Is evolution a fact?

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Actually, technology is the application or expression of science. Our cars could not be built without a thorough understanding of physics, chemistry, metalurgy and so on.
I missed the part where I said something incorrect.

Science is built upon philosophy, which means that before you even get to science you’ve decided something about God. The Christians who have a problem with today’s scientific conclusions recognize this.
 
I missed the part where I said something incorrect.
LOL…nice way to avoid it
Science is built upon philosophy, which means that before you even get to science you’ve decided something about God. The Christians who have a problem with today’s scientific conclusions recognize this.
Why do you continue to dig the hole deeper? Is this just a stream of consciousness on your part or do you have an argument?
 
Faith is believing things without evidence - faith is a deliberate suppression of our critical faculties - faith is the acceptance of unwarranted beliefs. It’s time we gave it up and stopped treating it as a virtue.

We were talking about the fact that science is the only reliable way to discover knowledge about the natural world
Alec
evolutionpages.com
No, we already covered this. How many children do I have? And how did you come to know this about me? Scientifically, or by faith?
 
It’s one boy and one girl, if you want more faith-based, non-scientifically derived information.
 
Why do you continue to dig the hole deeper? Is this just a stream of consciousness on your part or do you have an argument?
You’re a lawyer, yet you cannot see both sides of an argument?! :eek:

A lawyer is supposed to state the point that she disagrees with and then state the evidence for her position. You are not doing this.

Philosophy is logic and reasoning. If you took a logic course in college I bet it had a “philosophy” prefix or ID number. Science is the use of logic and reasoning to organize data from experience of phenomena. Imagine the reasoning a scientist would use without scientific data (as for questions where scientific data wasn’t possible). That would be “philosophy.”

To put it another way, the scientific discipline is the philosophical discipline applied to phenomena, which makes science the philosophy of nature in the same way that biology is the science of living things, and chemistry is the science of matter. This is why science is a branch of philosophy in the same way that physics, biology, and chemistry are branches of science.

Historically all branches of science were explicitly categorized as a branch of philosophy. Modernly we categorize them separately from philosophy and treat philosophy itself as a “humanity,” but our choice of terminology cannot erase the connection.

Science only deals with repeatable observable phenomena, which by definition means that it only deals with the “natural.” Consequently, science will tell us only what is natural. Philosophy is larger. Philosophy tells us whether or not natural is all that there is. Science, because of it’s built-in limitation, cannot tell us whether the supernatural exists. This leads to an important point: The existence of the supernatural is not a conclusion of science but rather a presuposition drawn from philosophy a step before you get to science. This is why an atheist can look at natural data and say, “See – God is not real,” while a theist looks at the same natural data and say, “This doesn’t say ‘no God’ on it.”

When you see a house you don’t even see the foundation, but it’s there and it’s what the rest relies upon. Take away the foundation and the rest comes tumbling down. Some Christians have known this for a very long time.
 
Science is built upon philosophy, which means that before you even get to science you’ve decided something about God. The Christians who have a problem with today’s scientific conclusions recognize this.
Scottm, important for Christians to remember that science has nothing to do with God. Alec has already mentioned, “Philosphy of science is a discipline which investigates the methods, structures, limitations, assumptions and reliability of science. It touches on how science works and what we can reliably know by using the scientific method.”
I see the logic in irreducible complexity. This is where the rubber meets the road. There is no driver for adaptation when you see complex functions that can only work together but are independent. The logical conclusion given the evolutionary model is that the functions must have always existed together. You don’t have to believe the functions were designed you only have to understand that there is no explainable mechanism on how they cam about. A theory without a valid mechanism is a religion.
Pontifical Academy of Sciences Academician Peter H. Raven, Professor of Biology, and a chairman of the AAAS (American Association for the Advancement of Science) said, “The ID movement argues that random mutation in nature and natural selection can’t explain the diversity of life forms or their complexity and that these things may be explained only by an extra-natural intelligent agent. This is an interesting philosophical or theological concept, and some people have strong feelings about it. Unfortunately, it’s being put forth as a scientifically based alternative to the theory of biological evolution. Intelligent design theory has so far not been supported by peer-reviewed, published evidence.”

aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id.shtml
http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2002/1106id.shtml
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/own/documents/raven.html
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/own/documents/raven.html
I personally know Peter Raven and have had the pleasure working with him. Hi Peter:wave:

I need to get back to this topic later as I promised elsewhere on on the Apologetics board. An emergency has arisen. I need to get to the hospital.
 
No, no mistake. Evolutionists make the unsupported claim that cells are not Irreducibly Complex because they are made up of parts that were used before for other things and later, one or more of these parts just happened to attach themselves to a precise spot, and just happened to be the right size, to add functionality to a cell. Baloney.
There are three different definitions of Irreducible Complexity proposed by ID, see here. The first of these exists, and is present in cells. You are incorrect to say that this form of IC is denied. The problem for ID is that this form of IC (Knockout IC) can evolve. For example here is a mutation by mutation example of the evolution of such an IC system: Line of Descent. This is taken from Lenski’s paper. As a second example there is the Behe and Snoke paper, yes that is the same Professor Behe.

Behe’s original argument was:
  • Irreducible Complexity cannot evolve.
  • Some biological systems are IC.
  • Hence some biological systems cannot have evolved.
Behe has now abandoned this argument because it has been shown that the first statement is incorrect, IC systems can evolve. His new argument relies on probabilties:
  • Irreducible Complexity is unlikely to evolve.
  • Some biological systems are IC.
  • Hence some biological systems are unlikely to have evolved.
This relates to the third definition of IC in the ISCID link I gave above. The argument is now about putting numbers onto exactly how unlikely IC is and whether this rules it in or out as a realistic possibility.

You would do well to abandon Behe’s original version, as Behe has done himself.
Put a bunch of car parts on the ground and they will not assemble themselves. A billion years later, still nothing.
Car parts do not reproduce other car parts, with variations. Your analogy is not a good one.
Irreducible Complexity is good science.
It is, but it does not disprove evolution.

rossum
 
Scottm, important for Christians to remember that science has nothing to do with God.
Important for Christians to remember is why science has nothing to do with God.

The reason why is that science deals only with repeatable observable phenomena. God is not repeatable, so God is excluded a priori from science. But God can be and is studied in philosophy because philosophy, as the superset of science, does not limit human logic and reasoning to only observable repeatable data. “God did not do this” cannot be a scientific conclusion, but it can be a philosophical conclusion.
 
According to the Library on this web site. Genesis is real history. Polygenism is not to be believed. Adam and Eve were our first parents who freely disobeyed God. Which is why Jesus Christ came to live and die for us.

Science can say whatever it wants but is biased toward natural explanations. It turns out television programs that attempt to explain the plagues brought against Egypt or some unproven nonsense about the tomb of Jesus. Looking at this from a Christian perspective, this is being done to deny the reality of God and place all miracles into the “you still believe in all that stuff? Why? There’s no reason to” category.

So, right now, the “Anti-God Explanation Industry” is working at full power to get rid of God. Books, TV programs, DVDs, you name it.

God bless,
Ed
 
I honestly am not trying to be smart-alecky or mean-spirited—but really, come on. You’ve never encountered evidence for transitional forms?
of course he has. I’ve seen the evidence presented on transitional forms here at least 4 times now with plenty of citations. They just rehash the same old arguments but its them who are against the Church on this one…NO argument…
You’re a lawyer, yet you cannot see both sides of an argument?! :eek:

A lawyer is supposed to state the point that she disagrees with and then state the evidence for her position. You are not doing this.

Philosophy is logic and reasoning. If you took a logic course in college I bet it had a “philosophy” prefix or ID number. Science is the use of logic and reasoning to organize data from experience of phenomena. Imagine the reasoning a scientist would use without scientific data (as for questions where scientific data wasn’t possible). That would be “philosophy.”

To put it another way, the scientific discipline is the philosophical discipline applied to phenomena, which makes science the philosophy of nature in the same way that biology is the science of living things, and chemistry is the science of matter. This is why science is a branch of philosophy in the same way that physics, biology, and chemistry are branches of science.

Historically all branches of science were explicitly categorized as a branch of philosophy. Modernly we categorize them separately from philosophy and treat philosophy itself as a “humanity,” but our choice of terminology cannot erase the connection.

Science only deals with repeatable observable phenomena, which by definition means that it only deals with the “natural.” Consequently, science will tell us only what is natural. Philosophy is larger. Philosophy tells us whether or not natural is all that there is. Science, because of it’s built-in limitation, cannot tell us whether the supernatural exists. This leads to an important point: The existence of the supernatural is not a conclusion of science but rather a presuposition drawn from philosophy a step before you get to science. This is why an atheist can look at natural data and say, “See – God is not real,” while a theist looks at the same natural data and say, “This doesn’t say ‘no God’ on it.”

When you see a house you don’t even see the foundation, but it’s there and it’s what the rest relies upon. Take away the foundation and the rest comes tumbling down. Some Christians have known this for a very long time.
Is there a point in here somewhere?
According to the Library on this web site. Genesis is real history. Polygenism is not to be believed. Adam and Eve were our first parents who freely disobeyed God. Which is why Jesus Christ came to live and die for us.

Science can say whatever it wants but is biased toward natural explanations. It turns out television programs that attempt to explain the plagues brought against Egypt or some unproven nonsense about the tomb of Jesus. Looking at this from a Christian perspective, this is being done to deny the reality of God and place all miracles into the “you still believe in all that stuff? Why? There’s no reason to” category.

So, right now, the “Anti-God Explanation Industry” is working at full power to get rid of God. Books, TV programs, DVDs, you name it.

God bless,
Ed
So when will you be retracting this stratement Ed? You’ve posted on the other thread about genesis and evolution that you will rely on Pope Benedict on this …so since you have by now read “In the beginning…” you realize you are speaking against doctrine now? correct? we are waiting.
 
What? I have not changed my position. What doctrine are you talking about?

God bless,
Ed
 
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