities where he became a lecturer in zoology while he did his ground-breaking work in evolutionary theory. Your argument by libel and falsehood is quite disgraceful.
I do not libel. I insult. Dawkins is also, by the way, not a stupid zoologist but a stupid ethologist–he studies animal behavior, specifically. He’s also a philosophically illiterate evolutionary biologist and a fascistic science writer. Most atheists are ashamed to associate with him. Have you heard about how he wants teaching children a religion to be declared child abuse? He’s insane.
That’s fine, except that ‘irreducible complexity’ is a busted flush as no-one, not Behe, not anyone, is able to show that any biochemical pathway is necessarily irreducibly complex - co-option of pathways and scaffolding provide a perfectly adequate explanation for apparently irreducible processes - Behe’s work, while interesting for a year or two, is now, justifiably, regarded as fundamentally flawed.
I do not know what you’re talking about; I would like to know what this research is. I really don’t care one way or another about evolution (evolutionists are, in Dawkins’ case at least, fascists and bad philosophers, but science is science), but I had thought irreducible complexity seemed a very good challenge to it. How was it disproven?

If ID has been disproven, why wasn’t it touted to the rooftops? Answer: because nobody thought it was necessary, because they “just knew” it was false. That’s not science.

The fact remains that Dawkins is not philosophically versed enough to make the claims he does. Dawkins self-appoints himself an authority on all the sciences–and gets them wrong.

PS, Cosmic rays are particle bombardment, mostly composed of protons and atomic nuclei. Gamma rays are high frequency electromagnetic radiation, made of photons.

PPS. Exponential or geometric growth is growth at a rate equal to a power of the current value, meaning that larger values grow more quickly than smaller ones. “Growth as a power function” is probably just a bad paraphrase of exponential.

I admit I was a little arrogant when I posted the first time, and should have double-checked a few references. But my main points remain valid–Dawkins is scum and those with an ideological commitment evolution are generally, amazingly, even more arrogant than I am (!), and also dangerously fascistic. I don’t know many religious people who want teacing atheism do be declared child abuse.

Apparently irreducible complexity has been disproven. I will concede the point, if and when I see the research.
 
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