Humani Generis clearly states permission to research and discuss does not imply allowed to accept and that evolution must not be accepted or taught as fact - why oh why accept the way out,weird and wacky and reject the original - there just is no bus except in imigination imho - twincAaannd we just tossed Pius XII under the bus.
correction: Google search [response to L Conte Jr] - twincIf it is an absolute that creation was instantaneous then we still have metered and ordered time from that point in time to deal with. I think you’re presenting one possibilty as an absolute.
I am saying that I am quite aware what the Popes have said and they have not said nor can they say that pseudo/phoney evolution that never ever did happen or could happen is compatible with the faith and what the Church teaches or can teach - so you and many others have unknowingly or knowingly been misled and misread or misinterpreted what the Popes have said or what the Church has taught and teaches - reason and commonsense imho also make it impossible for me to accept evolution which has not and cannot happen - twincI’m not sure what the first part of this is supposed to mean, but I am not speaking for myself, I have only pointed to the Church’s teaching and the statements of the Pope and his predecessors. I am not saying that any Pope has “unbound” anything - I am saying that the Church and the Popes understand what the Church teaches, and they say that evolution is compatible with the faith. If some think that seems incompatible with past teaching, I am confident that the Church and the Pope know what they are doing and are correct that it is not. Its sounds to me like you are saying that the latest four Popes are wrong about that, that despite the Church’s teaching on the issue you know more about what the Church teaches than the Pope or the Church itself. If that is not what you are saying, then what are you saying?
as with evolution there also was no big bang - so all this is just gobbledegook and non science and nonsense - there will be a big bang to end everything and prove big bangs do not create but destroy and do not originate ex nihilo - so again and again pseudo/phoney science,in the guise of true science and reason and commonsense gets it base over apex and vice versa and all mixed up and confused but accepted by many believe it or not - twincThe Church has explained that creatio ex nihilo is not incompatible with either the Big Bang or evolution. From Communion and Stewarship:
Again, I will accept Pope Benedict’s analysis of this aspect of the faith. Why won’t you?
I believe I indirectly eluded to the fact that Catholic creationists do not need permission to accept creation. I appreciate that in your opinion, there was no evolutionary process and you are entitled to that opinion. However, what the OP stated they were not here to discuss the validity of evolution, and requested, ‘Please do not try to persuade myself or others whether or not evolution is correct; it is not the topic of this discussion.’ That being case, I’m not going to get into the validity of evolution.the reason why God played no part in the evolutionary process was because there was no evolutionary process according to God and simul et ex nihilo according to His church - btw unlike so called pseudo/phoney Catholic evolutionists,Catholic creationists do not need permission to accept creationism - pseudo/phoney Catholic evolutionists have been described as such by real evolutionists and stated as having one foot in each camp etc - twinc
“Many Catholics” like the last five Popes and virtually all Catholic theologians? Are those the Catholics you believe are not in conformity with what you say the Church “really” teaches?in a complete reversal,many Catholics have been and are being led to accept that creationists,like myself,have somehow and for some strange reason got it wrong and are not in conformity with what the Church really teaches - the opposite is the case and must be accepted once again and soon and sooner rather than later - why this urge and itching ears to accept way out,weird and wacky alternatives to the sane and sound and true original - the mere fact that the Church allows the proper and improper sense to be accepted means that the creationists accept the proper sense whilst others have an urge to accept the way out,weird and wacky improper sense - twinc
This is getting silly. You stick your fingers in your ears and inisist that the Church is not saying what it has been saying for a hundred years, and insist that the Pope does not mean what he says, and that Church documents do not mean what they say… and on and on. I can see now that you don’t actually want to have a conversation about what the Church teaches, you just want to try to convince people you are literally more Catholic than the Pope. That is not a conversation I want to particpate in.I am saying that I am quite aware what the Popes have said and they have not said nor can they say that pseudo/phoney evolution that never ever did happen or could happen is compatible with the faith and what the Church teaches or can teach - so you and many others have unknowingly or knowingly been misled and misread or misinterpreted what the Popes have said or what the Church has taught and teaches - reason and commonsense imho also make it impossible for me to accept evolution which has not and cannot happen - twinc
surprised, but why so since this was the case in the Arian heresy and also during the Reformation - most Catholics are not yet awake or aware of this crisis and deep division in Catholicism and Christianity and are hankering to spread this division and error and crisis via bogus evangelisation and bogus unity - like charity true unity and evangelisation should begin at home - the Church finally awoke to find itself Arian,whilst still calling itself Catholic in the name of the faithful few,so now when the Church awakes from this chaos,crisis and division it will find itself evolutionist except for the faithful few - hopefully and prayerfully this will be sooner rather than later - btw it seems our present Pope stated that He accepted evolution because it takes millions of years for coal and oil to form - it seems his scientific advisers did not correctly advise him that in the laboratory this can be done overnight and under field conditions in a few days - this is why Catholics have been rightly advised to consult their Catholic experts and specialists in both the disciplines of theology and science - for Catholics these can and may be found,together in unity,at www.kolbecenter.org - twinc“Many Catholics” like the last five Popes and virtually all Catholic theologians? Are those the Catholics you believe are not in conformity with what you say the Church “really” teaches?
The only direct condemnation of Darwin I’m aware of is the Council of Cologne in 1860, a provincial council.Humani Generis clearly states permission to research and discuss does not imply allowed to accept and that evolution must not be accepted or taught as fact - why oh why accept the way out,weird and wacky and reject the original - there just is no bus except in imigination imho - twinc
Uh huh. Quote mining is fun but only quotes in context count.for Catholics these can and may be found,together in unity,at www.kolbecenter.org - twinc
If you contend that God maintains the universe at every point in time of its existence, i.e. that creation is an ongoing process and not just the beginning Big Bang / quantum fluctuation - then evolution is perfectly compatible with Christianity. You basically have laws of physics (observable properties of matter and energy) which give rise to certain behaviours - e.g. initial creation of carbon which is able to bind 4 atoms and other carbon atoms to form long chains, ability to bind nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen and phosphorus resulting in RNA, DNA and ultimately proteins; and so on. With time and through various processes these molecules can form polymers and act as templates for each other through laws of physics and intramolecular and intermolecular forces, and ultimately you have evolving life.You can “fit” evolution into Catholicism to a point. If you are Catholic, you must believe that “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Some say that evolution was the process by which God did this.
But, if you look at evolution as it is portrayed today, as an alternative to “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”, then it is not compatible.
the problem is your unawareness and that of others who unlike you are not even aware of the Council of Cologne or even of the faith of the Church Fathers or the Faith of our Fathers - I made great efforts to point you in the right direction,not just as regards the Council of Cologne but also that of Florence,Lateran IV and Vatican 1 - so besides Catholic Fanily News at www.cfnews.org/sung - pio.htm also via Google search box at [Catholic doctrine of Creation/video] watch,listen.absorb and accept exactly what the Church teaches and has always taught and will and must always teach - btw also see Catechism at CCC327 - twincThe only direct condemnation of Darwin I’m aware of is the Council of Cologne in 1860, a provincial council.
Which is why, in 1996, John Paul II restated not only Humani but Provendentissimus Deus, promulgated by Leo XXIII in 1893 (which is restating Vatican I and ultimately Aquinas) that truth cannot contradict truth. Humani also carried forward the teaching from Pius XII himself in his encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu, which restated the manner in which biblical revelation was to be approached. Additionally Humani restated the response to Cardinal Suhard (Archbishop of Paris) in regards to the teaching of the historicity of Genesis 1-3.
So even without looking and Dei Verbum in Vatican II, even without referring to The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church (1993) we can see that the Papacy had moved biblical interpretation from a strictly literalist (perspicacious specifically) interpretation of scriptural revelation.
The 1909 decision put forward by the Papal Biblical Commission on the creation myths were effectively put aside. The idea that we can read Genesis 1-3 as history as the modern audience understands it, the central point of the PBC’s statement, was entirely undermined by Pius XII in the two aforementioned encyclicals. The PBC’s decisions required the assent of the Pope, much as decisions put forward by the Holy Office did. Clarification by a later Pope is not inappropriate where required.
What’s more if we are to take in the totality of revelation we must look at the other creation myths. What of the end of Job, of Proverbs 8, even of the prelude to the Gospel of John? Do we ignore the Wisdom literature and a Gospel of the New Testament simply because of the placement of Genesis at the beginning of the canon of scripture?
Yes there are problems with Roman Catholic theology and modern evolutionary science. If, as Humani says, the human body could have come into existence through evolutionary mechanisms then what of the pre-Adamites, those who shared the physical form of Adam but did not share his grace? And what of Original Sin? If, as is stated by current evolutionary theory, there was not original pair, literally no single pair from which all humanity sprang what do we do with the theology of Original Sin?
If you contend the above “God maintains the universe at every point…snip…and ultimately you have evolving life.” at an evolutionist conference, you realize that they will boot you out. Because, your Catholicism is not compatible with evolution.If you contend that God maintains the universe at every point in time of its existence, i.e. that creation is an ongoing process and not just the beginning Big Bang / quantum fluctuation - then evolution is perfectly compatible with Christianity. You basically have laws of physics (observable properties of matter and energy) which give rise to certain behaviours - e.g. initial creation of carbon which is able to bind 4 atoms and other carbon atoms to form long chains, ability to bind nitrogen, oxygen, hydrogen and phosphorus resulting in RNA, DNA and ultimately proteins; and so on. With time and through various processes these molecules can form polymers and act as templates for each other through laws of physics and intramolecular and intermolecular forces, and ultimately you have evolving life.
Perhaps, but we’re not at an evolutionist conference, and we’re not discussing how some evolutionists view Catholicism. The OP’s question relates to the possibility of entry into the Catholic Church, not an evolutionist society. It is not necessary to appease some evolutionists, or meet their criterion, in order to be baptized and enter into the sacramental life of the Church.If you contend the above “God maintains the universe at every point…snip…and ultimately you have evolving life.” at an evolutionist conference, you realize that they will boot you out. Because, your Catholicism is not compatible with evolution.
exactly as I said,phoney/pseudo Catholic evolutionists - it seems the real Evolutionists know Catholicism better than Catholic evolutionists - twincIf you contend the above “God maintains the universe at every point…snip…and ultimately you have evolving life.” at an evolutionist conference, you realize that they will boot you out. Because, your Catholicism is not compatible with evolution.
Here is a quote from the link you have provided.I invite everyone to read the following:
timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article1645453.ece
Peace,
Ed
Further to your link, I would like to add this quote, taken from Pope Benedict’s address to German Students:I invite everyone to read the following:
timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article1645453.ece
Peace,
Ed